Fallujah: the truth at last How the US murdered a city!!

[Reverend Blair]

:roll:

You seem to know little of the world outside of the United States, Jeremy. I would wager that you know very little of Canada by your statements.

The fact is that Farenheit 9-11 has a lot of copies in the video store because it's a hit movie. It's also a fact that it won awards because it is well-done.

The funniest fact of all though is that the radical right spent millions trying to refute it and has, all in all, been unable to.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

He may have not been sued for those who he targets (because seriously, no one with half brain will believe what he said since he has lost all credibility as it is) but he has been sued by a newspaper down here for doctoring the front page of their newspaper for his film...hmm hold on a sec, let me find the article on the net..... http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5575561 LOL. What a riot...they go saying in the article "“If (Moore) wants to ‘edit’ The Pantagraph, he should apply for a copy-editing job" LOL. Too funny.

Jeremy

Actually, the Pantograph didn't sue...they just wrote Moore a letter demanding an apology and a buck...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5688229/

...I find it rather amusing that the rabidly conservative right-wingers used every trick they had to try to keep Fahrenheit from being distributed, and failing that they started a smear campaign, and filmed Fahrenheitish movies of their own, replete with scathing attacks by Neo-con matress back Ann Coulter...a strange tack to take for someone that is not taken seriously, and has no credibility...

...by the way, in a recent interview on The Fifth Estate, Ann Coulter swore up and down to investigative journalist Bob McKeown, that Canada had sent troops to Vietnam...that alone speaks volumes about the credibility of the mouthpiece of neo-conservativism...

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Fallujah: the truth a

Mouthpiece of neo-conservatism? I usually call her something else. It has to do with her mouth, but the word mouth doesn't actually appear. ;-)

 

[alienofwar]

Heh....none of you guys even bothered to look at the web links I offered you? Please inform me what tricks the "rabidly conservative right-wingers" have used to prevent the distribution of the film?. Also, tell me which one of 53 or so errors in the movie are not true???? Which ones??? There is a source for each one...yes, a web link...you can click on all 53 if you like. If you believe everything on that film, then I guess your blind hatred of President Bush blinds you from even questioning the documentary. And thats pretty sad if you believe everything you hear when it comes to bashing my president but are very skeptical of anything that supports him.

Jeremy

 

[Reverend Blair]

:roll: Your president is a liar and a war criminal, jeremy. You should be ashamed that he's running your country.

 

[alienofwar]

Ughh, I made such a long response and then I accidentally deleted it by pressing the "post reply" button...ughh, 2nd time I did that.

Question, what proof do you have that President Bush intentionally lied?? I mean, can you read his mind? How do you know he lied on purpose? Also, how is a war based on failed intelligence, a lie? Isn't that more of a mistake rather?

Okay, so here is an argument. Saddam Hussein as we know, contributed to the deaths of millions of Iraqi's because of his brutal dictatorship. He had a complete disregard for his people because of his apathy and greed for a luxurious lifestyle. We also know that if we did lift the sanctions on him he would of continued his pursuit for WMD's, it is a fact, anyone following the news is aware of this. Now, we are all aware of the oil for food scandal and the many palaces he built for his wives, mistresses and himself. We know he tortured any opposition and the relatives that were associated with them. He was a terrible dictator, plain and simple. Now, I know those to the far left love to call President Bush a "war criminal", and I understand why, your angry at him, you have a emotional hatred and calling him a criminal is a very powerful statement that helps release your anger against him. But we are aware that if we didn't oust Saddam Hussein, he would still be in power and possibly many more millions would die because of the sanctions and we are also aware that taking him out of power also contributed to the estimate of close to 100 000 civilian deaths and also the injuries and deaths of the U.S and ally soldiers. So which way would you want it?? Also, you must realize that by leaving Saddam Hussein in power in the long term many more people would die as a result of his power than those who have died in the short term. They made a great sacrafice. Doesnt it make more sense to give these people a chance at democracy rather than sit back and do nothing about it?

Of course many of you would question the motives of the U.S...but we should not come to any premature conclusions untill this whole ordeal is over with and we know what the final outcome is.

You guys should watch the documentary called "Voices of Iraq". It is a real eye opener. The person who produced this documentary handed out 150 video cameras to random individuals in Iraq during the U.S presence...and you would be suprised what insightful and optomistic things they have to say about the current affairs. Nothing like what you hear in the newspapers...in fact, you would think its a different world. It really is a window into the average persons life without the bias of the mainstream media. Also interesting to note is when a few Iraqis who were tortured by Saddam's henchmen give their perspective about Abu Gharib. They said, they would give anything to be "tortured" by female U.S soldiers than by those who tortured them under Saddam. To them it Abu Gharib was a joke. They said "at least the U.S gov't appologized for it!" Saddam had never appologized.

Jeremy

 

[Reverend Blair]

Question, what proof do you have that President Bush intentionally lied?? I mean, can you read his mind? How do you know he lied on purpose? Also, how is a war based on failed intelligence, a lie? Isn't that more of a mistake rather?

Most of the intelligence services on the planet did not agree that Saddam presented a threat.

Okay, so here is an argument. Saddam Hussein as we know, contributed to the deaths of millions of Iraqi's because of his brutal dictatorship. He had a complete disregard for his people because of his apathy and greed for a luxurious lifestyle.

So when Droolin' Ronnie Rayguns and George Sr. were his best buddies and protecting him from sanctions for gassing Kurds, that was okay? You can't have it both ways, little buddy.

We also know that if we did lift the sanctions on him he would of continued his pursuit for WMD's, it is a fact, anyone following the news is aware of this.

Funny...I watch the news every day. There has no proof of that presented at all. Some right-wing wackos make the claim, but they never have the evidence to back it up.

Now, I know those to the far left love to call President Bush a "war criminal", and I understand why, your angry at him, you have a emotional hatred and calling him a criminal is a very powerful statement that helps release your anger against him.

No, we call him a war criminal because he has broken international laws, many that the United States helped to write. The biggest war crime one can commit is to start a war of aggression. Bush did that. He is a war criminal by definition.

But we are aware that if we didn't oust Saddam Hussein, he would still be in power and possibly many more millions would die because of the sanctions and we are also aware that taking him out of power also contributed to the estimate of close to 100 000 civilian deaths and also the injuries and deaths of the U.S and ally soldiers.

Yeah, and the naplam and DU and bunker-busters never killed anybody. Those US soldiers are involved in a war because George Bush sent them. No other reason.

Could I ask you a question, Jeremy? Why would you come to a site like this and act as an apologist for a corrupt regime that has started an illegal war? What is your purpose here? Do you think you are going to change a lot of minds? Not gonna happen.

What it comes down to in the end is that your former heroes, Droolin' Ronnie and George I, created a monster and then lost control of him. He was contained and not a threat to anybody, but your new hero, George II, decided to follow the advice of his PNAC puppet-masters and invade Iraq for control of the oil.

 

[EagleSmack]

Jeremy... Please don't try to talk sense to these folks.

They are so filled with hate that they can't and won't listen to reason.

 

[Reverend Blair]

:roll:

 

[EagleSmack]

Could I ask you a question, Jeremy? Why would you come to a site like this and act as an apologist for a corrupt regime that has started an illegal war? What is your purpose here? Do you think you are going to change a lot of minds? Not gonna happen.

Translation...

Jeremy... we hate the US and everything it stands for. No matter how many facts you present we have just as many lies and insults to counter the truth. We hate Bush and all that is American. We have no identity of our own and the only thing that a lot of Canadians can do right now is bash the USA. We also do this to hide the fact that our own country is in trouble so by bashing the US it will distract the people from Canada's own problems. I am close minded as are a lot of people on our board so by coming on here and making a point you are just trying to add facts to our fantasy world that we enjoy.

 

[Reverend Blair]

:roll:

 

[EagleSmack]

That is what I thought.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Fallujah: the truth a

You don't think at all Eaglesmack. hat's apparent in everything you write.

 

[alienofwar]

LOL Eaglesmack.

In response Reverend Blair:

Im not too sure about intelligence communities all around the world, but I can tell you that French, German, British and even Russian intelligence all came to the same conclusion:

"We thought that there was a considerable danger that (the stockpiles) were there, because the intelligence - not just in the American and British systems but in the French, German and Russian systems - also was quite compelling at the time." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3864301.stm

"So when Droolin' Ronnie Rayguns and George Sr. were his best buddies and protecting him from sanctions for gassing Kurds, that was okay? You can't have it both ways, little buddy."

I wouldn't say best buddies, but if your talking about the Iran-Iraq war...it would definitely come down to the lesser of both evils. Reagen and Bush Sr. protecting Saddam from sanctions for gasing the Kurds? You have a source for this information? I understand Saddam used our weapons against them, but don't forget that the Iraqi Kurds were also supporting Iran at the time. After Iran was dealt with and Saddam decided to attack Kuwait is when we knew we had a new threat to deal with. Difficult situation for the U.S to be in. Aside from this, don't forget who the real enemy was...and your hatred for the U.S should not distract you from that fact. Saddam Hussein was a monster, and North America and Europe both agree. It just seems that the far-left groups don't.

"Funny...I watch the news every day. There has no proof of that presented at all. Some right-wing wackos make the claim, but they never have the evidence to back it up."

Most news networks reported this, it was big news down here in the U.S...I guess the Canadian media decided because it was not negaive against the U.S, i was not news worthy? Remember the

"We were wrong on the stockpiles. We were right on the intention," he said." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3864301.stm

"[Saddam] wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction when sanctions were lifted," a summary of the report says" www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/06/iraq.wmd.report/index.html

"The biggest war crime one can commit is to start a war of aggression. Bush did that. He is a war criminal by definition."

No, Hitlers motives were a war of aggression. You hatred is so blind you confuse President Bush with Hitler. I don't know why, the work in Iraq is not even finished and already you come to conclusions saying that we are there to occupy and steal the oil. Get in touch with reality. Most Iraqi's are thankful Saddam is gone, they just don't want the U.S to be there too long...this is a known fact. You think they loved Saddam???

Dont forget, in the long term more people would be saved from Saddam than in the short term that have been killed because of the U.S liberation. These sacrafices for freedom have been repeated throughout history...thr Americans are fully aware of this from their own history.

"Those US soldiers are involved in a war because George Bush sent them. No other reason."

Nope. Those U.S soldiers signed up for the military to serve their country. Unlike in Canada where patriotism hardly exists except in beer commercials....here in the U.S most youth take much pride in being a U.S citizen and having the privelage to live in such a great country. Also, the majority of U.S soldiers in Iraq voted for President Bush, what does that tell you?

"Why would you come to a site like this and act as an apologist for a corrupt regime that has started an illegal war? What is your purpose here? Do you think you are going to change a lot of minds? Not gonna happen."

Im not appologizing for anything. You and most Canadians should appologize for not joining in the coalition for the liberation of Iraq. Its a shame, considering your our neighbours and one of the closest allies.

And no I dont expect to change minds but at least open your minds to alternative arguments as opposed to what you hear in the mainstream media.

Dont believe everything you hear, but do think critically.

Jeremy

 

[Reverend Blair]

Im not too sure about intelligence communities all around the world, but I can tell you that French, German, British and even Russian intelligence all came to the same conclusion:

No, actually, they didn't. They wanted the UN weapons inspectors to finish doing their job because the lack of WMD and the reports coming from those weapons inspectors brought the existing intelligence into question.

I wouldn't say best buddies, but if your talking about the Iran-Iraq war...it would definitely come down to the lesser of both evils. Reagen and Bush Sr. protecting Saddam from sanctions for gasing the Kurds? You have a source for this information?

The UN, people within the Reagan White House. This has been widely reported on outside of the United States. After the Kurds were gassed the international community wanted to condemn Iraq and impose sanctions. The Reagan White House said that it would veto any such move in the Security Council. They further claimed that it was Iran who gassed the Kurds.

No, Hitlers motives were a war of aggression. You hatred is so blind you confuse President Bush with Hitler.

No mistake at all, little buddy. No blindness either. International law is clear. If you want to attack another country you have to prove that they present a clear and immediate danger. Once you prove that, the UN will give you permission to attack. You need that permission because you are not operating within in your own country.

Bush sent Powell to the UN with some cartoon drawings of a couple of trucks. The international community laughed at them. The international community did not give permission. Bush is a war criminal.

You can dance around this all you want, my little PNAC-loving friend. These are facts though. Your hero is a war criminal. He's also a liar, a coke fiend, a hypocrite, a drunk, a cheater, an idiot, a deserter, and an inside trader. Oh yeah...he seems to have an untreated messiah complex. You keep on defending him though.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

While I don't feel I should have to argue the obvious with someone who lacks the intelligence to work out the vagaries of the quote function on this board, I can't seem to resist...

No, Hitlers motives were a war of aggression. You hatred is so blind you confuse President Bush with Hitler. I don't know why, the work in Iraq is not even finished and already you come to conclusions saying that we are there to occupy and steal the oil. Get in touch with reality. Most Iraqi's are thankful Saddam is gone, they just don't want the U.S to be there too long...this is a known fact. You think they loved Saddam???

There are far more similarities when comparing the Hitler and Bush regimes than I think even you could ignore...

http://www.rense.com/general62/nocmp.htm

(I am not implying government collusion in 9/11, FYI)

Well the writer of this article may not be, but I sure as hell am...
:twisted:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6481.htm

...and that's not all...

Apparently, Neil Bush, Dubya's brother, was to have Scott Hinckley, brother of John Hinckley Jr., over to his house for dinner, on March 31, 1981...the day after Ronnie Reagan was shot!!!

I wonder who the Vice-President was at that time???

http://www.hereinreality.com/hinckley.html

They're a family of criminals and dictators...who support criminals and dictators...at least until they've outlived their usefulness...

I consider you no better than a holocaust denier for supporting this war criminal through all the mounting evidence of his complicity in torture and murder, and his utter disregard for international conventions and laws...

http://www.impeachbush.tv/impeach/grounds.html

Your president has lied to you and is committing attrocities...and you seem to be gobbling that shit up on the premise of American superiority...well guess what...at one time that may have been true...but Bush has sullied the good name of your country for many a year to come...

Next time elect someone that give a shit about his country...and the rest of the world...

 

[alienofwar]

Now lets put things into reality....yes thats right, not fantasy, but what actually is exists.

I just copied and pasted this argument, since I see it as pointless to put effort into manually arguing with someone who of course i just going to shrug off anything I say... as demonstrated by my last post on this thread and how Reverend Blair replies to my posts, copying and pasting what he feels to respond to and completely ignoring the rest. This argument pretty much explains it all.

"The Nazis murdered millions of men, women and children. Their victims weren't "collateral damage" in a war, and they were not executed after a long and fair trial. The Nazis sent their victims to gas chambers and ovens in boxcars. Nazi scientists injected dyes into the living eyes of small children to see if they could be made "Aryan." They made soap out of people.

What on earth has George Bush done that deserves such comparisons? What could he possibly do?

If you're going to call the man a Nazi, show me the children with tattoos on their arms. Show me the stockpiles of emaciated corpses. Show me files cabinets full of memos detailing how Bush and Cheney plan on disposing of millions of dead American citizens killed with poisonous gas.

If you can't show me any of these things - and you can't - then stop calling the man a Nazi. Because when you say he's no different from Hitler, you are also saying that Hitler is no different from George Bush. And that means that Hitler's crimes were no worse than George Bush's "crimes." And whatever you think of what George Bush has done or might do, if you think any of it is the moral equivalent of the Holocaust, you are in effect saying the Holocaust really wasn't that bad."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jonahgoldberg/printjg20030905.shtml

"I consider you no better than a holocaust denier for supporting this war criminal through all the mounting evidence of his complicity in torture and murder, and his utter disregard for international conventions and laws..."

From your beliefs that Bush is on level with Hitler, I consider you a holocaust denier.

And as to the reports of torture, murder and violation of international laws...look to my previous post because its quite obvious you didn't read them or you must of just glanced at them.

Abu Gharib and Gitmo? Torture? Why dont you talk to the victims of Saddam Hussein...then you will know what torture is.

Murder? In war there will always be casualties, especially if coward insurgents are hiding among the population and using them as shields. You think urban warfare is easy? Damn difficult as hell, especially if your enemy is hiding among innocent civilians. You think that we are killing these people on purpose or as you call it, murdering these people? What kind of sick twisted logic is this? Get back to reality.

Violation of international laws? This is left up to debate really. It really depends on opinion. I personally don't think it was unlawful considering the crime that was commited against the Iraqi people by Saddam. Just like any crime, dont you think the police should go after those who commit murder and torture (ah there we go, those two words...except this time they are used where they belong) on those who are defenseless? We enforce our laws domestically, whats wrong with enforcing globally? Do these victims not equal the victims that live within our own borders? They are just as equal and therefore deserve the same justice. Thats why I dont think this war was illegal. Instead of focusing on the country that wants to bring democracy, why dont you focus on the insurgents who dont want democracy? They are the real enemies here...and we all know that. If they gave up, then all these innocent civilians would be spared from the violence of war. Simple as that.

"Your president has lied to you and is committing attrocities...and you seem to be gobbling that shit up on the premise of American superiority...well guess what...at one time that may have been true...but Bush has sullied the good name of your country for many a year to come..."

Atrocities? Wrong term. They are called casualties. Difference? Atrocities are those sick acts commited on purpose. Casualties are accidental. Do not confuse Saddam Hussein with President Bush. Remember who the real enemy was.

On the premises of American superiority? Naw, I think the real issue is that Canadians have a inferiority complex when it comes to their southern neighbours.

Judging from the terms many of you far left idealists use, I would recommend picking up a dictionary and studying the actual meanings that you so easily abuse when it comes to describing current affairs.

 

[Reverend Blair]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[EagleSmack]

12 rolling eyes.

Wow!

It looks like you stumped him.

He must of put a lot of thought in that one.

 

[Reverend Blair]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: