Do you choose to believe what you believe?

[Dexter Sinister]

I believe that you believe that not believing is not a belief.

I believe that believing requires a belief in believing the believable but not believing the not believable so not believing is not a belief in unbelievable... uh, where was I going with this?

Ah, yes, got it now: Right, not believing is not a belief.

 

[Outta here]

:lol:

ya got me. I don't believe I can top that.

 

[jimmoyer]

I think Zan did top the Dexter Sinister with the
double negative point.

Even two negatives multiplying become a positive.
Double negatives in grammar are a positive.

So with Atheism believing no God exists.

A belief it indubitably is.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Do you choose to believe what you believe?

So with Atheism believing no God exists.

A belief it indubitably is.

Nope. Believing no god exists is not the same as not believing a god exists.

 

[the caracal kid]

Re: RE: Do you choose to believe what you believe?

So with Atheism believing no God exists.

A belief it indubitably is.

Nope. Believing no god exists is not the same as not believing a god exists.

which is different from believing there is a separate creator or that the universe is conscious yet not considering either of these scenarios to be "gods".

 

[Vereya]

I'd just like to say a few words about Atheism. And I know what I am talking about, living in a country that used to be officially Atheist just a short time ago I believe that Atheism is a by-product of christianity, because an intelligent person cannot help doubting that there is one man up there in the sky, who rules everything. It just doesn't make sense. No one ever saw that man, no one heard or touched him. No one can be sure that he exist. For all we really KNOW, he may be a myth. While on the other hand the forces of nature manifest themselves daily in our lives. And we cannot doubt their existance and their influence. And we all know that we have ancestors, after whom we take in different traits of our character. These are all tangible, rational, believable things.

 

[Machjo]

Wow, did this thread ever take off!

 

[Crusader]

Good thread. I just read the title so far. How I wish I could choose. If I could, I'd just stick to fundamentalist christian. So much easier.

 

[Vereya]

Crusader, easiness is not a proper criterion in choosing your religion. Religion is not simply a set of abstract beliefs. If you were baptised or in some other way ritually introduced into a religion, your life evolves according to its rules, whether you understand it or not. And since everything in this world is based upon mutual profitability, it also applies to your religion. The right way is to help your religion and to support it in every way you can. And in return your religion ought to answer the questions that you have, to give you help in the moments of your personal crises, and to help you go up in life and become a happy and successful person. That is the way to choose a religion - by seeing what it gives you. So, like Dexter told you in his reply to your post, you've got to probe and challenge and to find what is yours. It is not going to be easy - it is very hard work. But I wish you perseverence and wisdom in your quest.

 

[Karlin]

I believe you have a choice.

how can I believe that? - on faith? - or because of my experience, because I believe I can choose? Do I know something about the human brain that tells me you have choice?

No, its the idea that we are of free will. Our ancient ancestors, at the dawn of this consciousness that only humans have, knew then that we had a choice now, that is surely our destiny, a goal and a success of the human race. Whereas our animal cousins have no choice, they are purely instinct and routine, humans have gained this ability. We can learn, and we have choice because we survive by changing our environment [we have no warm fur] instead of using only what is given. There are choices in this way of living. We are of FREE WILL.

That you would try to deny that your resposibilities lie in making the choices you do is utterly unacceptable. We cannot give it up now just because we are feeling overwhelmed.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

That you would try to deny that your resposibilities lie in making the choices you do is utterly unacceptable.

To whom are you speaking, and about what?

 

[Machjo]

I've read all the posts here, and interesting ideas. But I'd be curious. For those of you who argue that you choose what you beleive, may i ask you to try a little experiment today. Look at the floor under your feet and convince yourself it doesn't exist. And I mean completely doesn't exit, not just redefinition.

For example, you could argue that nothing exists and it's all in the mind. Fine, then get that floor out of your mind if you can. You might argue that that floor is just somepart of a cosmic mirage. Fine then, try to put your hand through it. You get the idea. Literally try to get that floor out of your head altogether, as a non-existent, and then come back and say belief is a choice.

Now I could just say the floor doesn't exist, but I would still not believe myself. So here I don't want you to just say the floor doesn't exist. I want you to genuinely believe it from the bottom of your heart, to the extent that you simply couldn't understand how anyone could beleive there is a floor under your feet.

If you can do that, then certainly you have prooven that you can indeed choose what you want to beleive. If you can't, as I can't, then like me what you believe is beyond your choice to make.

 

[Machjo]

Or to take another example.You want to marry, but your potential wife to be, whom you love deeply, says you must adopt her/his faith. Now if you can do that, then it's certainly your choice. If on the other hand, by doing that you feel guilty and sincerely believe you did the wrong thing and wished you did not believe your faith but believed hers instead for convenience, yet you still believe your faith and not hers even if you do pretend, then again it's not a choice. So I might be wrong, and maybe some peopel can choose what to believe at will. I just have a hard time believing it since everything I have ever believed all my life has never been out of choice.

It is not even my choice to believe that 1+1=2. It's just too logical. As for the floor, it's too palpable. As for God, that's one's bizare. i used to not believe, now I do, And in both cases it was never a matter of choice. When I didn't, I didn't. Now I do, I do. I don't know why, I just do.

 

[Machjo]

Oh, and let us not confuse belief with free will. Certainly a person who believes murder is wrong still has the free will to kill if he is enraged enough. That still doesn't mean he has the ability to convince himself afterwards taht he was right. He might be able to come to a belief that he is forgiven. But could he, through various mind games, come to believe he did the right thing? A thief might steal if he's hungry enough. But if he beleives theft is wrong, he might still have a guilty conscience. Now if he can freely choose to beleive what he believes, he could then simply choose to believe he did the right thing. The question is, does man have that power.