Death Penalty

Choose:

  • In certain, rare circumstance, I believe the death penalty SHOULD be an option

    Votes: 14 56.0%
  • I think in absolutely NO circumstances, whatsoever the death penalty should be an option

    Votes: 11 44.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Tonington

You are arguing law not humanity. If you had a hand in the deliberate voting for the death penalty to be acted against another - even within the legal limits of a series of trials - you would still have the
weight of responsibility as a member of the jury.

It can never be eraced, especially once the death penalty is carried out. It affects many people in terrible ways - whether "on the side of the law" or not.

If you killed another in a car accident without fault, would you not carry the burden even in innocence?

I'm sure I would carry a burden. It's all speculation as to how I would feel were I a juror and had the lamentable task of deciding anothers fate. The only solace I could take is that this persons fate was sealed when they committed the crime, if that is indeed what the evidence proved. As is often the case, the decision isn't easy I'm sure. You have to be able to rationalize in these cases. I'm a member of this society, it is my duty to weigh the evidence, it is my duty to rationalize what recomendations I would make to the Judge, and the fact that I am a juror is up to random chance, at least as far as the selection process.

I say now, that in cases like Picton, Bernardo, Olson, Legere, McGray, Lepine and most recently Kimveer Gill, I would recomend a death sentence. I don't think of them as particularly humane individuals, certainly not in societies best interests to keep around.

I also think people like Rozsko who kill police officers don't deserve to live either. I can't justify allowing members of my society with such contempt and malice to be allowed to live, of course given that they are proven so.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
Tonington

You are arguing law not humanity. If you had a hand in the deliberate voting for the death penalty to be acted against another - even within the legal limits of a series of trials - you would still have the
weight of responsibility as a member of the jury.

It can never be eraced, especially once the death penalty is carried out. It affects many people in terrible ways - whether "on the side of the law" or not.

If you killed another in a car accident without fault, would you not carry the burden even in innocence?

Their is guilt because we may not understand what happens to us after death.

If I were to tell you that I believe that at death, one would be face to face with Jesus, recognize who Jesus is, then all that has ever happened on earth is erased.

The very fact that your life was required, ended the privilege of living in the land of the living flesh.
Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

All ends in death! For the rich, poor, the good the bad and the ugly.

The only thing that makes life worth living, is the good we do as having God in us.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Tonington

Good reply as usual and I expected it coming from you - but you have the odds on your side that you will never have to make a decision over another's life no matter what the cirumstances.

Even an accidental fatality in which you played a primary role is a toss of the dice.

It is our protection so we may go on with our lives never fearing the impossibilities .... and expecting our days to continue without much strain on our conscience ..... it is what keeps us going ....

But....the impact of a juror's decision does stay on... becomes part of the life of the jury....even when adjudged a righteous "putting out".....it stays.

I hope you never have to weigh it's results in your heart ever. For those who do live through this experience, I hope they are strong and place their faith in the "right" of the law.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Tonington

Good reply as usual and I expected it coming from you - but you have the odds on your side that you will never have to make a decision over another's life no matter what the cirumstances.

Even an accidental fatality in which you played a primary role is a toss of the dice.

It is our protection so we may go on with our lives never fearing the impossibilities .... and expecting our days to continue without much strain on our conscience ..... it is what keeps us going ....

But....the impact of a juror's decision does stay on... becomes part of the life of the jury....even when adjudged a righteous "putting out".....it stays.

I hope you never have to weigh it's results in your heart ever. For those who do live through this experience, I hope they are strong and place their faith in the "right" of the law.

It's unfortunate how some things can come down to a simple roll of the dice. The inevitable, "Why me?" is something most have had to deal with at some point, I'm not immune to that.

In an unrelated matter I had to deal with that very question, and when I look back now I still have doubts over what I know is true. When I talk about what happened with my close friends and familly, they always tell me things like, "I won't let you blame yourself", others sometimes say "Why didn't you persue it further?" The incident was so upsetting, it's very hard to look back without being overwhelmed by all the circumstances.

At least with something like a jury, theres an extra level of disconnect. It's not quite the same as a direct interaction like aggrssor and victim experience. Hopefully I never have to play the hand of juror. Who knows, as a juror I might have some resolve as a result of my own experience, or I might be unfavourable because of it. It would be so much better if we weren't capable of such horrible things, wishful thinking right?
 

AndyF

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2007
384
7
18
Ont
Curiosity:

Good points.

I would like to add that it is not well known that we create non-citizens by the very process of the judicial system. Theoretically and actually, any citizen who has his rights removed is a non-citizen by definition of most constitutions. The constitution's purpose is to define the rights of a citizen. There is no definition of second class citizens in it, either you have full rights with full enjoyment of it's privledges or your a non-citizen.

A person with a criminal record and restrictions imposed on his activity is by definition a non-citizen. Forcing this constitutional travesty sets a dangerous precedent in today's terrorist world. Any terrorist could enlist any of these people on the grounds of their (mostly unrealized) state and that they have no moral bounds to abide by the country's law and that would be true.

It sets in motion another paradox. The post offender conscripted in war fights for lessor rights than his neighbour, and he does so in this non-citizen state. Restrictions to enlistment to the armed forces are hypocritically reinstated in war time, and seen by the benevolent society as a privledge to the offender, when in reality it wishes to take every measure to cover it's ass in this precarious position it finds itself. The offender is to put on hold all realities of his state to come to the aid of his society that offers so much. The thought of all these "non-citizens" walking the streets among their spouses while others in trenches defend their lessor rights is too much for society to bare. The enemy could just as well supply the rights that he could never hope to regain.

The remedy for this problem is simple. An offender should no longer be considered a write off, and the remedies applied seen as a process with a goal of restoring an offender's full status. All applications forced on an offending citizen should have a finite purpose, and that would include even execution if legal, finality in the true sense. A person should be considered corrected at some time in the process, and re-instated with full credentials and full rights restored.

All this is in keeping with Scripture and in the spirit of fraternal correction and the realization we are all fallible. It also mirrors the unital family, where the siblings who offend may be exiled(thrown out) , have privledges revoked, or any punitive measure applied. But one thing that never is considered, and that is the removal of his family name. He still remains as the "Smith" citizen in his family, and the family is too eager to see him return to the family unit.

There is a pardon process that a post-offender can apply for. It has an aura of vendetta around it and comes with a price tag of an astronomical price of over 300$, claimed to be "admin" fees, and comes with no guarantee of success. Nor does it do what it claims. It does not remove a person's file from the system, it just sends it further back into a more inconvenient drawer of that system. It is supposed to provide for a self imposed restriction of the judicial system that prevents it from acting out it's perpetual aggression to the offender, but does not do what he really would hope for, reconciliation. In a sense it only buys reprieve time.

AndyF
 
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L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
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50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
.......I say now, that in cases like Picton, Bernardo, Olson, Legere, McGray, Lepine and most recently Kimveer Gill, I would recomend a death sentence. I don't think of them as particularly humane individuals, certainly not in societies best interests to keep around.

I also think people like Rozsko who kill police officers don't deserve to live either. I can't justify allowing members of my society with such contempt and malice to be allowed to live, of course given that they are proven so.
Quite right, Ton. If it were me, I would not hesitate nor would I feel any compunction about pulling the plug on people like Olson and Pickton. I don't believe in demons so I would quite likely be fine afterwards, and possibly even good that I may have given some victims' families relief or some sense of justice having been done, Canadians relief from paying $85K+ per subhuman, etc.
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
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Newfoundland!
That is non-specific: does it mean do not kill ants, aardvarks, virii, etc? Does it mean do not kill anyone? and so on.
What is specific is written in the Bible also: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

good point. seems i read details into it which weren't there. I've always thought of killing people as wrong. even if they ARE bad people. otherwise i would have done a lot of killing
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
63
Toronto
so we don't judge justice on trying to make no errors. There will be errors, but those lives are given for that well-being of society, meaning real criminals are put away too.

Just keep the gears rolling and ignore the few innocent one's who get smushed in the cogs during the process?
 

AndyF

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2007
384
7
18
Ont
surely this is nonsense. theives still get arrested when they get out of jail and steal again.

While carrying out his second crime, he does so has a non-citizen, as society refused to fully reinstate him the first time around. This assuming that he paid his debt to society as stated by society's representative the magistrate, but known residual punishments not mentioned in sentencing are still being applied to him.

Every Canadian is revoked the privledge and the inalienable right to know all that is required by him to reconcile to society. By this proper act of society, it would show recognition that it has responsibilities and concerns of all it's citizens, just as the father would have in his unital family. The offender at the trial is told what he needs to do, but that is always an incomplete list, and is deliberately never officially told that he has no rights to enlistment,public jobs, and a whole slew of undercover applications. These are intended as unexpected additional "jabs" that he must endure.

It falls on the principles of what "stuff" your really made of, and in Canada the citizens say that offenders are write offs including first timers.

(Of course personal friends and family exempted if perchance they find themselves making any errors. As long has people are strangers, then what goes on here can be ignored. Just reading the public mindset.)

AndyF
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
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Newfoundland!
I thought that when andy wrote his post, he meant that when someone became a non-citizen, they actually had no legal obligation to follow the laws, since a non-citizen didnt come under the system. but he meant that some people might suggest to them that they have no MORAL obligation.

my bad
 

AndyF

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2007
384
7
18
Ont
i see. no MORAL bounds to co-operate.

You got a lot more will power than I.

If it were my son pleading for me to get help convincing someone for a second chance, I think I would be morally bound to cooperate, and some would call me weak-kneed in this I suppose. But of course the Christian is obligated to take the next step, and here he has no choice, and no one said it was easy. He needs to accept the whole nation as his brother,sister,father,mother. Doing so he makes the solemn promise to not limit his mercy to biological relations, but to the whole world.

AndyF