Did Jesus Struggle Like you Do?

[gerryh]

... and when it happened Jesus accused God of betraying him.

No he didn't. There is a difference between betray and forsake. Plus, he was not forsaken OR betrayed. Christ was human, in a weak human moment he ASKED "why hath thou forsaken me". Jesus KNEW that he must die to fullfill the prophesy's and to be able to return to his father.

 

[gopher]

same difference, pal

 

[look3467]

No he didn't. There is a difference between betray and forsake. Plus, he was not forsaken OR betrayed. Christ was human, in a weak human moment he ASKED "why hath thou forsaken me". Jesus KNEW that he must die to fulfill the prophecy's and to be able to return to his father.

Jesus had to know only what was given to Him to know, so that He would burden the full load of mankind woes, alone without any help from God.

It was a must and Jesus could not repent from it.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[gerryh]

Jesus had to know only what was given to Him to know, so that He would burden the full load of mankind woes, alone without any help from God.

It was a must and Jesus could not repent from it.

Peace>>>AJ

and Christ knew that he must die. It was not a surprise to him. Mathew 26:10-13, Mathew 26:31... and considering it is you AJ, I really don't think I need to point out all the passages where Christ hinted or stated his impending death and resurection nor the reasons for this to happen.

As I said before, the cry on the cross was Jesus showing his humanity. Doing something any "man" would have done in similar circumstances. It was not a statement of fact that he had been betrayed or forsaken by God.

 

[look3467]

and Christ knew that he must die. It was not a surprise to him. Mathew 26:10-13, Mathew 26:31... and considering it is you AJ, I really don't think I need to point out all the passages where Christ hinted or stated his impending death and resurrection nor the reasons for this to happen.

As I said before, the cry on the cross was Jesus showing his humanity. Doing something any "man" would have done in similar circumstances. It was not a statement of fact that he had been betrayed or forsaken by God.

I agree with all you said, for Christ had to be fully human,in His feelings and emotions, otherwise He wouldn't have been tempted in all points.
Yet, still given to know only what was necessary for Him to accomplish His mission.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[gerryh]

I agree with all you said, for Christ had to be fully human,in His feelings and emotions, otherwise He wouldn't have been tempted in all points.
Yet, still given to know only what was necessary for Him to accomplish His mission.

Peace>>>AJ

We agree on these points AJ. IMO Jesus was, and this is not the best way to put this, "spoon fed" what was expected of him by God as he needed, as opposedto having full knowledge from the begining. This is evident from an early age. refer to Luke 2:42-50. This is our first look at the knowledge that Jesus had about what was required of him by God.

 

[gerryh]

same difference, pal

No, it's not. You are looking but not seeing. You're reading but nowhere near comprehending. Like your statements concerning evil.

God gave mankind the ability to choose. If mankind chooses to take a different path than the one God has laid out then that is man's choice/fault, NOT God's. Evil that befalls man is brought on by man. Your examples of the Holocaust and abortions are both man made evils. NOT Gods. God did not kill the Jews in WWII, the Nazi's did. God does not preform abortions, man does.

SO while it is true that all things were created by God, it is not God that is acting on all things. God gave man the ablity to choose, and some men choose to act in evil ways. This is not a reflection on God's "abilities" but rather a reflection on Man's inability to follow simple directions.

 

[look3467]

We agree on these points AJ. IMO Jesus was, and this is not the best way to put this, "spoon fed" what was expected of him by God as he needed, as opposedto having full knowledge from the begining. This is evident from an early age. refer to Luke 2:42-50. This is our first look at the knowledge that Jesus had about what was required of him by God.

May I add as a similitude of Jesus this verses:
Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
Isa 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Peace>>>AJ

 

[gopher]

God gave mankind the ability to choose.


The Bible makes several references to predestination which means certain events are fated, not chosen. Dead abortion victims, for example, do not choose their fate. It is imposed. And if it is evil, then God is responsible for it. Therefore, it is you who does not quite understand what has been written in that Bible.

As for Jesus, he certainly did not thank God for his unhappy fate at the crucifixion.

Ironically, as alan Watts pointed out years ago, more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. Since it was God who created the Bible, he is certainly responsible for the evil consequences that arose from its creation.

 

[gerryh]

:roll:

God gave mankind the ability to choose.


The Bible makes several references to predestination which means certain events are fated, not chosen. Dead abortion victims, for example, do not choose their fate. It is imposed. And if it is evil, then God is responsible for it. Therefore, it is you who does not quite understand what has been written in that Bible.

As for Jesus, he certainly did not thank God for his unhappy fate at the crucifixion.

Ironically, as alan Watts pointed out years ago, more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. Since it was God who created the Bible, he is certainly responsible for the evil consequences that arose from its creation.

 

[gerryh]

God gave mankind the ability to choose.


The Bible makes several references to predestination which means certain events are fated, not chosen. Dead abortion victims, for example, do not choose their fate. It is imposed. And if it is evil, then God is responsible for it. Therefore, it is you who does not quite understand what has been written in that Bible.

As for Jesus, he certainly did not thank God for his unhappy fate at the crucifixion.

Ironically, as alan Watts pointed out years ago, more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. Since it was God who created the Bible, he is certainly responsible for the evil consequences that arose from its creation.

Yes, certain events are said to be "predestined". YOU seem to have a problem with individual responsibility. We, as individuals, are solely responsible for our actions. Using, God's fault, is a copout. Pushing responsibility for ones actions onto another is a copout.

Using the Bible as a reason to wage war is a perversion of Christ's teaching, and again, is mankinds fault, not Gods.

 

[Curiosity]

God gave mankind the ability to choose.


The Bible makes several references to predestination which means certain events are fated, not chosen. Dead abortion victims, for example, do not choose their fate. It is imposed. And if it is evil, then God is responsible for it. Therefore, it is you who does not quite understand what has been written in that Bible.

As for Jesus, he certainly did not thank God for his unhappy fate at the crucifixion.

Ironically, as alan Watts pointed out years ago, more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. Since it was God who created the Bible, he is certainly responsible for the evil consequences that arose from its creation.

Gopher you never fail to amaze me - you are the first person I have met on a forum who knows who Alan Watts is and has read his works. His messages changed my life. My only regret is that I never heard him in person at Esalen.

 

[gopher]

``Gopher you never fail to amaze me - you are the first person I have met on a forum who knows who Alan Watts is and has read his works. His messages changed my life. My only regret is that I never heard him in person at Esalen. ``


Wow! That's great to know. Back in the late 60s/early 70s, Watts was discussed on college campuses every day in the States. My weekends would not be complete without a presentation of one of his speeches on WFUV-FM or WBAI-FM. He would not make a speech unless he was smoking a cigarette or sipping from his tea cup. But everything he said was profound and ever so true.

 

[gopher]

Using, God's fault, is a copout.


Unfortunately, you do not understand the Bible and fail to note that God boasts of his evil actions and the fact that he will have mercy on whom he pleases. See Romans 9. Look further into Romans 13:1 and you will see that this God same boasts of creating all ''higher powers'' including the Hitlers, Reagans, and Bushs of this world. 'Rulers are not a terror to good works but unto evil', it is said.

My reply: oh yeah??

What you and others fail to understand is that this same God accepts responsibility for all evil and all bad things in this world because he wants you to forgive others for the harm they cause you. Why? Because it is God, not anybody else who causes you harm.

True, this is not what you hear on Sunday morning sermons but it is implicit in all biblical teachings.

 

[Curiosity]

For Gopher - one tiny snippit of the volumes of his writings

[FONT=arial, helvetica]The Essential Alan Watts[/FONT]​

[FONT=arial, helvetica]

On FAITH Faith is a state of openness or trust. To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don't grab hold of the water, because if you do you will sink and drown. Instead you relax, and float. And the attitude of faith is the very opposite of clinging to belief, of holding on. In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith at all. Instead they are holding tight. But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be.
​

[/FONT]

 

[gerryh]

Using, God's fault, is a copout.


Unfortunately, you do not understand the Bible and fail to note that God boasts of his evil actions and the fact that he will have mercy on whom he pleases. See Romans 9. Look further into Romans 13:1 and you will see that this God same boasts of creating all ''higher powers'' including the Hitlers, Reagans, and Bushs of this world. 'Rulers are not a terror to good works but unto evil', it is said.

My reply: oh yeah??

What you and others fail to understand is that this same God accepts responsibility for all evil and all bad things in this world because he wants you to forgive others for the harm they cause you. Why? Because it is God, not anybody else who causes you harm.

True, this is not what you hear on Sunday morning sermons but it is implicit in all biblical teachings.

It would be a waste quoting anything attributed to Paul of Tarsas to me as I do not put any faith in his writings. He never met Jesus, he didn't really studie under the original apostles of Christ, and considering IMO Jesus discounted the entire OT aside from the 10 comandments when he shared the bread and wine before his death and proclaimed that he had brought a new covenant for man, Paul's continual referals to OT law is bogus. Paul was the first "born again bible thumper". The original Jimmy Swaggert so to speak.

 

[look3467]

There is one point I want to agree with you on gerryh, and that is that Jesus is the final word on all prophecy fulfilled.
What is good news about it is that Jesus gave just a few instructions and then allowed mankind to develop on its own without being condemned to eternal separation, or in other words, to be if one had never existed.
That we could develop our own spirituality to the degree we felt comfortable with even if it went against structure religious practices and or dogmas.

As for all the Alan Watts types, philosophers, theologians, they are all under the umbrella of the blood of Christ.
Which means that there is not one individual claim of having it all together and correct.
My understanding is we all have the right to disagree, but to view each other as brothers and sisters with the same spiritual Father.

Therefore, the rule is, love God with all thy heart mind and soul and thy neighbor (Brother, sister) as thy self.
We practice that, then I see no difference in what any one believes, the color of skin, race, country and or language.

I believe with that understanding, I hold that anybody can say anything they want concerning how they view things and yet be just in their thinking.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[gopher]

``The Essential Alan Watts ``


Outstanding quote.

 

[gopher]

``It would be a waste quoting anything attributed to Paul of Tarsas ... Paul's continual referals to OT law is bogus. Paul was the first "born again bible thumper". The original Jimmy Swaggert so to speak.``


The Bible speaks of itself as the Inspired Word of God and that no portion of it can be invalidated by human agency.

 

[look3467]

``It would be a waste quoting anything attributed to Paul of Tarsas ... Paul's continual referals to OT law is bogus. Paul was the first "born again bible thumper". The original Jimmy Swaggert so to speak.``


The Bible speaks of itself as the Inspired Word of God and that no portion of it can be invalidated by human agency.

That's one for you!:cheers: