Damn Yankees Trying to Steal our Victory in 1812

#juan

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Damn Yankees are trying to steal our victory in 1812 - World - Macleans.ca

Born in Connecticut in 1749, Stone moved to Upper Canada during the tumult of the American Revolution and settled at Gananoque, in eastern Ontario along the St. Lawrence River, where he opened a sawmill and got himself appointed to a variety of government posts, including commander of the local militia. But his quiet life as a gentleman settler ended when the United States declared war in June 1812. Suddenly Col. Stone and his small community found themselves in the midst of the fight for Canada.
 

#juan

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War of 1812 Causes and Events: A Timeline

The Battle of Brownstown 1812
by R. Taylor


General Hull
In early August 1812 an American relief column was making it's way to Detroit. Captain Brush was in command of this force that had arrived at the River Raison. They were bringing cattle and other supplies to General Hull's Army. While the column was at the River Raison Captain Brush sent a messenger to General Hull, who was now in the Canadian town of Sandwich. (present day Windsor Ontario)
The message said that the Shawnee Chief Tecumseh and some of his warriors had crossed the Detroit River and were now near or at the village of Brownstown. It also stated that Tecumseh was possibly being eacorted by British regulars.
Captain Brush asked that troops be sent from Detroit to help protect his supply column. This was agreed to by General Hull, on August 4th 1812 two-hundered Ohio militia marched south under the command of Major Thomas Van Horne.
As Major Van Horne and his men were crossing the Brownstown Creek, three miles north of the village of Brownstown, twenty-four native warriors and Tecumseh ambushed the supply column to the south. The Americans became confused and started to retreat. The Indians pursued the Americans as far as the Ecorces River, it was here that the Indians broke off their attack.
The Americans lost 18 men killed, 12 wounded and 70 men missing. The Indians lost one man, a chief. This was only a small skirmish, but it did show that the American supply line to Ohio was not secure. But more importantly General Hull became convinced that he was outnumbered by British and Indian forces.​
 

#juan

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Like I thought, a British/American draw.

Hardly a draw. The British lost 8600 men while the Americans lost 11,300 men(killed or missing)
and the land that was invaded was taked back. By the way, Canada was British in those days









Official reports suggest British losses were 8,600 killed, wounded or missing, while the Americans suffered a total of about 11,300 casualties. Undoubtedly, there were many more on both sides, since the records kept by many militia units were neither complete nor accurate.
 

Bar Sinister

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PBS just had a two hour special on the war. It was very well done and amazingly impartial. Well worth watching.

It is unfortunate that the Heritage Minister tried to make political hay out of the upcoming bicentennial, with his inaccurate attacks on the Trudeau government. If he really wants Canadians to appreciate the importance of the war he should stop trying to politicize it. But I guess that would be a bit much to expect from a member of any party.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Nobody won the War of 1812, it was a draw by any reasonable measure, and really just a skirmish on the fringes of the Napoleonic Wars in Europe. On the global scale, it didn't mean a damn thing
 

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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All those lives lost and for what?

1. Canadian Identity was established.

2. The United States became a nation.

The loser was Great Briton who lost her greatest colony forever and the First Nations fighting for her..


The was fought to a draw, no new lands gained for either side.
 

wulfie68

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Maclean's should be ashamed to title their article this way, as its garbage.

It is unfortunate that the Heritage Minister tried to make political hay out of the upcoming bicentennial, with his inaccurate attacks on the Trudeau government. If he really wants Canadians to appreciate the importance of the war he should stop trying to politicize it. But I guess that would be a bit much to expect from a member of any party.

In large part, his statements about the Trudeau gov't and leftist attempts to re-write history ARE true: you can look at debates on this very board over the past couple years which have tried to proclaim that Canada was a nation of pacifists and peace keepers from the time people started settling. Canada has always been a fairly militant nation, and that pre-dates Confederation, but you don't see that reflected in the history that is taught in our schools. I don't say this to advocate us trying to become a superpower, but rather that we cannot, as a nation, be reconciled with who we are unless we accept what we have been and done. National identity is something most of the country struggles with and largely because of the white-washing of our history which adds confusion about our national origins.

Nobody won the War of 1812, it was a draw by any reasonable measure, and really just a skirmish on the fringes of the Napoleonic Wars in Europe. On the global scale, it didn't mean a damn thing

True and false. Yes, it was a small scale conflict when compared to what was happening in Europe. The immediate results were negligible (to be honest, many of the issues leading to the war were resolved BEFORE hostilities commenced) but the long term ramifications were much more important. Most of the world may not care that the conflict defined the US and British frontiers, leading to the eventual creation of Canada, but this was also the war that gave rise to the US navy, which has become the dominant naval force on the planet. It helped cement a mindset among Americans that they could stand against the strongest nations of Europe (which at that time also meant the strongest nations of the world) and not have to back down, an attitude which led their nation to gorw into what it is today. Even the intervention of the natives under Tecumseh: if they had stayed out of this, would there have been the same conflicts between the various nations and the US?

Defining victory, well its possible to see how both sides could try and claim it. Britain lost nothing (I disagree with Eaglesmack in that they had already lost one of their prize colonies a couple decades earlier and really had no hope of getting it back). The Americans lost nothing but gained a navy and national confidence. The real losers were thew soldiers on both sides who perished and Tecumseh's natives, who lost their best ally and possible advocate in Isaac Brock, and who were all but forgotten by their British allies after the smoke cleared.
 

The Old Medic

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You REALLY need to read history again. Canada as a country did not exist in 1812. it was considered to be a part of Great Britain.

The United States did NOT declare war against Canada, because Canada was just a colony of the mother country. They declared war against Great Britain (with damn good reason), and neither side won or lost, it was a stalemate. The treaty that was signed specifically outlawed the practice that Great Britain had been engaging in, so in one sense, the Americans got what they wanted.

The British had been stopping American ships and impressing sailors into the Royal Navy. In effect, they were kidnapping U.S. citizens at gunpoint. That was certainly worth going to war about, and Great Britain agreed to stop that practice in the treaty that ended the war.

Yes, Canada was invaded by a very small force of Americans. And that force was defeated, because it was outnumbered about 5 to 1 by the BRITISH settlers. Not Canadians, those folks were BRITISH.

Canada and the USA have never had a war in the history of either country. Since Canada did not exist as a country until after the US Civil War, there could not have been a war prior to that between the two countries.

It's wonderful to celebrate, but at least know what you are actually celebrating. Do not try to re-write history, you just end up looking foolish when you do that.

Oh yes, I had at least 7 direct family members that were in the Durham County Militia during that era. I also have two letters that my 4th great grandfather wrote about the "War of 1812", and his service in the Militia.
 

#juan

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Nobody won the War of 1812, it was a draw by any reasonable measure, and really just a skirmish on the fringes of the Napoleonic Wars in Europe. On the global scale, it didn't mean a damn thing

I don't agree. It wasn't a draw. The Americans were pushed out of all the areas they invaded. With the total loss of nearly twenty thousand soldiers dead, wounded, or missing, it was more than a skirmish. The war meant something to Canada. Canada was
invaded. The invaders were pushed out. It was called a skirmish by Americans because they lost so many soldiers and were pushed out of the areas they tried to steal.
 

EagleSmack

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I don't agree. It wasn't a draw. The Americans were pushed out of all the areas they invaded. With the total loss of nearly twenty thousand soldiers dead, wounded, or missing, it was more than a skirmish. The war meant something to Canada. Canada was
invaded. The invaders were pushed out. It was called a skirmish by Americans because they lost so many soldiers and were pushed out of the areas they tried to steal.

Yes the American expeditions in Canada were repulsed. As were the British expeditions to the US were repulsed including the ones launched from Canada. So I guess the Brits failed to "steal" NY, the Michigan Territory, the Chesapeake area, and New Orleans. Even though New Orleans happened after the Treaty neither side fighting knew that and you want to talk about a lopsided victory?

British Forces- 11,000
US Forces- 4,000

British Casualties- 2,459
US Casualties- 333

And the Brits don't like to count that battle because the azz kicking happened after the treaty was signed. lol.
 
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#juan

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There is much debate as to who won and lost the War of 1812. While most believe that the British won and the United States lost the war, there is even debate among those who answered this question. Below are the full arguments on both sides.
The British won due to the fact that they completed their objectives; defend Canada by killing the Americans who tried to invade.
American Deaths:11,300 killed, wounded or missing in action.

British Deaths: 8,600 killed, wounded or missing in action.
See related links below.

I would also like to add that Britain won the last battle between the two countries - "Battle of Fort Bowyer" and that during the time of this war Britain was also involved in the napoleon war. The Americans having failed all their objectives, forfeited and wanted to sign a peace treaty.
Additional answer: I'd like to add to his slightly. I am in Canada, where most Canadians claim to have won the war due to the American failure to capture Canada. I, however, look at it from this point of view: The British were forced to give up all the land gains they'd made during the war (true, the Americans also had to give back land, but it was not nearly as large an area). As well, the Americans were granted fishing rights in the St Lawrence river, which had previously been solely British. But lost the right to place warships in the great lakes. I believe it was strategically an British victory, as they successfully achieved their sole purpose.
Another Answer: The Americans had their fighting rights in the Maritimes and Great lakes taken away shortly after the war, and not returned until the 1850's. Also, most of the US war aims were never achieved. The returning of territory to the US does not mean that strategically the US won, if that were the case, then the British/Canadians won the war while the US won the peace treaty. Although the US had numerical superiority during the war, the British had more experienced commanders and soldiers for the most part in the early part of the war and by the time the American troops could fight the British on even terms, the British had sent thousands of additional battle trained troops from Europe in 1814. Overall it may be a stalemate militarily, but strategically and politically, if that was true, then the Korean Wars and the Vietnam War, up until the Americans left were also draws.
The Americas didn't win. The objective was to first take Upper Canada which they couldn't do. As I read the stats The Canadians/British controlled more lakes and rivers and killed more Americans. Plus America retreated back to America burning some villages on their way out. That's not winning, that's being a poor loser. No matter which way one looks at it the Americas objective was plain and simple to take over Canada and they retreated. strategically stand point they took more weapons when more British troops arrived they never returned. It's A Canadian win because this is not the first time America had tried to invade Canada and it was also not the first time America had failed.
 

wulfie68

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I don't agree. It wasn't a draw. The Americans were pushed out of all the areas they invaded. With the total loss of nearly twenty thousand soldiers dead, wounded, or missing, it was more than a skirmish. The war meant something to Canada. Canada was
invaded. The invaders were pushed out. It was called a skirmish by Americans because they lost so many soldiers and were pushed out of the areas they tried to steal.

You can not agree all you want. You can say the moon is made of blue cheese if you want too.

The invasion of what would become Canada was a defeat for the Americans, but the efforts the Brits made into US territory were rebuffed as well (with the notable exception of the campaigns Brock made into what became Michigan). Arguing that it was a victory because X number of men died is ludicrous: this wasn't a video game where victory is decided or points are won based on the number of enemy units eliminated.

The war didn't mean to Canada-to-be as much as you seem to imply. There were strained ties, that had been closer before hostilities broke out (there were families that straddled the border and some migrated back and forth) but there wasn't a nation of Canada to swell up with nationalistic fervor, especially after it devolved into a stalemate. It probably meant more to the American psyche than it did to the British North American one, as they felt they had stood up to British bullying and held their own. Conversely, peace with the Americans didn't change the fact that the Empire was still at war with Bonaparte and although the French building a fleet to retake their old North American possessions may have been improbable, it was not impossible.

It's A Canadian win because this is not the first time America had tried to invade Canada and it was also not the first time America had failed.

And when was the first or is this a typo? The Americans pretty much left "New France" and upper Canada alone during their revolution. There were incursions later, like the Feenians, but those weren't U.S. gov't supported and in some cases were actively opposed by US forces.