done???? still doing is more like it....you got to stop the rape before the healing can take place...
Conservatives trying to undercut other parties
- Thread starter Cobalt_Kid
- Start date
done???? still doing is more like it....you got to stop the rape before the healing can take place...
I thought they were supposed to work for all of us anyway, what they're basically saying here is you'll only get action from the government if you support the conservatives. Considering that only a minority of Canadians do, this will leave out the majority. People already have MPs to bring their concerns to Ottawa, this action also says that the government isn't willing to listen to those concerns. Once again Harper is trying to rewrite the book to gain more control and will probably meet with the same Supreme Court rejection.
I hardly think it is a new idea that you get better representation if you have a representative from the party in power. Having the conservatives give an alternative channel of representation to electoral districts that did not elect a conservative MP seems to only be to the advantage of those ridings. It is the party in power that sets the policies and it is the opposition that challenges the governments policies. If the party in power is kind enough to give a second channel why not use both channels to try and address your concerns.
Yes you do hardly think if you believe that has anything to do with providing better service to the people of Skeena. Harper doesn't even listen to his own backbenchers, hell he barely consults with his cabinet ministers. Even Toro admitted what this is, an attempt to raise conservative influence in an NDP held riding in the lead-up to an election.
There are limits to what the party in power can do and there are also ethics to be followed, this will probably end up before the commisioner. Canada does have laws and a constitution in case you didn't know (as many conservatives here seem to be unaware), the government doesn't have the right to unilaterally decide what laws it does or doesn't follow, this could violate the elections act for instance.
They're not being kind, they're being power hungry, and we've seen just how much regard they have for the rights and opinions of average Canadians in Montebello.
There are limits to what the party in power can do and there are also ethics to be followed, this will probably end up before the commisioner. Canada does have laws and a constitution in case you didn't know (as many conservatives here seem to be unaware), the government doesn't have the right to unilaterally decide what laws it does or doesn't follow, this could violate the elections act for instance.
They're not being kind, they're being power hungry, and we've seen just how much regard they have for the rights and opinions of average Canadians in Montebello.
PMs never listen to backbenchers. Never have. What did Trudeau call backbenchers? "Nobodies?"
That's why all this is a tempest in a teapot, or at least it seems on the surface.
That's why all this is a tempest in a teapot, or at least it seems on the surface.
That's bull****, my mom helped get our neighbour elected to the Trudeau government in the late sixites and he worked his ass off. He might not have had the influence of a minister but I know he spent time with the PM and he definitely was shown more respect than Harper shows his backbenchers.
Even Trudeau doesn't come close to Harper for sheer arrogance, Harper doesn't seem to consult anyone when making important decisions. For a minority leader he shows very little willingness to make Parliment work. In fact the opposite is true, we know for a fact the conservatives have intentionally been acting to disrupt Parliment. He's also been doing his best to find ways to sideline the elected representaives of a majority of Canadians. Placing unofficial MPS(and that's what they are) in oppostion ridings is just one more step in this direction. And towards the dismantlement of our democracy.
In our Parlimentary system it's the elected MPS who represent us, not people appointed by the government. If Harper really wants to better serve the people of Canada why not communicate better with the opposition parties. Instead of ads attacking his opponents why not take the time to find ways to work with them. That's what a true leader would would do, not use an underhanded way to cut them out of the loop altogether.
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I think harper has compromised tremendously compared to the platform he was elected on. How can left wing nuts in one instance think Steven Harper will do all this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kvmApqlMcc&mode=related&search=
and at the same time think he is a dictator. Wouldn't he be able to forward the "hidden agenda" much more quickly if he was a dictator. The mindless hysteria has gotten a little out of control.
It has started in some places, but you are quite correct there. Poor Africa.
Anyways, what may seem like mass insanity here in the forums is merely the surfacing of growing public discontent (not insanity) with the way our "New Government" is running things. The stalling manual, the hypocrisy with relation to party changers, the lack of journalist access, the lack of transparency in which committee witnesses were chosen, telling Canadians we will be out of Afghanistan by 2009 and then not telling our allies or our troops that, refusing to work with parliament to improve our environmental bills and now proroguing it, the skimpy come through on our Arctic sovereignty, and so on.
All of these things might be small on their own, but they are growing into a mountain of evidence that the Right Honourable Stephen Harper does not appreciate the fact that he was elected by the votes of only 20% of the population. It is of course evidence that he understands this, and you have to give him credit for maintaining so much power in the position he is in, but he has unfortunately highlighted all of the shortcomings of our democratic system.
I am kidding of course that MPs are "nobodies." But they aren't particularly influential either.
You appear to have a very idealized view of the Canadian Parliamentary system.
In Canada, power is concentrated in the PMO or the premier's office. Generally, the aides to the PM or the premier have as much or more power most cabinet ministers. Usually, there is a small group within the government that includes the PM, his advisers and a handful of cabinet ministers who set the agenda and run things. Even lower level ministers aren't particularly powerful, and are more like "managers" rather than anything else. MPs are almost invisible. Sure, they meet with the powers that be, and they have weekly caucus meetings, and they sit on committees, but in the end, they are told how to vote on almost all matters. This is why Paul Martin focussed on the "Democracy Deficit" as a plank for his election to Liberal Party leader, to get more support from MPs. Power may be more diffuse in a minority government, but, from what I gather, Canada has the most concentrated centralization of power in the executive branch of any industrialized democracy in the world.
That's why deriding the appointment of conservative riding "representatives" as somehow undermining the Canadian parliamentary system is over-the-top. BW has an interesting point about perhaps they should be considered lobbyists. But this is hardly tantamount to a fascist regime on which you seem intent to analogize.
And I'm sure your neighbor MP worked his ass off. Most MPs and members of the legislature do. Its a brutal job, and one in which most Canadians don't fully appreciate IMO. But that doesn't mean they are particularly influential.
Oh, and Harper more arrogant than Trudeau? That's about as accurate as your "Nazi" comparison.
How has he compromised tremendously? On softwood where he TOLD the industry what he was going to do and we know how well that worked out. The White House and US Lumber Lobby got $1 billion they didn't deserve and we still have a trade dispute. Maybe the Wheat Board question where the Supreme Court has ruled he lacks the authority to impose the changes he wants to make. Or how about the Afghanistan War where there's been no real debate or vote in Parliment on the biggest Canadian military effort since Korea. A war where we're fighting to support a government that has a record for war crimes and drug dealing on a massive scale. 98% of the herion in the world is made from Afghani opium, we're helping to put poison on our own streets because of the policies of this government. And sending prisoners into torture for all we know, the government certainly doesn't as was shown earlier this year despite what it claims.
The only thing being compromised by the consevratives is our freedom, and this is just one more example of that.
The conservatives ran on the platform of repairing our democratic system, not taking advantage of its flaws, which is what they've been doing. They're out of sync with Canadians on major issues such as the Afghanistan war and the lack of government transparency. If power under Harper is concentrated in the PMO it's because he wants it that way, not because he's forced to.
This is just one more power grab by a PM who by all accounts is unable to share power in any meaningful way even in his own party and is a bigger threat to our freedoms than the Liberals EVER were.
How soon we forget. The liberals put our troops in Afghanistan without any debate or vote. The conservatives had a debate,albeit quite short,and a vote. Tell me,who respects democracy. The farmers voted for change in the way they sell thier wheat. The conservatives support the farmer's choice,but the liberals and thier appointed supremes say Screw you,we know what is best for you.The rest of the country can sell thier product to whoever gives the best price,but not western farmers. Tell me about liberal democracy again. The detainees in afghanistan were processed under an agreement signed by the liberals.Previuos to this agreement the Americans were looking after our prisoners but the libs wanted to snub the Yankees so they changed it.Softwood lumber ageement was accepted ny the softwood lumber producers. Anything else you want to spin ?
How about Free Trade - to be followed shortly thereafter by a tax designed to replace all the revenues lost when those manufacturers (who paid Manufacturers Retail Tax) went south? In case you forgot - it's called GST.
Wolf
Yah, as part of a UN sponsored program of rebuilding the country in the north where most of the NATO forces still are. It was much closer to our traditional role than the current warfighting operation in the south. Harper jumped onto Bushs "War on Terror" bandwagon wholeheartedly.
A couple of hours on something as important as this is ridiculous. Harper didn't even remain for the "vote". And the government clearly wasn't providing honest information as we've discovered with the Afghani prisoners question.
Many farmers didn't want the changes either, it's only conservative BS that this was a popular move. The fact still remains that if they want to make changes this significant they need to do it through Parliment, something the conservatives don't like to do. They even put out a pamphlet to their MPs on how to disrupt our elected body so it DOESN'T work. How's that for being democratic.
Doesn't change the fact that it was under the conservatives Afghani prisoners were turned over to an authority that probably tortured them. Documents got through the freedom of information act also indicate that the government was aware of this almost from the start but chose not to inform anyone. It's par for the course, they don't want Canadians to know anything that threatens their agenda.
Nice propaganda too bad that's all it is. The Canadian producers were told they wouldn't get any more federal support in fighting the US lumber lobby if they didn't agree to Harpers deal.That's not much of a choice and we've seen who benefited most from the deal. Why give $500 million to the WHITE HOUSE, this was a gift to a administration that had done nothing to help the Canadian industry. And the $500 million that went to the US lumber lobby will now be used to fund court battles against our industry, as we've just learned the fight really isn't over.
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Wow,ignore facts that don't suit you. We were committed to take over in Kandahar way before the conservatives were in power. Thanks for mentioning Bush,the boogeyman,as the mention of his name somehow verifies your spin.A couple hours of debate is still more than the libs allowed.Now,Dion says we should pull out without any vote,liberal democracy at it's finest.Many farmers did not want change but the MAJORITY did. That is how democracy works. See people vote and if more want something that is what is done,now if more farmers wanted the status quo,then it would be maintained. How can you possibly blame the conservatives on the detainee issue? They have improved a flawed policy put in place by the liberals,and then were attacked by the liberals and the media for not fixing a liberal mess sooner. BTW,there never has been any documentation of torture,but I guess that little fact doesn't matter. The softwood industry is happy having the deal,they did not want 8 more years of uncertainty. They did not get all they wanted,but that happens in any negotiated deal.Ces't la vie.
I honestly can't believe that some are even debating this. To defend actions of trying to sidestep the will of the constituents in democratically electing their representation is absurd.
Then what is the point of elections? Is it then just some big exercise of dropping paper in a box to mean absolutely nothing?!
It's not up to the party in power to put in their own people in areas where they lost in a fair vote. Rather it's up to them to work with the person who was fairly elected regardless of their party affiliation. That is our system of democracy! That is how it works. If you emasculate the person who's fairly elected, then you emasculate the democracy. The title one holds for their riding starts to become meaningless. Ridings might as well just hire non partisan managers who will represent the interests if elections don’t mean anything.
Basically anyone who is defending this is saying the Conservatives will work with the person you voted, but they will have their own representative as well to which they will get things done through (or else what is the point?). What a load of giant cow manure! Anyone who supports this is dangerously giving a government in power a loophole to render the democratically elected representative ineffectual because honestly, these politicians are not Mother Teresa. It's not going to empower a riding with greater representation, it's going to simply weaken the person who’s actually voted in.
What the hell is going on in peoples heads these days?! Has it gotten to the point that we are willing to throw out systems which better afford us from being vulnerable to corruption of power because in today’s world we just accept authority in the unconditional faith that government or politicians aren’t going to abuse their position?
Why stop here then? Forget elections all together because if you are going to have a Conservative in an NDP riding, you might as well have an NDP and a Liberal representative in the Conservative ridings and have one gigantic bureaucracy of competing officials and interests who might never agree on what issues need to be addressed in each riding. Sure, forget democracy, let’s just have a giant multi-micro-representational joke of a nation.
While the government in power says it will work with the elected official as well as their own representative, who here would like to honestly share with me their fantasy that if the opposition parties put in their own representatives in Conservative ridings that the Conservative Government in power is going to give such other representatives a lending hand to have any of their concerns acted upon?
Yeah right, we are just surrounded by a bunch of fricking angels.