Darwin Must Be Taught in Quebec Schools

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
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it is not dieing..in fact if you look around the world there are more Christians then any other religon....
It is Canada (mainly Quebec) and Europe where the attacks come from. I do go to Church and have my faith. I don't care if schools teach the stuff or if you or anyone else converts to my ways. I am also sick (likely the same as moderate Muslims) of being lumped in with stupid right wing evangelists who are no more faithful then a pack of gum!!

But if some teaching goes against the faith of some they should have the right not to be taught it (within reason). If a Hindu can not wear a kurpan (sp?) to a public school and he goes to a Hindu school the government should not be in there like stink telling them all to leave their knives at home.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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I didn't lump you in with "stupud evangelicals". Give the 100's of christian sects, it is impossible to guess where one resides without some statement or clue.

Statistically though, worldwide christianity is on the decline, being overtaken by the fastest growning relion, Islam.

Evolution is a part of so many fields all one is doing in rejecting teaching it is putting their children at a disadvantage.

Teaching evolution does not deny you the right to teach your own creation myths in any way. I do not agree that a "faith" is a valid reason to not teach something. We are trying to grow out of the dark ages here, not further the spread of ignorance!
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
you continue with your dark ages statement. Like you must drag someone out of them..since you know and they must be enlightened..sounds somewhat like the evangelists does it not?

Because you don't believe, you have no idea how strong a feeling it is to some. If something clashes with some people they reject it. Again remember you are talking to someone who believes as well as lives in this world :). They have found their way to deal with it and are told thats not right..Now who sounds rightous?

Should we go into Amish areas and force them to use electricity because because their kids are not getting the benefits of the electrical age?

Everyone (including yourself) believe they know best and should make sure everyone else has their great knowledge..well how does no best?

Maybe I die and nothing happens..you win.

Maybe I die and go somewhere else..wow I was right...

Maybe Islam was the way afterall and we are all missing out on our 12 virgins??
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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you continue with your dark ages statement. Like you must drag someone out of them..since you know and they must be enlightened..sounds somewhat like the evangelists does it not?
I never said "I know", but I will continue with the dark ages statement since what we witness is how christianity has throughout its history acted as a censor on knowledge and exploration (with deadly consequences). Think of the burning of the library at Alexandria, think of the so-called heretics being killed for discovering things about the physical world that violated church doctorine.

The "church" had its run of tyrany and in my opinion its death can not come fast enough.

Because you don't believe, you have no idea how strong a feeling it is to some. If something clashes with some people they reject it. Again remember you are talking to someone who believes as well as lives in this world :). They have found their way to deal with it and are told thats not right..Now who sounds rightous?

And I challenge you, that if your (or their) faith is so strong, and their (edited) creation myth is so accurate what is the fear in teaching both?

Admittedly, on a very glossed over level, you can say the order of events given in the torah is almost a match to the order suggested by some evolutionary models (just the birds are out of order). So what is the threat? If your beleif can not stand up to the realities discovered than the beleif needs to be questioned. If it does stand up, well then you have more of a basis for the belief. But again, if the faith or belief is so solid, what do these people have to lose in having evolution taught in the core curriculum and their mythology taught in the extended curriculum? Learning more is better than learning less! Giving both may well give the children a better base to question things, and thus validate the choice of the private schools!

Should we go into Amish areas and force them to use electricity because because their kids are not getting the benefits of the electrical age?

Forcing the use of electricity is far different than forcing the learning of electricity. Understanding something does not mean you have to use it, but it certianly does not hurt to have the knowledge.

Everyone (including yourself) believe they know best and should make sure everyone else has their great knowledge..well how does no best?

Actually, I am quite low key and don't think "everybody should have my knowledge". I think everybody should have the ability to think, analyze, synthesise, etc, but come to their own conclusions (based on understanding, not on ignorance)

Maybe I die and nothing happens..you win.

Maybe I die and go somewhere else..wow I was right...

Maybe Islam was the way afterall and we are all missing out on our 12 virgins??
[/quote]
there are no winners or losers in the game of life.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
Ok this is my last post today..gotta go

1st you are confusing the religion with what is done in it's name.

I have a real problem with that! Christianity has to do the following the teachings of Christ, not running to war because a Pope told them too.

It's no more associated then for me to hate and trash Islam because Osama Bin Laden wants to kill people to the glory of God.

There is NO place in the teachings of Christ that you are to kill or even lay a finger on anyone...you are to love all ....ALL and obey a group of rules.

As usually it's the squeeky ones that cause the masses to look bad.



In the cae of evolution vs Creation I personally have no problem at all with either...I think they are quite compatable. the problem is for people who take the Old testament literally as written dirrectly by God.

The point I am trying to make is that both are theories and if a group of people can not except one theory why make them. There are missing links that could easilier be taken for holes in the evolution theory by someone who doesn't want to believe.

i for one don't see any problem we all come from dust one way or another which is what the Bible says..so what if it was one day or 10 million years..who says God's one day is our one day anyways?

But why ram your theory ?

I gotta go
 

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
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Caracal kid wrote: I never said "I know", but I will continue with the dark ages statement since what we witness is how christianity has throughout its history acted as a censor on knowledge and exploration (with deadly consequences). Think of the burning of the library at Alexandria, think of the so-called heretics being killed for discovering things about the physical world that violated church doctorine.

It's impossible to debate with someone who's material is irrelevant and out dated and mis-informed, bring something to the table that is applicaple please. The dark ages, you do know Christians have evolved, we don't burn witches anymore? Nor do Christians censor on knowledge, exploration, and as for the church being deadly nope wrong again in the year 2006 it's only painful on the pocket book.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
sassy,

this thread is about christian schools not wanting to teach evolution. Thus the track record of the religion trying to silence anything it sees as a threat is relevant. The christians in question are censoring knowledge!

Worldwide, I guess you have not been keeping tabs on the slaughters committed by christians. How easily it is overlooked. Or perhaps it was acceptable to you since it was moslems being killed?

(as to the dark ages: yes, i know you see the dark ages as something that ended 1000 years ago which is the historically common terminology. If you read my posts though, you would have understood I refer to the dark ages as a much larger time period which encompasses the present. In fact, they are something we might well have emerged from some time ago had so much knowledge not been lost through the church destroying anything viewed as a threat.)
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
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Newfoundland!
why do people think that evolution is a threat to christianity? People can believe in God as well as evolution can't they?

and yes governments always did say what the schools can and can't teach, which is why we don't have any schools teaching that the scots are evil and must be killed by hanging or that blueberries are actually green and poisonous. It's rediculous to cut the theory of evolution from the curriculum, EVEN if you don't believe it.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
50,323
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The Times
October 30, 2006

A note to zealots: fundamentally, Charles Darwin was right all along

Science Notebook by Terence Kealey


Charles Darwin: a clever man. So clever that he is buried in Westminster Abbey next to two other great English scientists - John Herschel (who invented the words "photography" , "negative" and "positive" and helped in the development of early photography) and Isaac Newton (who discovered gravity).




WHEN I WAS still at school a boy once rushed into the classroom crying that Darwin had been proved wrong — not by one of those lunatic creationists but by a fellow scientist. The scientist was Stephen Jay Gould and he worked as a biologist at Harvard.

Darwin had suggested that evolution was a gradual phenomenon, and that species were always changing to meet new environmental challenges. But Gould noted that the fossil evidence suggested that, actually, many species survived unchanged for hundreds of millions of years, and that stability, not change, seems to be the normal fossil record. The coelacanth, for example, is a fish that seems to have changed little in more than 300 million years.

Gould suggested that, instead of gradual change, evolution occurs in short bursts of intense variation, but that between those bursts many species survive unchanged over hundreds of millions of years.

So, who was right? Darwin or Gould? A recent paper in Science published by Mark Pagel and his colleagues from Reading University has now addressed the question.

Pagel argued that if evolution happened as Gould suggested, with changes occurring only when new species are being formed, then the DNA record should reveal that an old, stable species such as the coelacanth would show little DNA variation over time. By contrast, an animal such as ourselves, which has been the product of intense species turnover (it’s not so long since we were lemur-like), would show an enormous number of DNA changes.

But if Darwin is right, and if evolution is a continuous phenomenon, then the rates of DNA change in both coelacanths and human beings should be considerable. Indeed, the DNA of a contemporary coelacanth should be hugely different from one 300 million years ago, and the only bits of DNA that would be largely unchanged would be the relatively few ones that controlled the appearance of the fish.

So, what did Pagel find? He found, as so often in disputes in science, that both Darwin and Gould were right. Evolution is, indeed, a continuous phenomenon, and the DNA of old species such as the coelacanth do show much change. But nonetheless they display only about 80 per cent of the change seen in species such as ourselves that has undergone intense species turnover. Thus the formation of new species does involve additional evolutionary change.

Does any of this matter? At one level Gould’s challenging of Darwin was only a technical dispute between biologists, but at another level it is of great importance. We live in a world of ever-increasing religious fundamentalism, confounding Francis Fukuyama’s hope in his book The End of History, in 1992, that we would all settle into secular liberal democracy.

And religious fundamentalists of many stripes hate evolution by natural selection. They therefore seize on any apparent weakness in the data to proclaim that the world was created at 9am on October 23, 4004BC, as Archbishop Ussher calculated from Genesis (or at whatever date their different holy books determine).

The so-called “missing links” in the fossil record have, therefore, been of comfort to religious fundamentalists. These missing links are the fossils of intermediate species. So, for example, it was once argued that the birds could not have evolved from the dinosaurs because no fossils exist of species that are half dinosaur and half bird. God must have created the birds de novo.

Subsequently Archaeopteryx — a half-dinosaur half-bird species — has been discovered, though other evolutionary links are still missing. Yet Gould’s theory boosts confidence in evolution, because it explains the missing links. If evolution is compressed into short bursts, then the chances of the transient missing links being fossilised are small.

Contrary to myth, Gould believed in evolution. He was a self-publicist who struck a mighty pose, but he never doubted evolution; he simply used his challenge to Darwin’s particular version to make a stir.

As for the missing links, bring them on, because thanks to Gould and Pagel we know that their very absence only STRENGTHENS the evidence for evolution.

Terence Kealey is the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Buckingham

thetimesonline.co.uk
 
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