French Language On Packaging

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Ottawa, ON
iamcanadian said:
Wednesday's Child said:
I believe all transportation, air and sea, international communications are transmitted in English or what passes for English. Why? I have no idea.

This is because English is a simpler language that is easier to learn. French like most of the dead or dying laguages are too cumbersome and complicated with too much enphasis on dscriminating people's level of education and too full of pomp and circumstance that have no value and make the language cumbersome to apply in our fast paced communications of today and the faster days to come.

These are languages geared more to creating and maintaining class distinctions, to hold down parts of the population so elitists can feel superior simply by studing a silly language more than another person did; which concepts are no longer acceptable to most people who prefer to treat all people as equals and avoid inherant discrimination founded on form rather than substance.

Judging from the erudition (lacke thereof) expressed here, I'm guessing that you're aproud unilingual who, when ask, raises his head in triumph and say: I, Sir, can speak only one language; and God forbid that I should ever learn another!
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

Finder said:
FiveParadox said:
I agree Hank C that the issue of having French appearing on packaging outside of Québec is somewhat of a non-issue. I like having French on products. It makes them seem intended for Canada — I feel somewhat "cheated" when I see products that are not packaged in both languages; they do not seem "complete" to me.

Again, the same sentiment as you, Hank C — that either English or French should be known by an immigrant before citizenship is granted (unless, of course, there are extenuating circumstances, such as citizenship stemming from refugee status, particular referrals from the Minister of Citizenship, and et cetera).

I agree with both of you.... but i hate to do this and play the devils advocate again.... but you both relieze that the Canadian railroad was built by Chiness Workers who didn't really speak a lick of english, were underpaid and treated like slave labour and sometimes when completed work were kicked out the country!

Just a little history for you guys there. Take it as you will.

Yeah, and many Chinese left a China ruined by the imposition of the Opium trade bythe British, US and other countries! They're not called the Opium Wars for nothing, and they foreign invaders had managed to push the poison into the heart of the Chinese nation.
 

Knoss

Nominee Member
Feb 18, 2006
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Rockglen, Saskatchewan
iamcanadian wrote:
Wednesday's Child wrote:
I believe all transportation, air and sea, international communications are transmitted in English or what passes for English. Why? I have no idea.

This is because English is a simpler language that is easier to learn. French like most of the dead or dying laguages are too cumbersome and complicated with too much enphasis on dscriminating people's level of education and too full of pomp and circumstance that have no value and make the language cumbersome to apply in our fast paced communications of today and the faster days to come.
These are languages geared more to creating and maintaining class distinctions, to hold down parts of the population so elitists can feel superior simply by studing a silly language more than another person did; which concepts are no longer acceptable to most people who prefer to treat all people as equals and avoid inherant discrimination founded on form rather than substance.
[/quote]

Absolutly French is the third most common romantic language after Spanish and Portugeese.

Nice theory, sorry but you're wrong.

It's English because the majority of the people setting the rules, and driving international flying, are English speaking.
 

iamcanadian

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Nov 30, 2005
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www.expose-ontario.org
Machjo said:
Judging from the erudition (lacke thereof) expressed here, I'm guessing that you're aproud unilingual who, when ask, raises his head in triumph and say: I, Sir, can speak only one language; and God forbid that I should ever learn another!

No, English is my second language. I speak two others and I also understand French.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
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www.expose-ontario.org
Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

Knoss said:
It's English because the majority of the people setting the rules, and driving international flying, are English speaking.

You are entittled to your conspiracy theory about people directing world wide events by intentional thought and design, but I would suggest a natural unconspired evolutionary theory is more likely correct. The French Canadians hgave used your myth to gain advantages over the rest of Canadians.

Anyone who knows enough of the complex linguistic structures of French or one of the similar languages like Spanish, Portuguese and Italian and compares them to modern American English will tend to agree with me. English is much easier to learn and use as a second language.
 

Knoss

Nominee Member
Feb 18, 2006
62
0
6
Rockglen, Saskatchewan
That was a quote lol I should fix that but if you look at the statistics French is the sixth most commonly used language and the third most commonly used romantic language, like I said Spanish and Portugues come first.
 

Finder

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Dec 18, 2005
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Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

iamcanadian said:
How many people are aware that 20% of Quebec's population does not speak French?

What about the fact that only 7 Million Canadians speak french out of 32 Million. With 25 Million Canadians not speaking any French and with French Canadians only being 20% of Canada's whole population, how can it be justified that in today's closing ceremonies at the Olimpics the world got the impresion that Canada is primarily a French Speaking country.


yeah that doesn't sat much for about 25 million Canadians who have not learned Canada's official tongue. I agree with "iamcanadian" and we should push harder for more people to learn French... This is almost a crisis.. we should forget about english as you have already stated and rightfully so that english doesn't appear to be the problem but french is. But yes I agree with you 110% we need to do something about this fast. Perhaps increasing awarness of the french culture and tongue in Canada... That might work... Thanks for pointing out the crisis.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
iamcanadian said:
Wednesday's Child said:
English is morphing into a bastard puppy yet again of many tongues...

Which is as it should be as we strive for universal understanding, harmony and peace.

Nothing like everyone understanding everyone else to stop hate and hostility.

This is what I love about the English language above all others. It's simplicity and adaptability and ever changing character not fixated on stringent rules that are not adaptable.

This is the primary reason in my opinion that the English language "North American Version" that dominates because it is less discriminating and less structured and therefore more adaptable.

Oh, of course it'sthe language of peace!

"Hey Sam, this is only a thousand million dollars; according to the agreement, you were supposed to give me a billion!"

"Are you on drugs, Bill? A billion is a thousand million!"

"Oh you f*cking sl* pig! You know damned well that it means a million million, you little slug!"

(Two hours later in the local bar)

"Hey, Sam, your face ain't lookin' too good; what happenned?"

"I got into a fight with that low life Bill. I'm gonna kill 'im next time I see 'im! Damned I'm pissed! I wanna smoke a fag!" (as he bangs his fist on the table)

"Woa now, calm down Sam, we don't need another fight here!"

"Watcha talkin' about, Bob? I just wanna smoke a f*ckin' fag!"

(the gays in the bar start clearing the room to avoid an altercation, as Bob's niccotine fit goes unanswered!)

(next day, after recovering from a second fight in the bar when all the gays gagned up on him and pounded the sh*t out of him, he calls the local company to buy a an extra elevator for his business. The truck arrives with the elevator)

Oh, fer cryin' out loud, I meat an elavator that takes people up in buildings, not a f*ckin' grain elevator! Whadda ya think I'm runnin'? A farm or something? Damned, I need another fa... I mean.. cigarette! Now we need a lift fer cryin' out loud!

(so the driver who'd brought the elevator offers them a lift)

"Why are you stopping at the corner shop, girl?"

"Well, you said you needed a cigarette and wanted a lift."

I want the thing that takes you up and down shafts."

"Oh Sir, that's no way to talk to a woman! (as she slaps him on his bruised cheek!)

"Oh no, not that you moron! I meant a lift, that thing that takes you up and down building shafts!"




I think we all get the idea. And here's another interesting article:

by Kent JONES


The routine words and phrases to be used in messages between pilots and controllers must not be potential sources of confusion. In order to avoid ambiguity, there must be a one-to-one relationship between concepts and their spoken expression. Further, misnomers and other oddities would not inhabit a scientifically valid terminology.

Flaws in the application of English to the concepts of aviation can produce pilot errors which lead to fatalities, here and abroad. A few examples of them are cited below. They are extracted from The Pilot Reference to ATC procedures and Phraseology.

PHRASEOLOGY DEFECTS

A. NON-SINGULAR EXPRESSIONS FOR CONCEPTS (synonymous utterances)

1. Aviation is a worldwide activity, so pilots and controllers are likely to be in contact with their counterparts of all 189 nations. All the words and phrases used in Air Traffic Control are synonymously spoken in the 38 dialects of English and innumerable foreign accents, such as Spanglish. The FAA and ICAO uncritically accept all of these potential generators of pilot confusion.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRITISH AND IRISH ENGLISH English English, Scottish English, Scots, Welsh English, Irish English AUSTRALIAN AND NEW ZEALAND ENGLISH: Australian English, Aboriginal English, Maori English, New Zealand English EAST ASIAN ENGLISH: Philippines English, Hawaiian English, Singapore English, Hong Kong English, Malaysian English SOUTH ASIAN ENGLISH: Sri Lankan English, Bangladeshi English, Pakistani English,.Indian English AFRICAN ENGLISH: Nigerian English, Ghanaian English, Sierra Leone English, East African Englishes, South African English CARRIBEAN ENGLISH: Jamaican English, Patwa, Bahamian , Barbadian / Bajan, Trinidadian CANADIAN ENGLISH: Inuit English, Quebec English, Canadian Standard English, Atlantic Provinces English AMERICAN ENGLISH: Northern, Appalacian English, Southern, Western, African American Vernacular English / Ebonics, Native American Englishes FROM: English Around the World, from 1999 Encarta World English Dictionary.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.The following are examples of duplicate official FAA expressions idea. They are synonymous expressions, which should be reduced to only one.

a. Concept: fly around the airport FAA Expressions: CIRCLE THE AIRPORT, CIRCLE THE RUNWAY, GO AROUND.

b. Concept: after landing, turn around on the runway and travel toward the arrival end of the runway. FAA Expressions: TAXI BACK and BACK TAXI: Why this word reversal? Worse yet, the NTSB is opposed even to the use of this procedure. Precisely this maneuver was in progress when the worst crash in aviation history occurred, with 583 deaths. But the FAA persists in exposing the public to danger by using it.

c. Concept: this is a request for certainty about some information. FAA Expressions; SAY, VERIFY, CONFIRM. d. concept: command instant action. FAA Expressions: IMMEDIATELY, EXPEDITE and WITHOUT DELAY. These take a longer time to say than the simpler NOW would.

e. Concept: an exclamation from a pilot in trouble. MAYDAY and PAN-PAN . A pilot in trouble hardly cares about tiny differences in meaning of these two expressions.

f. Concept; tell your speed. FAA Expressions: SAY SPEED and SAY MACH NUMBER. g. Concept: watch out for a balloon. FAA Expressions: DERELICT BALLOON and UNMANNED BALLOON OVER... h. Concept: you may be approaching a severe danger due to wind. 8 FAA Expressions:: WINDSHEAR ALERT, ARRIVAL WINDSHEAR / MICROBURST ALERT, DEPARTURE WINDSHEAR / MICROBURST ALERT, LOW LEVEL WINDSHEAR ADVISORIES IN EFFECT, MICROBURST ADVISORIES IN EFFECT, MICROBURST ALERT, MULTIPLE WINDSHEAR / MICROBURST ALERTS, POSSIBLE WINDSHEAR OUTSIDE THE SYSTEM.

i. Concept: the paved area near the airport buildings. 3 FAA Expressions: RAMP = APRON = TARMAC. Three designators, one concept.

k. Concept: basis of the cited time 3 FAA Expressions: Greenwich Mean Time, GMT = Zulu time = UTC.

3. Synonymous measurements

TOPIC FAA REST OF WORLD distance nautical miles kilometers air pressure inches of mercury millibars runway length feet meters or kilometers weight pounds kilograms volume gallons liters

4. Synonymous phrases of Air Traffic Control TOPIC FAA ICAO desisting from an action hold stop move away exit vacate These are two examples in a list of 49, in which the FAA and the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) use different words for the same concept. The ICAO expressions are used everywhere outside the U.S. Pilots entering or departing from the U.S. must use two different sets of words. These are 49 opportunities for disastrous confusion.

B. NON-SINGULAR MEANINGS FOR WORDS AND PHRASES. (Homonyms, homophones, homographs). These expressions have ambiguous meanings, even within the aviation field.

a. TAXI can mean a helicopter, as in HOVER TAXI and AIR TAXI.. TAXI additionally can mean to move, as in driving a car. b. AIRCRAFT can mean either one aircraft or many aircraft. c FLIGHT TEST can deal with either 1. apparatus, or 2. persons. d. NOVEMBER is the name of the letter N. NOVEMBER is also given the meaning of an aircraft ID number. A third meaning of NOVEMBER is the month itself. e. TANGO is the name of the letter T. It also designates an air taxi, or helicopter. f. ZULU is the name of the letter Z. ZULU is also a basis for designating time at the Greenwich meridian. g. CONTACT APPROACH is a type of an approach to an airport. CONTACT APPROACH is also a command to radio the controller who handles approaches. h. GATE is a location at the terminal building. GATE is also a point in the sky. i. ROLL means to pivot in the air about the longitudinal axis of the airplane. ROLL is additionally a forward motion, as in takeoff roll. j. SLOT is a part of the forward edge of some wings. SLOT also a time interval for a takeoff. k. REMAIN deals with location, but also with radio frequencies.

k. Homophones. English contains 7,700 homophones. BRAKE sounds like BREAK; ONE and WON TWO, as in two two thousand, sounds like TO, as in to two thousand. FOR sounds like FOUR EIGHT and ATE MISSED sounds like MIST RIGHT sounds like WRITE HEAR and HERE

l. Homographs CONtent and conTENT appear identical on a printed page. The same problem besets REFuse and reFUSE. English contains 1,440 homographs.

m. Homonyms. English contains more than 50,000 homonyms. These words with more than one meaning are the basis of the abundant puns in English. This trait, amusing in social conversations, is a contributor to confusion in aviation usage. CLEAR - This can mean free of obstructions, clarity of expression, transparency, permission to do something. FLARE - Can be a magnesium candle, a landing maneuver, or the termination of a tube. OUT - Can mean no reply needed, OUT OF =not in service, FLAMEOUT = flame lost. TAKE OFF - can mean start to fly, a list derived for an estimate, a spline delivering power to a machine, etc. RIGHT - can mean either a direction, correct, or a right to do something. LEFT - can mean a direction, or departed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C. ODDITIES: IMPLAUSIBLE CHOICES OF WORDS AND PHRASINGS

1. Phrases with deceptive wording. a. GO AHEAD is intended to urge speaking, but it can and does erroneously lead to dangerous forward motion. b. STANDBY is a complicated way to say WAIT, and summons the image of standing. c. AUTOROTATION does not rotate an auto. ROTATION is used otherwise in aviation for the climbing maneuver after takeoff. d. LOAD NUMBERS - Is this a command to insert numbers into a computer? No, it refers to the loading of the airplane. NUMBER additionally means the position in a traffic sequence. In HAVE NUMBERS a pilot refers to yet a third concept, numbers for runway, weather and altimeter. e. LEFT TRAFFIC - did the airplane depart from the airport traffic? No, this specifies a pattern.

2. Illogicality

a. STOP AND GO are impossible to do simultaneously. Stop THEN go is logical. THEN is indeed used elsewhere, as in DESCEND NOW TO ... THEN DESCEND AT PILOTS DISCRETION MAINTAIN ... b. CLIMB AND MAINTAIN ... Same impossibility. c. DESCEND AND MAINTAIN ... Same. d. LAND AND HOLD SHORT - Same.

3. Misnomers. Aviation language must be usable by pilots and controllers in 189 countries, not just pilots and controllers familiar with American aviation jargon. The meanings of these expressions cannot be deduced from their construction. Their real meanings differ from their apparent meanings. While these can perplex some Americans, they can stump pilots from non-English speaking backgrounds. a. FEATHERED PROPELLER - It is not covered with feathers. b. CLEAN CONFIGURATION - It has nothing to do with cleanliness. c. TAKEOFF - Nothing is taken off, rather flight is started. d. METEOROLOGY - has nothing to do with meteors. e. LIGHT GUN - is not a gun which is not heavy. f. CONTAMINATED RUNWAY - It has no medical problem, but is merely slick. g. DEAD RECKONING - is not a counting of the dead. h. COCKPIT - Is it really a place where roosters fight? i. DEICER BOOTS — Foul weather footwear for one whose job is deicing? j. BANK - The shore of a river. To BANK - Suggests putting money away. k. FLUID OUNCE - Is a unit of volume, not weight as ounce implies. l. LANDING GEAR - A toothed wheel for landing? m. READBACK -really means simply, repeat.

4. Idioms

a.BETTER THAN FIVE THOUSAND AND FIVE . Common sense could never decipher this kind of jargon. b. "Can you make the runway" asked a Seattle controller to a Russian pilot. His answer should have been, "Making a runway requires construction equipment and material." C. WHEELS UP TIME. Yet another example of the cult-like American ATC talk.

CONCLUSION

The FAA has ambitions that, by the year 2008, English will be upgraded by memb er states of the ICAO from today" mere Recommendation to a compulsory Standard for world aviation. Passing an examination in English would become a precondtion for employment as a pilot or air traffic controller everywhere.

Such an upgrade cannot happen until the words and phrases become scientifically respectable, which they are not today. Instances have been shown above of duplicate words and pronunciations for concepts, duplicate concepts applied to expressions, and several confusing oddities. These co nstitute misfunctional FAA phraseology.

A complete language overhaul is necessary, and must begin by defining the field of necessary aviation expressions. The careful assignment of words and phrases to cover that field can then achieve the necessary condition of one concept / one expression. Lacking that expressional singularity, English will not merit the status of language Standard for world aviation.

Miscommunication, which causes about 15% of all crashes, is the most easily reducible risk to aviation. The General Accounting Office (Dr. Gerald Dillingham) should survey the situation and report to Congress. Probably NASA’s Human Factors Research should be given the task of comprehensive and exhaustive research into aviation language.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
iamcanadian said:
Wednesday's Child said:
English is morphing into a bastard puppy yet again of many tongues...

Which is as it should be as we strive for universal understanding, harmony and peace.

Nothing like everyone understanding everyone else to stop hate and hostility.

This is what I love about the English language above all others. It's simplicity and adaptability and ever changing character not fixated on stringent rules that are not adaptable.

This is the primary reason in my opinion that the English language "North American Version" that dominates because it is less discriminating and less structured and therefore more adaptable.

Oh, of course it'sthe language of peace!

"Hey Sam, this is only a thousand million dollars; according to the agreement, you were supposed to give me a billion!"

"Are you on drugs, Bill? A billion is a thousand million!"

"Oh you f*cking sl* pig! You know damned well that it means a million million, you little slug!"

(Two hours later in the local bar)

"Hey, Sam, your face ain't lookin' too good; what happenned?"

"I got into a fight with that low life Bill. I'm gonna kill 'im next time I see 'im! Damned I'm pissed! I wanna smoke a fag!" (as he bangs his fist on the table)

"Woa now, calm down Sam, we don't need another fight here!"

"Watcha talkin' about, Bob? I just wanna smoke a f*ckin' fag!"

(the gays in the bar start clearing the room to avoid an altercation, as Bob's niccotine fit goes unanswered!)

(next day, after recovering from a second fight in the bar when all the gays gagned up on him and pounded the sh*t out of him, he calls the local company to buy a an extra elevator for his business. The truck arrives with the elevator)

Oh, fer cryin' out loud, I meat an elavator that takes people up in buildings, not a f*ckin' grain elevator! Whadda ya think I'm runnin'? A farm or something? Damned, I need another fa... I mean.. cigarette! Now we need a lift fer cryin' out loud!

(so the driver who'd brought the elevator offers them a lift)

"Why are you stopping at the corner shop, girl?"

"Well, you said you needed a cigarette and wanted a lift."

I want the thing that takes you up and down shafts."

"Oh Sir, that's no way to talk to a woman! (as she slaps him on his bruised cheek!)

"Oh no, not that you moron! I meant a lift, that thing that takes you up and down building shafts!"




I think we all get the idea. And here's another interesting article:

by Kent JONES


The routine words and phrases to be used in messages between pilots and controllers must not be potential sources of confusion. In order to avoid ambiguity, there must be a one-to-one relationship between concepts and their spoken expression. Further, misnomers and other oddities would not inhabit a scientifically valid terminology.

Flaws in the application of English to the concepts of aviation can produce pilot errors which lead to fatalities, here and abroad. A few examples of them are cited below. They are extracted from The Pilot Reference to ATC procedures and Phraseology.

PHRASEOLOGY DEFECTS

A. NON-SINGULAR EXPRESSIONS FOR CONCEPTS (synonymous utterances)

1. Aviation is a worldwide activity, so pilots and controllers are likely to be in contact with their counterparts of all 189 nations. All the words and phrases used in Air Traffic Control are synonymously spoken in the 38 dialects of English and innumerable foreign accents, such as Spanglish. The FAA and ICAO uncritically accept all of these potential generators of pilot confusion.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRITISH AND IRISH ENGLISH English English, Scottish English, Scots, Welsh English, Irish English AUSTRALIAN AND NEW ZEALAND ENGLISH: Australian English, Aboriginal English, Maori English, New Zealand English EAST ASIAN ENGLISH: Philippines English, Hawaiian English, Singapore English, Hong Kong English, Malaysian English SOUTH ASIAN ENGLISH: Sri Lankan English, Bangladeshi English, Pakistani English,.Indian English AFRICAN ENGLISH: Nigerian English, Ghanaian English, Sierra Leone English, East African Englishes, South African English CARRIBEAN ENGLISH: Jamaican English, Patwa, Bahamian , Barbadian / Bajan, Trinidadian CANADIAN ENGLISH: Inuit English, Quebec English, Canadian Standard English, Atlantic Provinces English AMERICAN ENGLISH: Northern, Appalacian English, Southern, Western, African American Vernacular English / Ebonics, Native American Englishes FROM: English Around the World, from 1999 Encarta World English Dictionary.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.The following are examples of duplicate official FAA expressions idea. They are synonymous expressions, which should be reduced to only one.

a. Concept: fly around the airport FAA Expressions: CIRCLE THE AIRPORT, CIRCLE THE RUNWAY, GO AROUND.

b. Concept: after landing, turn around on the runway and travel toward the arrival end of the runway. FAA Expressions: TAXI BACK and BACK TAXI: Why this word reversal? Worse yet, the NTSB is opposed even to the use of this procedure. Precisely this maneuver was in progress when the worst crash in aviation history occurred, with 583 deaths. But the FAA persists in exposing the public to danger by using it.

c. Concept: this is a request for certainty about some information. FAA Expressions; SAY, VERIFY, CONFIRM. d. concept: command instant action. FAA Expressions: IMMEDIATELY, EXPEDITE and WITHOUT DELAY. These take a longer time to say than the simpler NOW would.

e. Concept: an exclamation from a pilot in trouble. MAYDAY and PAN-PAN . A pilot in trouble hardly cares about tiny differences in meaning of these two expressions.

f. Concept; tell your speed. FAA Expressions: SAY SPEED and SAY MACH NUMBER. g. Concept: watch out for a balloon. FAA Expressions: DERELICT BALLOON and UNMANNED BALLOON OVER... h. Concept: you may be approaching a severe danger due to wind. 8 FAA Expressions:: WINDSHEAR ALERT, ARRIVAL WINDSHEAR / MICROBURST ALERT, DEPARTURE WINDSHEAR / MICROBURST ALERT, LOW LEVEL WINDSHEAR ADVISORIES IN EFFECT, MICROBURST ADVISORIES IN EFFECT, MICROBURST ALERT, MULTIPLE WINDSHEAR / MICROBURST ALERTS, POSSIBLE WINDSHEAR OUTSIDE THE SYSTEM.

i. Concept: the paved area near the airport buildings. 3 FAA Expressions: RAMP = APRON = TARMAC. Three designators, one concept.

k. Concept: basis of the cited time 3 FAA Expressions: Greenwich Mean Time, GMT = Zulu time = UTC.

3. Synonymous measurements

TOPIC FAA REST OF WORLD distance nautical miles kilometers air pressure inches of mercury millibars runway length feet meters or kilometers weight pounds kilograms volume gallons liters

4. Synonymous phrases of Air Traffic Control TOPIC FAA ICAO desisting from an action hold stop move away exit vacate These are two examples in a list of 49, in which the FAA and the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) use different words for the same concept. The ICAO expressions are used everywhere outside the U.S. Pilots entering or departing from the U.S. must use two different sets of words. These are 49 opportunities for disastrous confusion.

B. NON-SINGULAR MEANINGS FOR WORDS AND PHRASES. (Homonyms, homophones, homographs). These expressions have ambiguous meanings, even within the aviation field.

a. TAXI can mean a helicopter, as in HOVER TAXI and AIR TAXI.. TAXI additionally can mean to move, as in driving a car. b. AIRCRAFT can mean either one aircraft or many aircraft. c FLIGHT TEST can deal with either 1. apparatus, or 2. persons. d. NOVEMBER is the name of the letter N. NOVEMBER is also given the meaning of an aircraft ID number. A third meaning of NOVEMBER is the month itself. e. TANGO is the name of the letter T. It also designates an air taxi, or helicopter. f. ZULU is the name of the letter Z. ZULU is also a basis for designating time at the Greenwich meridian. g. CONTACT APPROACH is a type of an approach to an airport. CONTACT APPROACH is also a command to radio the controller who handles approaches. h. GATE is a location at the terminal building. GATE is also a point in the sky. i. ROLL means to pivot in the air about the longitudinal axis of the airplane. ROLL is additionally a forward motion, as in takeoff roll. j. SLOT is a part of the forward edge of some wings. SLOT also a time interval for a takeoff. k. REMAIN deals with location, but also with radio frequencies.

k. Homophones. English contains 7,700 homophones. BRAKE sounds like BREAK; ONE and WON TWO, as in two two thousand, sounds like TO, as in to two thousand. FOR sounds like FOUR EIGHT and ATE MISSED sounds like MIST RIGHT sounds like WRITE HEAR and HERE

l. Homographs CONtent and conTENT appear identical on a printed page. The same problem besets REFuse and reFUSE. English contains 1,440 homographs.

m. Homonyms. English contains more than 50,000 homonyms. These words with more than one meaning are the basis of the abundant puns in English. This trait, amusing in social conversations, is a contributor to confusion in aviation usage. CLEAR - This can mean free of obstructions, clarity of expression, transparency, permission to do something. FLARE - Can be a magnesium candle, a landing maneuver, or the termination of a tube. OUT - Can mean no reply needed, OUT OF =not in service, FLAMEOUT = flame lost. TAKE OFF - can mean start to fly, a list derived for an estimate, a spline delivering power to a machine, etc. RIGHT - can mean either a direction, correct, or a right to do something. LEFT - can mean a direction, or departed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C. ODDITIES: IMPLAUSIBLE CHOICES OF WORDS AND PHRASINGS

1. Phrases with deceptive wording. a. GO AHEAD is intended to urge speaking, but it can and does erroneously lead to dangerous forward motion. b. STANDBY is a complicated way to say WAIT, and summons the image of standing. c. AUTOROTATION does not rotate an auto. ROTATION is used otherwise in aviation for the climbing maneuver after takeoff. d. LOAD NUMBERS - Is this a command to insert numbers into a computer? No, it refers to the loading of the airplane. NUMBER additionally means the position in a traffic sequence. In HAVE NUMBERS a pilot refers to yet a third concept, numbers for runway, weather and altimeter. e. LEFT TRAFFIC - did the airplane depart from the airport traffic? No, this specifies a pattern.

2. Illogicality

a. STOP AND GO are impossible to do simultaneously. Stop THEN go is logical. THEN is indeed used elsewhere, as in DESCEND NOW TO ... THEN DESCEND AT PILOTS DISCRETION MAINTAIN ... b. CLIMB AND MAINTAIN ... Same impossibility. c. DESCEND AND MAINTAIN ... Same. d. LAND AND HOLD SHORT - Same.

3. Misnomers. Aviation language must be usable by pilots and controllers in 189 countries, not just pilots and controllers familiar with American aviation jargon. The meanings of these expressions cannot be deduced from their construction. Their real meanings differ from their apparent meanings. While these can perplex some Americans, they can stump pilots from non-English speaking backgrounds. a. FEATHERED PROPELLER - It is not covered with feathers. b. CLEAN CONFIGURATION - It has nothing to do with cleanliness. c. TAKEOFF - Nothing is taken off, rather flight is started. d. METEOROLOGY - has nothing to do with meteors. e. LIGHT GUN - is not a gun which is not heavy. f. CONTAMINATED RUNWAY - It has no medical problem, but is merely slick. g. DEAD RECKONING - is not a counting of the dead. h. COCKPIT - Is it really a place where roosters fight? i. DEICER BOOTS — Foul weather footwear for one whose job is deicing? j. BANK - The shore of a river. To BANK - Suggests putting money away. k. FLUID OUNCE - Is a unit of volume, not weight as ounce implies. l. LANDING GEAR - A toothed wheel for landing? m. READBACK -really means simply, repeat.

4. Idioms

a.BETTER THAN FIVE THOUSAND AND FIVE . Common sense could never decipher this kind of jargon. b. "Can you make the runway" asked a Seattle controller to a Russian pilot. His answer should have been, "Making a runway requires construction equipment and material." C. WHEELS UP TIME. Yet another example of the cult-like American ATC talk.

CONCLUSION

The FAA has ambitions that, by the year 2008, English will be upgraded by memb er states of the ICAO from today" mere Recommendation to a compulsory Standard for world aviation. Passing an examination in English would become a precondtion for employment as a pilot or air traffic controller everywhere.

Such an upgrade cannot happen until the words and phrases become scientifically respectable, which they are not today. Instances have been shown above of duplicate words and pronunciations for concepts, duplicate concepts applied to expressions, and several confusing oddities. These co nstitute misfunctional FAA phraseology.

A complete language overhaul is necessary, and must begin by defining the field of necessary aviation expressions. The careful assignment of words and phrases to cover that field can then achieve the necessary condition of one concept / one expression. Lacking that expressional singularity, English will not merit the status of language Standard for world aviation.

Miscommunication, which causes about 15% of all crashes, is the most easily reducible risk to aviation. The General Accounting Office (Dr. Gerald Dillingham) should survey the situation and report to Congress. Probably NASA’s Human Factors Research should be given the task of comprehensive and exhaustive research into aviation language.
 

iamcanadian

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Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

Knoss said:
That was a quote lol I should fix that but if you look at the statistics French is the sixth most commonly used language and the third most commonly used romantic language, like I said Spanish and Portugues come first.

Third out of Four puts it in second last place.

If we take China, India, Arabic Countries out of the equation we remove 75% of the earths population. Take our English, Spanish and Portugeues and we are left with the fact that French is one of the more nominal languages of the world. If it dies it dies.

We as Canadians do not need not make any extra efforts towards it because 80% don't care about it either. Let Quebec pay the rest of Canada for our efforts to accomodate them and let them reduce their standard of living to maintain it if they want to.

7 Million French Speakng Canadians and the 63 Million in France; Not a heck of a lot of people on this planet care for the French language.
 

iamcanadian

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French (français) is the third largest of the Romance languages in terms of number of native speakers, after Spanish and Portuguese, being spoken by about 87 million people as a mother tongue, and altogether by some 182 million people, which includes second-language speakers who use French for daily communication. Moreover, an extra 82 million people are presently learning French through the world. [2]

French is thus the 15th most spoken language in the world by number of native speakers, and 5th in terms of daily speakers. It is an official language in 29 countries.

wiki: French Languaage

182 Million people world wide understand or use French at all.

The world population is the total number of humans alive on the planet Earth at a given time. According to estimates published by the United States Census Bureau[1], the Earth's population hit 6.5 billion on Saturday February 25, 2006.[2]

This is 2.8% of the worlds population

for English on the otherhand:

English is the second or third most widely spoken language in the world today. A total of 600–700 million people use the various dialects of English regularly. About 377 million people use one of the versions of English as their mother tongue, and an equal number of people use them as their second or foreign language. English is used widely in either the public or private sphere in more than 100 countries all over the world. In addition, the language has occupied a primary place in international academic and business communities. The current status of the English language at the start of the new millennium compares with that of Latin in the past. English is also the most widely used language for young backpackers who travel across continents, regardless of whether it is their mother tongue or a secondary language.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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WOW!!

I hope there are some students reading this forum - there is a wealth of study here concerning a simple but complex subject.

How we communicate!

Thanks to the contributors on this thread - I've done a lot of learning in the past half hour reading what you people have spent good time in putting up for us.... appreciate it!
 

Finder

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Dec 18, 2005
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Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

iamcanadian said:
French (français) is the third largest of the Romance languages in terms of number of native speakers, after Spanish and Portuguese, being spoken by about 87 million people as a mother tongue, and altogether by some 182 million people, which includes second-language speakers who use French for daily communication. Moreover, an extra 82 million people are presently learning French through the world. [2]

French is thus the 15th most spoken language in the world by number of native speakers, and 5th in terms of daily speakers. It is an official language in 29 countries.

wiki: French Languaage

182 Million people world wide understand or use French at all.

The world population is the total number of humans alive on the planet Earth at a given time. According to estimates published by the United States Census Bureau[1], the Earth's population hit 6.5 billion on Saturday February 25, 2006.[2]

This is 2.8% of the worlds population

for English on the otherhand:

English is the second or third most widely spoken language in the world today. A total of 600–700 million people use the various dialects of English regularly. About 377 million people use one of the versions of English as their mother tongue, and an equal number of people use them as their second or foreign language. English is used widely in either the public or private sphere in more than 100 countries all over the world. In addition, the language has occupied a primary place in international academic and business communities. The current status of the English language at the start of the new millennium compares with that of Latin in the past. English is also the most widely used language for young backpackers who travel across continents, regardless of whether it is their mother tongue or a secondary language.


Well if it's down to f*cking numbers and you discredit a whole f*cking race because they don't over populate then you must have the same feeling for my people too. The Celtic people. We number a little over 5 million speckers world wide and countless millions who don't speck our mother tongue anymore. So if you discredit the french language just because only 120someodd million speck it well I have nothing to say to a racist like you anymore.

It's people like you who repressed my people and my people were left poor and destude and nobody helped them. What did we have left at the turn of the 20th centry.... nothing!!! besides ourselves and guns. What did we do to get back our pride from our opressors.... we had to kill them and kill the people helping them. Yes we finally gained a little chunk of a gaulic nation the only free gaulic nation in the world! But we fought for it with the strongest empire who discredited our nation, our people our tongue because they thought they were better. I have no pitty for opressors who had the same idea's as you who died by my peoples hands in the fight for independance.

I can't believe I've allowed your ignorance to piss me off like this. But it's people like you who's ignorance have allowed oppression in the world and intolerance.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

Finder said:
Well if it's down to f*cking numbers and you discredit a whole f*cking race because they don't over populate then you must have the same feeling for my people too. The Celtic people. We number a little over 5 million speckers world wide and countless millions who don't speck our mother tongue anymore. So if you discredit the french language just because only 120someodd million speck it well I have nothing to say to a racist like you anymore.

Since when did a Language become a Race?

You seem to be the racist. I don't give a crap what language people speak as long as people can understand one another.

Hence the problem with Canada and its focus of such a stupid and silly little thing as the French Language.

Scrap the whole STUPID idea that a Country should be dictate how people chose to communicate by laws and rules.

If people want to use sign language, so be it.

....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`•¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'...../
..........''...\.......... _.•´
............\..............(
..............\.............\....
 

Knoss

Nominee Member
Feb 18, 2006
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Ithink if government documents are bilingual ,and if governmetn personnelle at the provincial leveal must be bilingual it's one thing, there should not be restrictions on the use of a language.

My concern with billingualism Federally is that it restricts the options avaliable to western Candians without waht is for most a vary specialized requierment. It is not commonly used provincially or socialy, it is never a primary language, and thus governemtn jobs are not as open to western Candians as they are to someone from Atlantic Canada (likely excluding Newfoundland though they border Quebec and the French Republic so it's hard to say), Onatario, and especially Quebec. This means taht the bureaocray is driven towards Quebec.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

Knoss said:
Ithink if government documents are bilingual ,and if governmetn personnelle at the provincial leveal must be bilingual it's one thing, there should not be restrictions on the use of a language.

This is just the point. The whole French Language crap was created so that the people in power at the time could hang on to power and pass it on to their kin because they where already bilingual and it is much easier for someone from a French speaking household to learn English in a Sea of English Language in North America than it can possibly ever be for people in a Sea of Engish Language to learn enough french to apply for a Government Job.

The 3 Million public servants in this country as a percentage are disproportionate to a significant degree with the true make up of this Country as a whole which is 20% French (including bilinguals for who French is NOT their first tounge) and 80% that don't care one iotta about the French Language.

It has been a scam on all of Canada perpetrated by the French master race.
 

Knoss

Nominee Member
Feb 18, 2006
62
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6
Rockglen, Saskatchewan
I think in many places on packaging it could be international, eg. the ingrediants of many products could use IPAC symbols intead of writing the name of a chemical in Englisha nd French Salt/Sel = NaCl, Water/Eau= HOH.

And then there are products where they havent adopted the metric system and have foot/peid BTW a French foot is longer then a British foot ie. Napolean was 5 feet 10 inches and 5 peids 2 inches.
 

iamcanadian

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Napoleone was a little short Italian guy that conquered France.

Everyone conquered France and the best they could do is say NO he was French, Corsica is a French Island that just happens to speak Italian and French and is bilingual.

Just like when the English conquered France here they say No We are all Canadian and Canadians are English and French bilingual so we did not get conquered here either.

Same twist on history.
 

Knoss

Nominee Member
Feb 18, 2006
62
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Rockglen, Saskatchewan
lol hgis height was average, but my point is that pied on the french side of say a ball of twine is innaccurate because it is infact a differnt unit, that is not in use.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

iamcanadian said:
Napoleone was a little short Italian guy that conquered France.

Everyone conquered France and the best they could do is say NO he was French, Corsica is a French Island that just happens to speak Italian and French and is bilingual.

Just like when the English conquered France here they say No We are all Canadian and Canadians are English and French bilingual so we did not get conquered here either.

Same twist on history.

The funny thing is that Corsica was unilingualy Italian until after Nepoleone conquered France which then brought in the French Language.