Embrace Islam, Tackle Allies

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
541
0
16
in the belly of the mouse
Turkey, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Mali, and Senegal are all Muslim democracies.

Interesting how the ignoramuses who claim with confident cluelessness that Islam is incompatible with democracy don't know this or that Iran was democratic until the US and Britain overthrew their elected government and replaced it with a savage dictatorship (monarchy).

Lebanon was a democracy before its civil war.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
43
48
SW Ontario
Re: RE: Embrace Islam, Tackle Allies

pastafarian said:
Turkey, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Mali, and Senegal are all Muslim democracies.

I don't know about Senegal and Mali, but the rest of your examples all oppress non-muslims in their society.

Interesting how the ignoramuses who claim with confident cluelessness that Islam is incompatible with democracy

Interesting how most of those ignoramuses are well respected Islamic scholars and clerics who reject democracy on Islamic grounds.


don't know this or that Iran was democratic until the US and Britain overthrew their elected government and replaced it with a savage dictatorship (monarchy).

History is replete with savagery and injustice. What say we learn from it and evolve, instead of using it to justify further savagery and injustice?

Lebanon was a democracy before its civil war.

It was also at least 50% Christian then. Where'd all the Christians go?
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
541
0
16
in the belly of the mouse
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you (away for the Celebration of the Chocolate-Dispensing Bunny Weekend).

don't know about Senegal and Mali, but the rest of your examples all oppress non-muslims in their society.

Irrelevant to my point, democracies are always oppressing their minorities. (Perhaps it's a requirement?)

Interesting how most of those ignoramuses are well respected Islamic scholars and clerics who reject democracy on Islamic grounds.

They can't be, because there are no "Islamic grounds" on which to reject democracy. Unless you use the term "respected scholar" to mean "someone who is Muslim, who confirms my irrational prejudices about Islam."

The fact that more than one country that is predominantly Muslim is a democracy, plus the existence of devout Muslims in democratic countries, who not only vote, but achieve political office while still maintaining their faith proves that there is no inherent incompatibility between Islam and democracy.

I know more than a few Muslims, some of whom are "secular Muslims", just like the bulk of Canadian Christians and Jews are "secular" in that they identify broadly with their religion and its associated culture without buying into the more colourful mythologies or regressive extremism.

In any case, even the more devout Muslims I know are political and participate in the democratic system.

The suggestion that there is sometthing intrinsic in the Muslim faith that goes against democracy is the same kind of BS rhetoric that stated that skin colour and intelligence are related or that women were incapable of voting intelligently.

A better question might be "Is Christianity compatible with democracy?", since the nominally Christian countries seem to have messed up the system beyond repair.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
If Christians and Jews can pull off democracy I can't see why Islam couldn't either...unless there is some mandate in their religion stating you have to run a Theocracy or something....The fact of the matter is we in the West are counting on them being able to pull it off.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
RE: Embrace Islam, Tackle

Is Christianity compatable with democracy? I don't think so.
The neocons also maintain that capitalism is the wellspring of democracy. I don't think so. We are being told even now that war is the wellspring of democracy, how can that be good and why must a democracy be the best form of government if perpetual war must be waged to maintain it?
I'm thinking that a benevolent dictatorship like Cuba is best, and that long term stability is better than perpetual partisan shitslinging involved in democracys, where most of the political capital is wasted in maintennance of power. I often wonder what Cuba could have been if it hadn't been constantly harrassed by it's capitalist democratic nieghbour, but there is no method to ensure that the dictator will be benevolent or remain so.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: RE: Embrace Islam, Tackle

darkbeaver said:
Is Christianity compatable with democracy? I don't think so.

Why not?


darkbeaver said:
The neocons also maintain that capitalism is the wellspring of democracy. I don't think so..

Can you explain the neocon perspective to us?
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Re: RE: Embrace Islam, Tackle

darkbeaver said:
I'm thinking that a benevolent dictatorship like Cuba is best,

:roll:

I don't even know what to say to something like this. Then the fringe left wonders why some of us fight them.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
43
48
SW Ontario
pastafarian said:
don't know about Senegal and Mali, but the rest of your examples all oppress non-muslims in their society.

Irrelevant to my point, democracies are always oppressing their minorities. (Perhaps it's a requirement?)


Demacracies ARE always oppressing their minorities or democracies WERE always oppressing their minorities. Remember, it's the 21st century now.

Interesting how most of those ignoramuses are well respected Islamic scholars and clerics who reject democracy on Islamic grounds.

They can't be, because there are no "Islamic grounds" on which to reject democracy. Unless you use the term "respected scholar" to mean "someone who is Muslim, who confirms my irrational prejudices about Islam."

I hope you're right and they're wrong. I'm not the one who needs to be convinced though. I don't matter. Please educate the misunderstanders who use Islam as justification for violence and opression.

The fact that more than one country that is predominantly Muslim is a democracy, plus the existence of devout Muslims in democratic countries, who not only vote, but achieve political office while still maintaining their faith proves that there is no inherent incompatibility between Islam and democracy.

Incorrect. It proves that there is no inherent incompatibility between Muslims and democracy.

I know more than a few Muslims, some of whom are "secular Muslims", just like the bulk of Canadian Christians and Jews are "secular" in that they identify broadly with their religion and its associated culture without buying into the more colourful mythologies or regressive extremism.

So do I, and I agree. My best friend - best man at my wedding - is a Muslim. I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about an ideology.

The suggestion that there is sometthing intrinsic in the Muslim faith that goes against democracy is the same kind of BS rhetoric that stated that skin colour and intelligence are related or that women were incapable of voting intelligently.

Again, I hope you're right, but I know for sure it's not as simple and clear cut as you paint with that paragraph. Greater minds than ours have debated the issue on both sides and reached no definitive conclusion.

A better question might be "Is Christianity compatible with democracy?", since the nominally Christian countries seem to have messed up the system beyond repair.

Maybe so, but that's another topic.
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
541
0
16
in the belly of the mouse
Perhaps we don't disagree as much as I originally thought. I find the blanket "Islam is not consistent with democracy" statement ignorant, counterproductive and possibly bigotted.

On the other hand, if we ask "Are some sects of Islam incompatible with democracy?", then of course the answer is "Yes."

I'm talking about an ideology.

If you want to fight the ideology that gave us the Taliban, terrorists, female genital mutilation, stoning and torture of Christians among other things, then I'm right beside you. It should be stamped out.

But I have equal hatred for the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells. Their message is the same, but they have the CIA and US military to do their dirty work. And they have no love for democracy, either. Same with Meir Kahane and his mealy-mouthed apologists like Alan Dershowitz.

Thy're enemies of democracy, all ,and share the same basic ideology of hatred and intolerance.

Greater minds than ours have debated the issue on both sides and reached no definitive conclusion.

Who are these "greater minds"? Who says they're greater? What are their arguments? Probably they're idiots that no one takes seriously except people who agree with them. Even "great minds" make mistakes.

Arguments from authority are lame even when the "authority" is specified...
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
69
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Good post, Pastafarian.

Level headed.

Spot on.

Right Arm.

Right on.

Farm out.

Some of you may remember those phrases of appreciation from a time long gone.

But back to Pastafarian's post. The sentiment
posted needs no further improvement.