Nobody in Canada is stopping men from marrying women, and vice-versa, and nobody's stopping anyone from attending Church on Sunday.
Expatriate Voting Policy
- Thread starter sanch
- Start date
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Policy
True, however I still want to set a good example for my children.
FiveParadox said:
True, however I still want to set a good example for my children.
Not stupid really just not that interested in being informed about broader issues that do not impact their immediate lives. There is a big difference. The Globe and Mail did a poll recently that found most Canadians know very little about Canada.
You are the one who is trying to justify denying the vote to a demographic that outnumbers the population of one or two provinces based on your own personal criteria. The practice of allowing expatriates to vote is very common world wide and Canada is a notable exception. Do you not think that other countries have not examined the same issues that you bring up and decided they were not important enough to deny people the right to vote?
We live in a global world and countries compete for labour. When you swap “bribe” for “compete” you are implying there is something dirty about this competitive exercise and that Canada should not sully its hands engaging with people who have left the country. I know I am singling you out here but I think your viewpoint reflects how Canada in general has perceived expatriates until recently. I think this view has to change to accommodate a changing reality. Joe Volpe’s comments shortly before the election was called about bringing expatriates home seems headed in this direction.
You are the one who is trying to justify denying the vote to a demographic that outnumbers the population of one or two provinces based on your own personal criteria. The practice of allowing expatriates to vote is very common world wide and Canada is a notable exception. Do you not think that other countries have not examined the same issues that you bring up and decided they were not important enough to deny people the right to vote?
We live in a global world and countries compete for labour. When you swap “bribe” for “compete” you are implying there is something dirty about this competitive exercise and that Canada should not sully its hands engaging with people who have left the country. I know I am singling you out here but I think your viewpoint reflects how Canada in general has perceived expatriates until recently. I think this view has to change to accommodate a changing reality. Joe Volpe’s comments shortly before the election was called about bringing expatriates home seems headed in this direction.
I'm not saying that people who continue to be concerned about Canada should not have the right to vote. I am saying that people who don't care, who have no intention of ever coming back, who keep their citizenship just because they can, I am saying that they should not have the right to vote. I am saying that people who never, ever want to come back, who never want to return to Canada, who will likely never again contribute to the Revenue Fund, they should not have the same voting authority within Canada as would a resident citizen.
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Policy
but people change. people may say they will never return and then return. some may say they intend to return and not.
if one holds citizenship, they should still have a say in the government.
edit: and what is your opinion on resident citizens that don't care about the government in comparison?
FiveParadox said:
but people change. people may say they will never return and then return. some may say they intend to return and not.
if one holds citizenship, they should still have a say in the government.
edit: and what is your opinion on resident citizens that don't care about the government in comparison?
Well, I'm voting in the upcoming federal elections by completing a form and getting a ballot. I get emails from the Canadian Embassy in Berlin and here's what it said:
Since I'm in Canada right now for the holidays, my 5 year period starts again when I return home to Germany. I plan to be in Canada more often than once every 5 years, so I guess I have unlimited voting rights.
Edit: Come to think about it, how does the government determine whether I've been back to Canada? I entered with a foreign passport but also presented myself as Canadian :happy3:
Since I'm in Canada right now for the holidays, my 5 year period starts again when I return home to Germany. I plan to be in Canada more often than once every 5 years, so I guess I have unlimited voting rights.
Edit: Come to think about it, how does the government determine whether I've been back to Canada? I entered with a foreign passport but also presented myself as Canadian :happy3:
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Pol
Well Summer, I grew up in Montreal and back in my childhood days my local Catholic church was always filled. Both children and adults alike. Then for some reason, still unknown to me, over the past two to three decades, the young folks there have given up on their faith. Now, only the older folks attend that church.
When we moved to Oklahoma, we noticed a refreshing change. A church on almost every other corner (Catholic and Christian) and yes, the young generation here stays loyal to their faith.
Also, as a practicing Catholic, I share the Vatican's views on pretty much all issues. It's kind of hard to live in a country with laws and government policy that go against your very religion.
Summer said:
Well Summer, I grew up in Montreal and back in my childhood days my local Catholic church was always filled. Both children and adults alike. Then for some reason, still unknown to me, over the past two to three decades, the young folks there have given up on their faith. Now, only the older folks attend that church.
When we moved to Oklahoma, we noticed a refreshing change. A church on almost every other corner (Catholic and Christian) and yes, the young generation here stays loyal to their faith.
Also, as a practicing Catholic, I share the Vatican's views on pretty much all issues. It's kind of hard to live in a country with laws and government policy that go against your very religion.
RE: Expatriate Voting Pol
I've got a news flash for ya, James: the laws and governmental policy of the U.S. aren't in tune with the Vatican, either. Ask any American Catholic.
As an aside, why is it that some people have this odd idea that everyone around them and the entire country they live in must share their particular religious beliefs or else they somehow cannot live those beliefs themselves? Few people around me share my religious beliefs, outside of those I know from my own religious body, yet I have no trouble managing to live my beliefs on a daily basis.
I certainly don't need to be surrounded by people just like myself in order to remain true to my deepest, most heartfelt beliefs and morals.
Oh, and most of the younger generation in most of the U.S. doesn't remain in the faith of their parents. Church membership is declining in many denominations, and even among those who retain a nominal membership, actual practice is far less common than it used to be.
I've got a news flash for ya, James: the laws and governmental policy of the U.S. aren't in tune with the Vatican, either. Ask any American Catholic.
As an aside, why is it that some people have this odd idea that everyone around them and the entire country they live in must share their particular religious beliefs or else they somehow cannot live those beliefs themselves? Few people around me share my religious beliefs, outside of those I know from my own religious body, yet I have no trouble managing to live my beliefs on a daily basis.
I certainly don't need to be surrounded by people just like myself in order to remain true to my deepest, most heartfelt beliefs and morals.
Oh, and most of the younger generation in most of the U.S. doesn't remain in the faith of their parents. Church membership is declining in many denominations, and even among those who retain a nominal membership, actual practice is far less common than it used to be.
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Policy
In looking at the eligibility requirements, I'm definitely excluded from voting rights in Canada. I would not satisfy the "intend to resume residence in Canada" requirement.
Andem said:
In looking at the eligibility requirements, I'm definitely excluded from voting rights in Canada. I would not satisfy the "intend to resume residence in Canada" requirement.
James, and you picked a country that separates church and state in its Constitution? I'm sure when you think back there was more to it.
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Pol
Thats why we picked Oklahoma, Summer. Over 80% of the city population here attend church regularly. My old Catholic chruch in Canada is for the most part empty on most Sundays. That's kind of depressing.
Current government policy here is pro-Life and agianst gay marriage.
EDIT: On that note, looks like I'll need to investigate, the smell of smoke around my our area. Probably related to the fires.
Summer said:
Thats why we picked Oklahoma, Summer. Over 80% of the city population here attend church regularly. My old Catholic chruch in Canada is for the most part empty on most Sundays. That's kind of depressing.
Current government policy here is pro-Life and agianst gay marriage.
EDIT: On that note, looks like I'll need to investigate, the smell of smoke around my our area. Probably related to the fires.
RE: Expatriate Voting Pol
James, the flaw in your reasoning is comparing Oklahoma (one state) with Canada (an entire nation). I'm sure there are places in Canada with 80% church attendance (and I don't really believe that figure holds for the entire state of Oklahoma, btw) and very socially conservative views.
James, the flaw in your reasoning is comparing Oklahoma (one state) with Canada (an entire nation). I'm sure there are places in Canada with 80% church attendance (and I don't really believe that figure holds for the entire state of Oklahoma, btw) and very socially conservative views.
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Pol
Correct Summer, there are places in Canada that are similar. However government policy here is more in tune with our values.
We appeared to have gone off on a tanget here straying off the main topic...
Summer said:
Correct Summer, there are places in Canada that are similar. However government policy here is more in tune with our values.
We appeared to have gone off on a tanget here straying off the main topic...
I think not said:
Yep, there was ITN. The US still does maintain an unofficial interface with church and state. Also government policy here is more to our liking. For the most part, we like the overall social climate here (the US) as compared to Canada in general.
Now back to the topic at hand, personally I believe that if one does indeed intend to return to Canada after a temporary stay in the US, then yes, that individual should have the right to vote via absentee ballot in a Canadian election.
But, having said that, would you even want to vote in a Canadian election, even if you had the technical "right," if you have no intention of coming back?
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Policy
All these “nevers” have to be subjected to a reality test. Circumstances change, people lose jobs, get remarried and all of these factors in addition to citizenship can influence where one resides. Most countries today allow for dual citizenship and among the ranks who choose this option there are probably many who do so “because they can.” One can also point to Neil Young who is a Canadian and lives in California. Young has never given up his citizenship and as far as I know has never expressed any interest in returning to Canada to live. There are many Canadians like Young living abroad who see their Canadian citizenship as a basis for their identity which they are reluctant to renounce even though they are living abroad and have no clear intention of returning. Young has probably never contributed to the “Revenue Fund.” But now after many years Young is returning to Canada more often and has become an unofficial ambassador for Canadian music. But he still would not be eligible to vote. And he still is not contributing to the “Revenue Fund.” Yet he is making a contribution to Canada. Should this contribution not be recognized in some meaningful way? Establishing a dialog with expatriates makes good economic and cultural sense and that is why so many nations are doing it in a very active way.
Here is an interesting situation that Bill C-18 was supposed to rectify.
Bill C-18 was never passed for reasons that had nothing to do with the above quote. But Citizenship and Immigration Canada needed to develop an interim policy that reflected the ruling by the Federal Court. This is the part of the policy dealing with eligibility.
So despite the court’s attempt to ensure equal treatment of all Canadians in accordance with the Charter, the Department of Immigration created criteria that again distinguishes between Canadians based on residence. For the purpose of application a letter has to be written declaring lack of intention to move back to Canada at any time. This could mean never. So we have an interesting situation where a child can receive Canadian citizenship as long as there is no intention to live in Canada which means there will never be any possibility of voting in a Canadian election. There are a lot of children currently in this category. Should these children not have equal rights as expressed by the Charter or should they be told they have only partial rights?
If you look at various Acts you will see a lot of references where eligibility for certain rights are based on residence. Is this whole preoccupation with residence on the part of Canadians archaic and out of line with the realities of existence in the 21st century? I think it is.
I think these issues are worthy of debate. At least we can start trying to address some of the ambiguities and conflicts in current law and policies related to residence rules.
FiveParadox said:
All these “nevers” have to be subjected to a reality test. Circumstances change, people lose jobs, get remarried and all of these factors in addition to citizenship can influence where one resides. Most countries today allow for dual citizenship and among the ranks who choose this option there are probably many who do so “because they can.” One can also point to Neil Young who is a Canadian and lives in California. Young has never given up his citizenship and as far as I know has never expressed any interest in returning to Canada to live. There are many Canadians like Young living abroad who see their Canadian citizenship as a basis for their identity which they are reluctant to renounce even though they are living abroad and have no clear intention of returning. Young has probably never contributed to the “Revenue Fund.” But now after many years Young is returning to Canada more often and has become an unofficial ambassador for Canadian music. But he still would not be eligible to vote. And he still is not contributing to the “Revenue Fund.” Yet he is making a contribution to Canada. Should this contribution not be recognized in some meaningful way? Establishing a dialog with expatriates makes good economic and cultural sense and that is why so many nations are doing it in a very active way.
Here is an interesting situation that Bill C-18 was supposed to rectify.
Bill C-18 was never passed for reasons that had nothing to do with the above quote. But Citizenship and Immigration Canada needed to develop an interim policy that reflected the ruling by the Federal Court. This is the part of the policy dealing with eligibility.
So despite the court’s attempt to ensure equal treatment of all Canadians in accordance with the Charter, the Department of Immigration created criteria that again distinguishes between Canadians based on residence. For the purpose of application a letter has to be written declaring lack of intention to move back to Canada at any time. This could mean never. So we have an interesting situation where a child can receive Canadian citizenship as long as there is no intention to live in Canada which means there will never be any possibility of voting in a Canadian election. There are a lot of children currently in this category. Should these children not have equal rights as expressed by the Charter or should they be told they have only partial rights?
If you look at various Acts you will see a lot of references where eligibility for certain rights are based on residence. Is this whole preoccupation with residence on the part of Canadians archaic and out of line with the realities of existence in the 21st century? I think it is.
I think these issues are worthy of debate. At least we can start trying to address some of the ambiguities and conflicts in current law and policies related to residence rules.
Nascar my ancestors were Mennonites who came to Canada looking for a place where they could freely express their religion in accordance with their values. Many of them still live in communities on the prairies and still attend church regularly. So the lifestyle you chose is readily available in Canada as well.
Re: RE: Expatriate Voting Policy
It all depends on several factors, FiveParadox. Firstly, some countries do not allow dual citizenship (the US previously didn't), and as such, many ex-Canadians cannot vote as they have relinquished their Canadian citizenship. The other factor would depend on whether the Canadian expatriate had family, friends or business interests in Canada. So I beleive that even if some Canadians do not intend to return, if given the right to vote in a Canadian election, yes many would probably do so.
FiveParadox said:
It all depends on several factors, FiveParadox. Firstly, some countries do not allow dual citizenship (the US previously didn't), and as such, many ex-Canadians cannot vote as they have relinquished their Canadian citizenship. The other factor would depend on whether the Canadian expatriate had family, friends or business interests in Canada. So I beleive that even if some Canadians do not intend to return, if given the right to vote in a Canadian election, yes many would probably do so.
sanch said:
Absolutely. I'm sure it is. However, it's hard to live in a climate where I disagree with 90% of government policy. Here it's the opposite, I agree with 90% of government policy.
The beauty about my community is a complete openess to all religions. Freedom of Religion should always prevail.
EDIT: typo correction