Do you choose to believe what you believe?

[darkbeaver]

RE: Do you choose to beli

I chose to believe everything I believe all the input to arrive at a conclusion goes through my mind located in the head wheather the choice is concious or not is the crux of the original question "do you"? so whatever you believe is a product of your brain and therfore propubly your choice made by your bilogical computing equipment. if it's not your choice who's is it, and what's it doing your head?

 

[pastafarian]

so whatever you believe is a product of your brain and therfore propubly your choice made by your bilogical computing equipment. if it's not your choice who's is it, and what's it doing your head?

There may be posters here who will be glad to answer for you, DB, but I'd rather hear it from you :wink: : Haven't you ever been forced to discard a cherished opinion because the evidence made it impossible to continue believing it?

I would agree with some of the previous posters that reason often makes us abandon quaint beliefs as we mature.

What's in our heads is only partly due to us: anyone who couldn't get "Plop, plop; fizz,fizz.." or "Delta Dawn, what's that flower you have on?" out of their heads can attest to that.

 

[Laika]

RE: Do you choose to beli

Dildo dawn whats that mechanism you have on?
Could it be a porcelain penis from days gone by?

:lol:

 

[jimmoyer]

LOL, Laika, I'm sure there's a few more stanzas
to that ribald rendition.

And poor Jay, they really muzzled you. I would have
loved to have seen your responses.

And Dexter, there you go again believing your
logic offers proof of your view.

(I know you're not proselytizing. I know you're just
speaking for yourself, so there's no issue there.)

That kind of logic is a syllogism.

Assuming a Loving God by definition is a force that would
let no bad things happen, THEN observations of bad
things without rhyme or reason proves the non-existence
of such a God.

That's circular reasoning, because the final conclusion
is based on the definition you have of what a God,
if there is one, should be.

That's a syllogism.

Likewise those who do believe in God also employ the
same circular reasoning, the same format of a syllogism.


In fact all arguments for and against God follow the same
format of defining a God first AND THEN observing events
that do or do not correspond to that definition.

It all depends on that first assumption, that definition.

 

[Laika]

RE: Do you choose to beli

I fully admit to having no sense of decorum or "appropriate humour". The Delta Dawn thing just brought back all these long-forgotten memories of Maclean and Maclean!

 

[Finder]

I believe in god with all my heart and soul, but I do not have such belief in what we have called prophets, seers or what not you, or the books and paper we read about their beliefs. Though much good comes from these papers and people much evil and pain does. I think our relationship with the holy be it God, Goddess or whatever you chose to name it, is one between yourself and him. Though I like the stories in the bible and I may chose to believe some of them I do not buy into any faith. I have in the past, I have chosen reason over fantasy and irrationality. I think people are generally good as long as they keep their religion private between them and they're chosen, once it becomes puplic it is nothing more then a spectical, politics or just plan wrong.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Do you choose to believe what you believe?

And Dexter, there you go again believing your
logic offers proof of your view.

I never claimed to have proof, only that I've formed a particular conclusion that seems more likely to be true than any other I've heard, based on reason and the weight of evidence. All claims but the trivial are provisional to some degree, and I'm certainly willing to change my view if somebody can make the case. Several people have tried (and not just here at CC), but I've yet to encounter a case that doesn't admit of much simpler explanations than postulating a deity, or amounts to anything more than begging the question. But the believers don't want to hear those explanations, they often take refuge in denial and nastiness instead, which is not the way to make a case. I can't be sure without having seen them, but logic and experience suggests that's why some posts have been deleted out of here.

I think begging the question is the logical error you're thinking about, not a syllogism. A syllogism is merely a form of argument in which one starts with certain premises and forms a conclusion from them, like this:

1. All humans are mortal.
2. jimmoyer is human.
Therefore, jimmoyer is mortal.

Begging the question is an invalid argument that assumes the truth of what it's arguing for, like this:

Paranormal things exist because I've had experiences that can't be explained any other way.

The conclusion is that paranormal things exist, but the premise assumes the claimant has experienced them and thus that they exist. Can't do that if you expect to make a good case.

 

[jimmoyer]

I''m responding to you in the GOD SYLLOGISM thread,
because the original concept of this thread of "Do you choose
to believe what you believe" is a separate and interesting
question all itself.

 

[Outta here]

Re: Stringent Moderation • One's Own Path

I would suggest that one cannot assist another, to any appreciable effect, to come to terms with one's own faith. I don't think that it's possible for one to dictate the terms of a faith to another, and for those terms to take any sort of base or root with that person. In my opinion, one's faith must be just that — one's own faith, and while many would of course endeavour to assist others one way or another with the best of intentions at heart, I don't think that any true results can come from that.

I agree, 5Par. that said, I do think it's possible to inform by example. By that I mean demonstrating a life well lived, respectful of self and others, fulfilled, etc. To me, it is the highest and only obligation I have in convincing anyone of anything. And if all I can ever do is light a way for someone to find a way to their own faith, then I have exceeded any expectation I may have of myself in this regard. I find it unreasonable and often offensive when others feel the need to uphold their religion as THE way. Any way that gets you to your highest thought, your best contribution to yourself, to your fellow man, to ensuring that whatever imprint you leave upon this world is positive, is THE way.

It is for this reason that I hold the utmost respect for all beliefs - even the belief that there is no god. For some, the contemplation of such an entity brings more angst than solace. Why then should they believe? Fatih to me is not demonstrated by the fortitude with which we uphold our deities. It is demonstrated in the actions which define us.

I'll use my father as an example A self-proclaimed atheist, he is possibly the most honourable, decent, kind and respectful person I know. If not from a faith in a God, where does he get his motivation and desire to conduct himself in such a manner? I suggest it is from his faith in himself and in what is good and right. This to me is my definition of God in action. It matters not whether we name it, acknowledge it, or just live it. SOMEthing propels us towards every choice we make, and when we make those choices for no other reason than because they are good choices to make, and it feels good and right to make them - it is that something which I call God. That which can not be named, nor categorized nor defined. Regardless of what we call it, it is good.

so 5-Par, in regards to one of your previous posts wondering what, if any religion you could find haven with, what I'm suggesting to you in my ramblesome addled way is that it is not absolutely necessary for you to align yourself with any particular religion. It is fully possible imo, to honour your spirituality without the assistance or intervention of a third party. Have faith in yourself first. Your path to how you will honour and nurture your spirituality will reveal itself to you as you define who you are, and what you believe to be good and truthful.

 

[Cosmo]

What an interesting question! And the answers are intriguing. I actually had to think about this one for a bit.

Personally, I follow my instincts. If something feels right, I find the belief system to explain or support it. I don't have a great deal of control over what I believe ... it depends on the amount of information I have and whether I trust the veracity of that information. Bottom line, though, is it comes down to a gut feeling. I know what is right for me ... that is a personal truth that has been proven to me over and over again in my life.

Like you, Dexter (again) I would love to have the comfort of some of the religions I've studied. No matter what my personal beliefs are, I always try to be careful not to wreck it for anyone else. If someone believes in heaven and that their mom and their cat are happily ensconced there, good for them. If they find consolation in it I am glad for them.

My beliefs are always in flux. There are some basics, but I'm always open to hearing new ideas. I've studied all kinds of religions and philosophies and what works for me is a weird little collection from all sorts of places. It would be convenient to have an organized religion to do that work for me, but it just hasn't happened.

At any rate, I appreciate the folks here taking the time to share their thoughts on this stuff. This section of the board is by far the most interesting to me! We really have some thinkers here!

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: Stringent Moderation • One's Own Path

SOMEthing propels us towards every choice we make, and when we make those choices for no other reason than because they are good choices to make, and it feels good and right to make them - it is that something which I call God. That which can not be named, nor categorized nor defined. Regardless of what we call it, it is good.

Interesting observations Zan, and I was particularly struck by your description of your father that preceded it. I like to think I'm that sort of man too; I certainly try to be. What continues to elude my understanding is the need to postulate an external agency as the source of such behaviour. Seems to me we're perfectly capable within ourselves of making good moral decisions, and I'm not aware of any external agency guiding me to certain choices. Far as I know, it's entirely within my own head.

 

[the caracal kid]

but dex,

you are a product of your past,
you are a product of the interactions you have been a part of.
thus, there are countless "externals" guiding your choices.

in fact, given enough detail on your past, your future actions can be predicted.

 

[Outta here]

Re: Stringent Moderation • One's Own Path

and I was particularly struck by your description of your father that preceded it. I like to think I'm that sort of man too; I certainly try to be. What continues to elude my understanding is the need to postulate an external agency as the source of such behaviour. Seems to me we're perfectly capable within ourselves of making good moral decisions, and I'm not aware of any external agency guiding me to certain choices. Far as I know, it's entirely within my own head.

ahhhh.... now you're getting closer to what is true for me Dexter.. It does come from within, as does God. For I do not believe God exists externally from us, but rather, comprises him/her/itself OF us. All creation, is God expressed. My suggestion that SOMEthing propels us towards what choices we will make - is the possibility that when we do things for no other reason than we perceive them to be GOOD things to do, and they make us feel good, this is God expressed in it's purest form.

I have no idea if I'm explaining myself with any degree of coherency on this.

There has been much written about the possibility that we are all divine beings - droplets of god, if you will... <--- sorry unavoidable use of eLLipses there :lol:
I could list some sources, but I suspect you've already read more on such topics than I.

edited x 2 for typos

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Do you choose to believe what you believe?

thus, there are countless "externals" guiding your choices.

C'mon kid, you know perfectly well that's not what I was talking about.

 

[the caracal kid]

dex,
what makes you "you" is the history of the past interactions.
what would you be if your entire existance was in a senory-deprived isolation?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: Stringent Moderation • One's Own Path

For I do not believe God exists externally from us

I think there's where we part company. I don't believe God exists at all. My opinion is that he's just an atavistic survivor of a previous stage of human intellectual evolution. He's entirely an invention of human minds and has no reality beyond the realm of ideas. He's on a par with the invisible pink unicorn in my garage and the monsters under my children's beds.

 

[Outta here]

hahaha Dexter, I may not have explained myself clearly at all.

I'll take one more shot at it, in much blunter fashion:

I am God, You are God, the earth, the universe, all that is seen and unseen, known and unkown, matter and nonmatter.... well you get the idea. There is NOthing that is NOT God. God is ALL of it. So there is nothing external about God.

Of course this open up the discussion about evil again... and yes... sigh... I think it's possible that evil plays a greater purpose than we can possibly imagine - I've read about this a bit - with duality and relativity playing starring roles in these theories. These are concepts which I can only fathom at a very basic level - and which do not appeal to me on an emotinal level - but that does not negate the possiblity that they may hold some water. Unless they don't... LOL

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Do you choose to believe what you believe?

dex,
what makes you "you" is the history of the past interactions.

Granted, but that's not what I was talking about either. I meant that there's no external supernatural agency (or an internal one either, for that matter) guiding my choices or defining my ethics, that I'm aware of.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Do you choose to believe what you believe?

I am God, You are God, the earth, the universe, all that is seen and unseen, known and unkown, matter and nonmatter....

Yeah, I got that alright, but I don't see how defining God that way helps us make sense of anything. You've simply redefined God, in a way that the Pope would almost certainly view as heresy (not that I care what he thinks), to mean more or less what such words as nature, cosmos, and universe mean. No offense, but, so what?

 

[Outta here]

ok, Dexter, I can see why you say that, but it's now past midnight, and any cognitive abilities I may have had are done for the night... I'll think on it and see if I can explain why I believe that this plays a role in your choice to be a person who you consider to be honourable.

Thans for entertaining this discussion with me, I'm enjoying the challenge of figuring out what the heck it is that I mean! LOL