Expatriate Voting Policy

Do you support the right for Canadians abroad to vote

  • No, never

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Full voting rights

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I really don't care

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Re: Permanent Absentees?

Nascar_James said:
tracy said:
FiveParadox said:
However, should someone who never plans to return to Canada have the right to vote for the Government of Canada? If they don't plan on returning, and they don't pay taxes, and they are not a resident of Canada, why should they be able to decide how the Consolidated Revenue Fund be appropriated? If they are not living in Canada, nor paying taxes, nor planning to return, then the Government of Canada is not relevent to them.

Right now they don't. I actually think they should for a few reasons. First of all, the government of Canada is not irelevant to us because we are still citizens. By definition, we have a stake in the government. You can contact the Canadian embassy or consular office anywhere in the world because as a citizen you have certain rights. My work permits are all granted on my Canadian passport. Secondly, I have met very few Canadians who actually intended to stay down here. I'll probably stay a little longer than I had originally planned because of issues that are certainly influenced by the government of Canada. Health care is the big one for me. If I can't influence at least some change in that area by voting, then how can I ever come back?

I think many Canadians who move to the US do it (as I did) for a better social climate in which to raise their family. Many of us want to live in a traditional climate of going to Church on Sundays and with a traditional definition of marriage so we can set a good example in raising our children. So there are indeed Canadians here (myself included) who did not move to the US mearly for work. I have met several other Canadians here who are well established and have no intention of returning to Canada.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that no Canadians do plan on living in the US forever, it just isn't the case with most of the Canadians I've met. I suspect California is quite different from Oklahoma, but most of the Canadians I know down here actually find the US government and society too conservative for their personal tastes and most of them have plans of moving home. Those plans can always change of course. I know I fall in that camp. If I have kids, I would move straight back to BC to raise them. I guess we're opposites in that way :p
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Policy

sanch said:
[
All these “nevers” have to be subjected to a reality test. Circumstances change, people lose jobs, get remarried and all of these factors in addition to citizenship can influence where one resides. Most countries today allow for dual citizenship and among the ranks who choose this option there are probably many who do so “because they can.” One can also point to Neil Young who is a Canadian and lives in California. Young has never given up his citizenship and as far as I know has never expressed any interest in returning to Canada to live. There are many Canadians like Young living abroad who see their Canadian citizenship as a basis for their identity which they are reluctant to renounce even though they are living abroad and have no clear intention of returning. Young has probably never contributed to the “Revenue Fund.” But now after many years Young is returning to Canada more often and has become an unofficial ambassador for Canadian music. But he still would not be eligible to vote. And he still is not contributing to the “Revenue Fund.” Yet he is making a contribution to Canada. Should this contribution not be recognized in some meaningful way? Establishing a dialog with expatriates makes good economic and cultural sense and that is why so many nations are doing it in a very active way.
.

Thanks for pointing that out Sanch. I know for me, being a Canadian is such a strong part of my identity... probably even more so since I moved to the US.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
647
0
16
The government is going to have to seriously examine the implications of some of its policies over the next ten years. As an example the negative impact of the brain drain was thought to be neutralized by attracting new professionals through immigration. Now Stats Canada is reporting that while these individuals (new immigrants) qualify for immigration based on their specialties, their credentials are in large part not being recognized once they arrive in Canada. Hence the phenomenon of taxi drivers with doctorates and medical degrees. It was in response to this news that Joe Volpe developed a new interest in expatriates. But he doesn’t really have a good plan to repatriate them and whatever course he chooses is complicated by laws, regulations and attitudes that deprive expatriates of rights as fully enfranchised Canadians. What’s Volpe going to do? Get on his soap box and whistle and hope people respond. No, he has to first contact doctors, teachers, and business people who he wants to repatriate. The simplest way to do this is through voter registration and incorporating these individuals into the political process.

To me this process of segmenting the Canadian population based on selective criteria is a charter issue. Bascially Canada is moving towards a future where who gets to do what is decided on these kinds of factors. The Charter more or less states all Canadians are equal and deserve equal rights. The reality conflicts with this ideal.

Nascar I have less problems with the social programs than I do with the way government is administrated. There is really no oversight over public servants in Canada and so you have trends like the one reported recently where 52% of government jobs go to relatives and friends of employees. The auditor general can investigate but then all they can do is submit their reports and recommendations. There is no pressure to act on these reports. Look at the history of critical reports concerning HRDC. They are all archived and readily accessible. But they are ignored. Of course when the scandal gets too bad there is action but how many scandals are there that have not been identified that are waiting to erupt. It’s amazing what politicians get away with in Canada.

Like Tracy I am more ideologically in agreement with Canadian policies on issues such as health care and social support and see it as a better environment to raise children. I spend my time between New York and Boston and the Canadians I meet are more like the ones you are encountering in California. A lot of this is as you said regional as the Canadians who go to Oklahoma would be very uncomfortable in New York. That is to be expected as both countries are very diverse.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Voter Requirements

If someone wishes to have an influence on how the Consolidated Revenue Fund is appropriated, then they should be required to pay into that fund, period. Perhaps some sort of "non-resident fee" could be levied on those who choose to vote without permanent residence in Canada. That way, at least the Government can say that they're contributing something to Canada to warrant their vote.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
647
0
16
Re: Voter Requirements

FiveParadox said:
If someone wishes to have an influence on how the Consolidated Revenue Fund is appropriated, then they should be required to pay into that fund, period. Perhaps some sort of "non-resident fee" could be levied on those who choose to vote without permanent residence in Canada. That way, at least the Government can say that they're contributing something to Canada to warrant their vote.

This is an interesting idea? A levy on the right to vote. It would seem that if voting rights were determined by contribution to the revenue fund then this would serve as a basis for excluding other categories of individuals as well.. What of people on social assistance? What of the homeless? What of the elderly? What of families subsisting on minimal wages who pay little or no taxes? Of course one might say that anyone in any of these groups might have made contributions in the past but one could apply this argument equally to expatriates. Also since some Canadians pay much more in taxes shouldn’t they get more votes?

It seems this argument in similar to the one voiced by Albertans concerning oil revenues and who should get to decide how these are allocated. Non-Albertans need not apply.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Re: Voter Requirements

sanch said:
FiveParadox said:
If someone wishes to have an influence on how the Consolidated Revenue Fund is appropriated, then they should be required to pay into that fund, period. Perhaps some sort of "non-resident fee" could be levied on those who choose to vote without permanent residence in Canada. That way, at least the Government can say that they're contributing something to Canada to warrant their vote.

This is an interesting idea? A levy on the right to vote. It would seem that if voting rights were determined by contribution to the revenue fund then this would serve as a basis for excluding other categories of individuals as well.. What of people on social assistance? What of the homeless? What of the elderly? What of families subsisting on minimal wages who pay little or no taxes? Of course one might say that anyone in any of these groups might have made contributions in the past but one could apply this argument equally to expatriates. Also since some Canadians pay much more in taxes shouldn’t they get more votes?

.

Thank you! My mother hasn't worked at a paying job since my brother was born and she became a stay at home mom, so she hasn't payed taxes in over 30 years. She still gets to vote.

Plus, is that all that voting is really about? How we'll spend the money?
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Expatriates should be allowed to vote, since they are Canadian citizens. However, expatriates who take up citizenship of another country should not.

The whole idea of dual citizenship is crap. You cannot be loyal to two nations. Citizenship should not be obtained or granted based on the idea of convenience.

Either you are Canadian or not, very simple concept to grasp.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Or what about this as an idea:

Instead of being givin the right to vote as citizens, we're given the right to vote as residents.

Just as a Montrealer who moves to Toronto foregoes his right to vote in a Montreal municipal election, but gains the right to vote in a Toronto election, why not do the same with ex-pats.

So if a Briton is living in Canada, he would be free to vote in a Canadian Federal election during his stay (should such an election occur during his stay of course), but would forego his right to vote in a British election during that time.

The same could apply to a Canadian living in the UK.

Now in some cases, it might be more complicated. Let's take the PRC for instance. This would mean that Chinese ex-pats in Canada would get to vote in Canadian elections, yet Canadians living in the PRC would not get reciprocal rights. Personally, I could still accept that. Besides, why should Chinese be penalized because of their government's policies.

Such a voting system would likely soften extremist stances likewise. One could immagine the serious thought an Iraqi living in the US would be putting into a US election, or a Persian likewise. This would tend to moderate a nation's international policy.

What would be your thoughts on this?
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Interesting Proposal

It's an interesting idea; unfortunately, I do not think that it would ever be approved in either the House of Commons or the Senate. There are too many reasons for a citizen to be away during an election; however, I don't think that a matter of years, without being abroad on the orders or request of the Government of Canada, can be considered an "appropriate" period of leave, while retaining the right to vote.
 

Citizen

Electoral Member
Jan 6, 2006
169
0
16
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Policy

DasFX said:
Expatriates should be allowed to vote, since they are Canadian citizens. However, expatriates who take up citizenship of another country should not.

The whole idea of dual citizenship is crap. You cannot be loyal to two nations. Citizenship should not be obtained or granted based on the idea of convenience.

Either you are Canadian or not, very simple concept to grasp.

I totally agree with your comments.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Actually my first idea just gave me a new idea.

If we granted voting rights based on place of residence rather than citizenship, then we wouldn't need to war with other countries to grant them voting rights; all we'd need to do is accept them into our own countries. And if a Canadian should choose to live in a non-democratic country, then he gets the same rights as the rest of the locals; if he doesn't like it, then he could always go back to Canada.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Dangerous Idea

Upon further consideration, I choose to oppose the suggestion.

If someone is going to commit themselves to living in Canada, and upholding the principles that Canada stands for, including our system of governance, then there should be no reason that they do not apply for Canadian citizenship.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Only Canadian citizens should be able to vote. People should have to make a significant commitment to the country before being able to determine its future.

However, I'm all for dual citizenship. I think its archaic to ban it since there is too much tribalism and nationalism in the world anyways. Canada is a country built on immigration, and is a very successful country while it has allowed all sorts of people to come to the country from all over the world.

Did you know that Mario Lemieux is an American citizen. He took it out about 10 years ago. I don't blame him since he's chosen to live in the United States. But simply because he's chosen to live in the United States doesn't mean he doesn't have attachment to his country of birth. Why would you force him to make a choice between one or the other?
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
If you are a Canadian citizen, you should have the right to vote. Physically being in the country should not matter. However, my belief is, if you obtain citizenship of another nation, then you should lose your right to vote and Canadian citizenship.

There are many people living in other nations for years temporarily, which is fine. However when you decide to make a commitment to a new nation through citizenship then your ability to mold Canada should be ceased.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Policy

Toro said:
However, I'm all for dual citizenship. I think its archaic to ban it since there is too much tribalism and nationalism in the world anyways. Canada is a country built on immigration, and is a very successful country while it has allowed all sorts of people to come to the country from all over the world.

Did you know that Mario Lemieux is an American citizen. He took it out about 10 years ago. I don't blame him since he's chosen to live in the United States. But simply because he's chosen to live in the United States doesn't mean he doesn't have attachment to his country of birth. Why would you force him to make a choice between one or the other?

I don't think humanity is at a stage where we can simply be citizens of Earth. Until that day, I feel one should have loyalties to one nation only. As for Mr. Lemieux, sure he lives there but I don't see how that created a necessity to obtain citizenship. He was drafted by an American team and thus had to move there. He's built a life there, he has American born children and so on. All this could have been accomplished without American citizenship.
 

Toro

Senate Member
I disagree.

I'm a Canadian living in the US. I love Canada. I always be a Canadian, and I will never give up my Canadian citizenship.

That probably makes some people feel warm and fuzzy. Now put that on the other foot. What about all the immigrants who live in Canada. They probably feel the same way I do. Many would not take out Canadian citizenship because the emotional attachment to where they come from is so strong. How is it better to erect a psychographical wall and force immigrants to make a choice when its not necessary to do so? How does that benefit Canada?

Eventually, if I continue to live in the US, I will take out US citizenship. I believe that if I live and work in this country, it is my obligation to not only reap the benefits of the United States but also take on the responsibilities which living here requires IMHO and citizenship confers. That's one of the reasons why guys like Mario Lemieux (and Steve Yzerman and Brendan Shanahan) take out US citizenship.

My young son is a dual citizen, born in America to Canadian parents. If you make him choose, he won't pick Canada. I don't know how that benefits Canada. Maybe one day when he's grown he'll choose to live and work there. But that is certainly less likely if you strip him of his citizenship.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Toro

I like what you are saying but wouldn't you have to pay your fair share in taxation as well (even the minimum) in order to have a vote?

Having lived here for so many years I am not up on the current government situation in Canada either and only recently found forums to be of interest so any votes I would have cast early in my USA residency would have been uninformed.

If there was a taxation or "right to vote" introduced for expats...they might have an excellent effect on the outcome of an election....

Dual citizenship should be left up to the holder....as long again as monetary obligations are met.

If a person doesn't contribute in a "residential" way to Canada, they should pay some kind of tax or fee in order to have a say in government.
 

dash

New Member
Feb 18, 2008
1
0
1
I'm reactivating this thread as it is of current interest to me--I am an expat Canadian and there is now a by-election in progress (scheduled for March 17) in my old riding in Canada. Also a general election may come fairly soon at this point so this topic may be topical for all Canadians, expat and otherwise, again soon.

There are some thoughtful messages in this thread and I have a number of reactions. First of all, the right to vote is guaranteed in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and applies to all Canadian citizens, not just those living in Canada. Some rights in the Constitution are subject to suspension based on the controversial 'notwithstanding' clause--however the right to vote is supposed to be inalienable. As such, the government has to make a pretty strong case that allowing a particular group of people to vote would create a fundamental social problem before voting rights may be curtailed.

The taxation issue, raised several times in this thread, does not appear to be an issue in voting rights as determined by the Supreme Court of Canada. Prisoners in Canada--even those serving life without parole--are allowed to vote as determined in a ruling by the Supreme Court. Prisoners presumably are usually indigent and are unlikely--if serving a life sentence--to ever again pay meaningful taxes. Yet they can vote. And, of course, there are many resident Canadians who legally do not pay taxes, for varying reasons, and I don't think anyone would suggest they be denied the right to vote.

On the other hand the Supreme Court did rule that restricting voting rights to those 18 and over is a reasonable and constitutional restriction.

Right now to register as an expatriate voter one must sign a statement stating one left Canada less than five years ago--one can include brief visits so this is not usually a problem--and intends to resume Canadian residency in the future. No time limit, however, is given as to how long one will be out of Canada, and one need only cite an approximate date. One can also amend this date as frequently as necessary with Elections Canada. The question, therefore, arises as to whether someone who may return to Canada in the future can ethically assert an intention to return and vote--especially given that providing such a date is clearly not set in stone.

For example, I have a green card in the US and have no intention of returning to Canada at any time in the future. However, my parents are still in Canada and likely to remain there for the rest of their lives. They are presently in good health, but there is always the possibility, hopefully still many years in the future, that if they had health problems I could need to return to Canada for awhile to help out. Surely I have an interest in ensuring they get good health care at that time. And surely I still have that interest under all circumstances--they are still my parents even if I never pay another dime in Canadian taxes. I shouldn't be required to pay taxes in order to ensure they get good health care--for one thing, they are still paying Canadian taxes and I have an interest in ensuring they are treated well in their later years, even if I'm not involved financially. As a family member, I'm involved emotionally even if there is no money involved.

Another point is that a Canadian who takes advantage of a specific treaty negotiated by the Canadian government--eg a TN visa holder under NAFTA--in moving abroad should not lose their voting rights. The Canadian is still tied to Canada and Canadian policy by virtue of the treaty and therefore must still have a say in Canadian life. I would even go so far as to say that a Canadian who changes their status to something not as closely tied to a treaty--eg a green card--still should retain the right to vote. The Canadian is still entitled to consular protection from Canada--not from the US--and has the right to vote to ensure that consular protection is provided in a high quality manner.

The only case where it is more questionable in my mind is where the Canadian naturalizes in another country and voluntarily renounces their ties to Canada. That is trickier, in my view, because the Canadian (or former Canadian) has then made a voluntary decision that they no longer have any loyalty to Canada. That makes the question of whether they should continue to vote in Canadian elections much trickier ethically. But until that point I simply cannot see the basis for there even being an issue.