Do The Conservatives Deserve Another Chance?

[DurkaDurka]

Are they unionized?

Nope.

Their pay is based on the market.

If the owners (reps on the board) want to pay them that much so be it.

If the company is mismanaged it will die and a new, more responsible one will replace it.

Instead the socialists protecting the unions tore money out of our pockets and handed it to a company that should have failed for it's errors.

How do you think the Union pay is based? Market forces prevail there as well.

 

[Avro]

How do you think the Union pay is based? Market forces prevail there as well.

Really?

They make less at Toyota, have fewer benefits and work harder.

 

[JLM]

If people want to form a union in the private sector I have no problem with that at all, the market will decide what they can be paid.

In the public sector their are no standards, when the economy struggles they still get pay increases while people in the private sector weather the storm and pay more tax to support the lazy government employees.

The only way I would allow public sector employees to organize is if their jobs were open to private sector bids during contract negotiations.

This would bring some accountability, improve productivity while keeping wages and benefits in line.

Actually I was in that situation for several years after our Gov't started to get gungho about contracting out. It was mainly a disaster, even though we provided the contractor with standards manuals and most of the time when they had "completed" the design we'd field check it and to be quite frank it was often a disaster.............they were only interested in the profit going into their pockets and no concern about the safety of the highway or the cost of construction. What often happen was we (the useless, lazy, Gov't slob) would have to complete their work for them to meet time constraints. Yep, bring on that private sector.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Really?

They make less at Toyota, have fewer benefits and work harder.

Obviously GM, Ford etc believe they can still make a profit with the wages the pay otherwise they would lock the workers out. No one forced the domestics to sign off on the collective bargaining agreements over the years.

How can you state the Toyota employees work harder?

Toyota Canada average lineworker wage: $49,000-74,000
PayScale Canada - Toyota Canada Inc. Employer Salary, Average Salaries

GM Canada average lineworker wage: $69,000-95,000
PayScale Canada - Journeyman Lineman Wages, Hourly Wage Rate

Admittedly, GM does pay a good chunk more but both pay significantly more then the $15.00/h wage you suggest they should earn.

 

[Avro]

Actually I was in that situation for several years after our Gov't started to get gungho about contracting out. It was mainly a disaster, even though we provided the contractor with standards manuals and most of the time when they had "completed" the design we'd field check it and to be quite frank it was often a disaster.............they were only interested in the profit going into their pockets and no concern about the safety of the highway or the cost of construction. What often happen was we (the useless, lazy, Gov't slob) would have to complete their work for them to meet time constraints. Yep, bring on that private sector.

Gee whiz, a guvment employee giving his opinion on private contractors.

I wonder if it will positive?:lol:

 

[Avro]

Obviously GM, Ford etc believe they can still make a profit with the wages the pay otherwise they would lock the workers out. No one forced the domestics to sign off on the collective bargaining agreements over the years.

How can you state the Toyota employees work harder?

Toyota Canada average lineworker wage: $49,000-74,000
PayScale Canada - Toyota Canada Inc. Employer Salary, Average Salaries

GM Canada average lineworker wage: $69,000-95,000
PayScale Canada - Journeyman Lineman Wages, Hourly Wage Rate

Admittedly, GM does pay a good chunk more but both pay significantly more then the $15.00/h wage you suggest they should earn.

That was just my suggestion, clearly the market disagrees with me, I can accept that.

When China brings in it's low cost cars to North America we will see a market change or plant closures.

Toyota is building plants here, just expanded the plant in Waterloo, I don't see GM doing that.

In fact, here in the Shwa they have closed the noth plant and the battery plant and moved them to more buisness friendly locations.

 

[mentalfloss]

HALIFAX—Stephen Harper is facing questions about his questions.

Namely, how many he’s willing to take each day. And he’s refusing to answer.

Harper takes only five questions from the media each day – four from the reporters on his tour and one from a local reporter – unlike his political rivals, who place no restrictions on how many questions they take.

That's really sad.

I thought conservatives support giving power to the 'little guy'. If they're electing a party that puts a cap on how much we can inform ourselves -- that seems antithetical to the conservative cause. Conservative voters are really committing political hari kari by supporting this douche.

He doesn't even care about his own supporters. Wake up!

The less transparent our government, the worse it is for us because we can't hold them accountable.

 

[DurkaDurka]

That was just my suggestion, clearly the market disagrees with me, I can accept that.

When China brings in it's low cost cars to North America we will see a market change or plant closures.

Toyota is building plants here, just expanded the plant in Waterloo, I don't see GM doing that.

In fact, here in the Shwa they have closed the noth plant and the battery plant and moved them to more buisness friendly locations.

I think Chinese cars are a few years off yet but when they do, competition will become fierce I imagine.

Toyota has been building cars that consumers want for years now, seems logical for them to manufacture more of these here.

Yeah, Oshawa has taken a beating over the years, the manufacturing sector is a ghost of its former self. Oshawa seems to be more of a commuter city now then anything.

 

[Avro]

I think Chinese cars are a few years off yet but when they do, competition will become fierce I imagine.

Toyota has been building cars that consumers want for years now, seems logical for them to manufacture more of these here.

Yeah, Oshawa has taken a beating over the years, the manufacturing sector is a ghost of its former self. Oshawa seems to be more of a commuter city now then anything.

Oshawa is a bedroom community thanks to unions and high taxes.

Who knows, maybe the chinese will buy the GM plant and pay 15 bucks an hour for line workers. It would save on transportation costs.

Just need to get the corporate and buisness property tax down to zero and they will come.

 

[JLM]

Gee whiz, a guvment employee giving his opinion on private contractors.

I wonder if it will positive?:lol:

Yep, I guess it should be left up to you whose opinion is valid and whose isn't.........................F'n meathead.

 

[DaSleeper]

Oshawa is a bedroom community thanks to unions and high taxes.

Who knows, maybe the chinese will buy the GM plant and pay 15 bucks an hour for line workers. It would save on transportation costs.

Just need to get the corporate and buisness property tax down to zero and they will come.

And that from the guy who snickered at this little ditty a while back:roll:

The way to do it is to find a way to get Companies and small business to hire mor people to increase the number of people that pay taxes.....taxing small business more will just keep them from hiring more people...

I think that this has been posted before.....

Tax System explained in beer.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.' Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men? The paying customers?

How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings)
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

'I only got a dollar out of the $ 20,' declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!'

'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a Dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'

'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, this is how our tax system works.

The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

[Avro]

Yep, I guess it should be left up to you whose opinion is valid and whose isn't.........................F'n meathead.

Your opinon is valid?

A union guy?

 

[Omicron]

This would bring some accountability, improve productivity while keeping wages and benefits in line.

My gawd you're a tyrant.

You really think people will have greater job satisfaction and will be more productive by squeezing them to work more for less money.

You never read Animal Farm, did you? Or maybe you did, and it's where you got the idea.

The Pigs, who took over the economy using ideas for technology they never would have been able to think of for themselves, and using labour they lied to about future benefit sharing to get the work done, would give each-other medals at an annual convention for which of them had done the most that year at squeezing out the most work for the least pay among the workers under their employ.

Here, in case you've never seen it:

YouTube - Animal Farm

The part to which I refer begins at the 1:07:00 mark.

 

[JLM]

My gawd you're a tyrant.

You really think people will have greater job satisfaction and will be more productive by squeezing them to work more for less money.

You never read Animal Farm, did you? Or maybe you did, and it's where you got the idea.

The Pigs, who took over the economy using ideas for technology they never would have been able to think of for themselves, and using labour they lied to about future benefit sharing to get the work done, would give each-other medals at an annual convention for which of them had done the most that year at squeezing out the most work for the least pay among the workers under their employ.

Here, in case you've never seen it:

YouTube - Animal Farm

The part to which I refer begins at the 1:07:00 mark.

You're getting the picture Omicron - it seems some people aren't satisfied until people find them completely ignorant.

 

[Cannuck]

I find that those that don't have enough are usually the ones whining about what others are getting. At 300K+ income, one has to wonder why the union at GM would cause such aggravation. Could it be that the income is a tad inflated and what we have is nothing more than a case of sour grapes?

 

[PoliticalNick]

I find that those that don't have enough are usually the ones whining about what others are getting. At 300K+ income, one has to wonder why the union at GM would cause such aggravation. Could it be that the income is a tad inflated and what we have is nothing more than a case of sour grapes?

I also find that those that have plenty, or more than plenty, at the expense of others are the ones who don't think there are any problems at all and wonder why people complain about having nothing.

 

[Cannuck]

I also find that those that have plenty, or more than plenty, at the expense of others are the ones who don't think there are any problems at all and wonder why people complain about having nothing.

In this case though, Avro is showing nothing short of anger and hostility towards unions. I'm pretty sure he's jealous. I'm thinking that maybe he was punted from a job on the assembly and the union wouldn't back him up. There's no indication he doesn't think there is a problem. On the contrary, it's clear he thinks there is and it's all the union's fault.

 

[Omicron]

In this case though, Avro is showing nothing short of anger and hostility towards unions. I'm pretty sure he's jealous. I'm thinking that maybe he was punted from a job on the assembly and the union wouldn't back him up. There's no indication he doesn't think there is a problem. On the contrary, it's clear he thinks there is and it's all the union's fault.

Yeah... he might just be yanking chains to see what the reactions will be.

I've worked in all sorts of combinations of union/non-unions shops, and there's pluses and minuses all around.

One time I was in the teamsters. For that one the leadership was so far above and away-beyond me that it was my boss who came in one day to tell me I was on strike and to not come in until it was settled, and that he'd give me a call when it was over. In that case I'm not sure what the union was for.

Another time I was working for a forestry company in Alberta owned by some group in New York who were so clueless that it was the union who ran the place. If I goofed up it wasn't management to give me hell... it was my union foreman. In that case the operation would have collapsed without the union.

Then there was the time I worked for a shop of unionized computer programmers. You *cannot* imagine anything more dysfunctional than unionized software engineers. Try herding cats.

In my experience, the usefulness and utility of unionization was very much a case-by-case situation.

 

[Omicron]

Now there you go... I was starting to soften towards Harper, and he had to open his mouth.

He just couldn't stop himself from blithering out the tripe-line of, "We have to make it so only parties backed by rich special-interest groups get to do campaign advertising".

Or maybe he could have stopped himself, but felt it necessary ever since his first and maybe only way to freak out the electorate failed, namely that of scaring people with images of a ghoulish coalition, by goading with the very same words triggering that drive by the Libs and NDP for a coalition in the first place.

Remember... Libs and NDP had never thought of coalition before. Canadian civilization and politics had been historically respectful.

Then Harper tossed the line leading to Ottawa having the same thriving rolling-door lobby industry as Washington.

That's when the Libs and NDP said, "Okay, that's so bad we can choose to agree to disagree and form a coalition to stop this evil turkey".

It's not like the Libs nor NDP are without resources such that they're uber-dependent on the campaign equalization funds.

It's because they like living here. They're all smart. Any of them could have bugged out to states long ago.

Do you think Jacko couldn't rise high in the US? I'd give him Chicago. Maybe Boston.

Iggy came back!

Harpo want's (or is being told to) make Ottawa run like Washington.

Those campaign equalization payments were NOT to let unknown lame-brained parties campaign, else you'd have the Rhinoceros party all over your face with hate ads about Mr. Peanut.

They were to PREVENT this:

Google

It's not that it would tip advertizing in favour of the Reformo-conservatives because they'll drop to their knees and blow corporations faster than the Libs can lick ass...

It's because it's one of those funny little laws that seems so relativly innocuous at the start, but which has *huge* repercussions if you follow the cause-and-effect chain.

Harpo was so smug when he said it. He was goading with an inside smile waiting to see what the reaction was going to be. He knows it's corrupt, which means he's not really for the country. I don't know who and/or what he's for, but it's not Canada.

Germany, which was a Johny-come-lately, having incorporated shortly before the USA, was on a fast-track to catch up with the rest of Europe in the 1800's.

The Kaiser of Germany started Europe's first public education system (and it's first welfare system). It didn't matter if you were from rich or poor... if you were smart, you got to go to school.

England was still a super-power at the time, and snooted down on the idea, stating in their pompous social gatherings, "Why should I pay to teach *other* people's children?"

Within a handful of decades, Germany overtook the rest of Europe as the core of European culture (not civilization... culture) such that it was spawning people like Max Planck, Einstein, Heisenberg ...

They had the best chemical industry, presented to them by an English Chemist snubbed by the British snoots because he discounted the credibility of experiments done in the hobby-labs of spoiled English aristobrats who gaining praise from purple-haired aunties by mixing vinegar with soda powder.

Kaiser Germany had the curious social structure of mixing monarchy with enlightenment, which was for the day as weird as mixing a government of communism with an economic order of free enterprise as is now seen in China... but it worked and it kicked ass and it lead to an insanely outrageous war because the outsiders of England, France and Russia did not know what they were looking at.

The point is, Harper wants to hammer Canada down to being under a snooty aristocracy (probably from NY), demolishing national defenses.

What does he get for it, other than payback for the time as a junior in the Liberal party they all pushed him around for being a dweeb?

 

[JLM]

With politics I think it is important to remember that politicians like children are not consistent and often do things like play "make believe" and "let's pretend".........................so saying the opposite today to what they said yesterday shouldn't surprise anyone. :lol: