FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schools

[Machjo]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

And then what? Do we ban the wearing of certain colours if they have connections to gangs? How about sports jerseys? I bet more "issues" have come up in schools because of team loyalty (fanaticism) than religion. How about symbols relating to drugs... should they be banned too?

Let the Muslims wear their head scarves. Let the Christians wear their cross necklaces.

Live and let live.

There are over 400 religions in the world, you need quite alot of wall space to cover everything.

Hum, I only need one finger to wear a ring, and no more than a lapel to wear a pin. If an individual needs a wall for him to sport 400 religions he believes in all at once, then I'd have to say he's got an issue! Needs to see a shrink?

 

[Machjo]

If one believes in the total separation of Church and State,and the schools are state-run..why,of course,keep all religious symbols out of the classrooms.

Touchy subject. We have a separation of church and state, yet we advocate freedom of religion. I would say that since the mere presence of religious apparel does not advocate one religion over another, then I say a complete ban is not necessary. The only requirement is that the religious apparel does not violate any other school rules. Such as the Sikh dagger should not be allowed as it violates weapon rules.

I don't believe clothing, or a cross around ones neck is the issue in the article. Imagine yourself being a muslim sitting in a classroom and having to look at a crucifix. That may be insutling to someone. What would be the point having religious symbols in a classroom?

Actually, the Qur'an says, 'no compulsion is there in religion', so this would be fully in accordance with Shari'a, so why would a Muslim who's well versed in the Qur'an be offended?

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

No. Canada is not France. We pride ourselves of being multiculture. We pride ourselves of tolerating each others religions. France was forced by a large Jewish community to force moslems to take off their head scarfs. We do not have this issue here.

Yes, let's blame the Jews, they're always a fan favourite for persecution!

Now do not start crying about prosecutions of Jews and call me anti-semetic because I blamed the Jews here. It is true that the Jewish Community is responsible for what happenned in France. Like it or not, but it is true.

Is there a sourse for this?

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

When these moslems immigrate to France or Germany, they have to apply to get in. They must be told before immigrating that their head scarf is not welcome.

But what about French-born Muslims, not born into Muslim families, but chose to adopt Islam as their religion. Just as in Quebec and here in China, an increasingly large number of Muslims are first generation.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

As for my "stupid" law of banning brown skinned people, please go back and see what the white man did to the African-American and still do now.

You are bringing up things that happened many years ago, I'm sure if we go back far enough in time, we can find wrong doings committed by every race or nationality. If the "white man" is so evil and born with prejudice and a superiority complex, why do all the coloured people more to their countries? They must be doing something right.

Grumpy restaurant managers and movies theater owners etc... might complain that they are not comfortable serving people with head scarf.

Not really the same thing, the example you describe is discrimination, which is illegal in France. The law passed in France does not discriminate against any one people; it is a blanket law that applies to all in the public school system.

I also would like to see the reaction on the Sikh people when they are told that they can't wear a turban or carry a dagger.

Sikhs shouldn't be allowed to carry daggers around in public, especially at school, in France or in Canada. This is a matter of public safety.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

But don't forget the other half of the women who have head scarfs and they chose to wear it. I have nothing against a law passed against all religious symbols as along as people are told that before coming into the country.

You mention two things, the first, that they choose to wear it. Secondly, what obligation does the French government have to tell immigrants of any future laws? This law wouldn't work as one that is grandfathered in. Laws can change without notice. The people who don't like the law now, know about it now and can leave France if they so wish.

Only if another country is prepared to accept them. So in the end, it might be easier for some to just turn to passive resistance. I mean, after all, I'm sure if almost 20% of French just decided to ignore this law, and wear the veil anyway, the courts would be so jam packed, and schools would realize that they can't have 20% of their population uneducated; that would nearly make France a third world country. OK, you could kick the immigrants back to their home country (expensive airfare for the French government, though), but what about those who are born in France? No other country has any obligation to accept them!

I'm not a Muslim myslef, but am always up for a fight. Go, go, Muslims!

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

But don't forget the other half of the women who have head scarfs and they chose to wear it. I have nothing against a law passed against all religious symbols as along as people are told that before coming into the country.

You mention two things, the first, that they choose to wear it. Secondly, what obligation does the French government have to tell immigrants of any future laws? This law wouldn't work as one that is grandfathered in. Laws can change without notice. The people who don't like the law now, know about it now and can leave France if they so wish.

yes, they choose to wear it in the same way that some Christians choose to follow the Gospels. i've read the Qur'an more than a few times, and the wearing of the veil is in fact prescribed according to Shari'a, which again, Muslims are free to chose to follow. :wink:

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all rel

They should be told before immigrating,

Told what? I mean, most polls in Europe and even in Canada agree that immigration is acceptable on the basis that it won't radically change the current society and on the basis that the immigrants will assimilate to a degree to the predominant and native culture. So really, it is the French who have been duped! The immigrants should have told the French people that they plan to change society, by forcing the government to adapt to them and their culture. They should have made it clear that they did not plan on integrating with the French people, but rather seclude themselves in their own ethnic enclave and re-create the country they had left.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all rel

They should be told before immigrating,

Told what? I mean, most polls in Europe and even in Canada agree that immigration is acceptable on the basis that it won't radically change the current society and on the basis that the immigrants will assimilate to a degree to the predominant and native culture. So really, it is the French who have been duped! The immigrants should have told the French people that they plan to change society, by forcing the government to adapt to them and their culture. They should have made it clear that they did not plan on integrating with the French people, but rather seclude themselves in their own ethnic enclave and re-create the country they had left.

Wait a minute. I thought we were talking about individuals wearing religius apparel, not forcing others to wear it! Also, I've met enough first generation Muslims who were just as adamant about wearing their veils as the immigrants were, so I really don't understand why so much emphasys on immigrants, while ignoring the first generation Muslims who arte just as adamant? Is this issue one of 'freedom of religious expression' or one of immigration? I really don't see what immigration has to do with this.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all rel

They should be told before immigrating,

Told what? I mean, most polls in Europe and even in Canada agree that immigration is acceptable on the basis that it won't radically change the current society and on the basis that the immigrants will assimilate to a degree to the predominant and native culture.

Well I guess then the Canadian government isn't listening to the polls....

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all rel

I really don't see what immigration has to do with this.

I am merely responding to the claim of immigrants being told of the future laws and putting the onus on the receiving country of spelling out it plans on governing.

The main issue is about freedom of religion. I don't know why everyone keeps focusing on Muslims, this law is non discrimnating. It applies to all people in the French public school system.

 

[moghrabi]

I Think the people who like to wear their religious apparel will go into civil disobediene. If you tell a Sikh that he is not allowed to carry his own sword, there will be a lot of trouble from his community. I still have to research how did the Sikh people react to the new law in France.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

I Think the people who like to wear their religious apparel will go into civil disobediene. If you tell a Sikh that he is not allowed to carry his own sword, there will be a lot of trouble from his community. I still have to research how did the Sikh people react to the new law in France.

You cannot carry swords around in public, I don't care what religion it from. I don't care if the sword was given by God him/herself. It is a matter of public safety.

As for civil disobedience, it may work some of the time (like under Gandhi) but with only 10% of the population and the majority of the population in favour of the law, it won't work. It will be the perfect excuse to deport immigrants, cause one of the stipulation of citizenship and immigration is that he or she will follow the laws of the land.

 

[moghrabi]

But Sikh people carry their sword everyday no matter what. It is a religious duty. It is always on their side. Check around and you will be stunned that all of the religious Sikhes have to wear a turban, carry a sword, wear a bracelet, carry a comb and never cut their hair. It is done here day in day out and i have no problems with it. How is France going to stop this? Kick them all out of the country? I think Not....

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

But Sikh people carry their sword everyday no matter what. It is a religious duty. It is always on their side. Check around and you will be stunned that all of the religious Sikhes have to wear a turban, carry a sword, wear a bracelet, carry a comb and never cut their hair. It is done here day in day out and i have no problems with it. How is France going to stop this? Kick them all out of the country? I think Not....

We're talking about schools in terms of France, not everyday life. As for kicking out Sikhs, well if they violate the law, France would be within their right to imprison them or deport them.

Also, in terms of here, if caught I think the Sikh here would be in violation of laws that prohibit carrying a concealed weapon.

 

[moghrabi]

Not true. It is all legal in Canada to wear your religious attire. Not in violation. If they are, then the cops could visit Surrey, BC and collectively jail all of its citizens.

 

[Machjo]

Again, why the focus on immigrants? Yes, as for immigrants, if they violate the law, deport them. But what about first generation Muslims? I realise this applies across the bord, but here it's different, becasue the Qur'an itself requires a Muslima to cover. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus require Christians to wear a cross. So while immigrants can be deported, what about the white-skinned, native French speaking Muslim woman born to typical white Christian parents, and who refuses to take off her veil? How in the world does that relate to immigrants? Or do you suppose that once one adopts Islam, she ought not be considered a real French anymore? And if she can't get deported to anywhere, then jail her?

 

[Machjo]

Again, why the focus on immigrants? Yes, as for immigrants, if they violate the law, deport them. But what about first generation Muslims? I realise this applies across the bord, but here it's different, becasue the Qur'an itself requires a Muslima to cover. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus require Christians to wear a cross. So while immigrants can be deported, what about the white-skinned, native French speaking Muslim woman born to typical white Christian parents, and who refuses to take off her veil? How in the world does that relate to immigrants? Or do you suppose that once one adopts Islam, she ought not be considered a real French anymore? And if she can't get deported to anywhere, then jail her?

 

[moghrabi]

Re: RE: FRANCE banned all religious symbols from their schoo

Again, why the focus on immigrants? Yes, as for immigrants, if they violate the law, deport them. But what about first generation Muslims? I realise this applies across the bord, but here it's different, becasue the Qur'an itself requires a Muslima to cover. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus require Christians to wear a cross. So while immigrants can be deported, what about the white-skinned, native French speaking Muslim woman born to typical white Christian parents, and who refuses to take off her veil? How in the world does that relate to immigrants? Or do you suppose that once one adopts Islam, she ought not be considered a real French anymore? And if she can't get deported to anywhere, then jail her?

Very good question Machjo. any input to this question. This is where i believe the new law will fail.

 

[Machjo]

Oh yes, just give France a little time. After twenty years of court battles and more animosity between religious groups than ever, they'll have to change.