Conservatives continue to soften tone on Northern Gateway pipeline

[JLM]

If the people who perform monkey wrenching had been trying for Years to find an ear willing to listen let alone actually hear, would you have more respect for them? I understand that this is an emotional issue for you, and I agree that loggers should never have been subjected to dangerous practices. But I also think you will agree that areas like the Great Bear rainforest, or the Island old growth, would be all gone by now if attention hadn't been brought to them.

And as emotional as it is for you, I am sure that those few specific trees were chosen only because they were the next in line, and if you don't get attention there then the next trees in line will get the attention. Idiots? the ones who chained themselves to equipment or trees? I don't think so. Compared to the idiots who were and largely still are giving our logs away the chainees are going to be my friends.

Well I hadn't thought of myself as being emotional but perhaps I am when it comes to choosing sides between industrial types like loggers and a bunch of god damn drones who sit on their ass collecting welfare except when they can f**k things up for the people who feed them. Sure they were some bad logging practices by corporate giants like MacMillan Bloedel, but you don't fight them by being as ignorant as they are and you don't take it out on the wageslave. What do these idiots use to wipe their ass anyway?

 

[petros]

don't fight them by being as ignorant as they are and you don't take it out on the wageslave. What do these idiots use to wipe their ass anyway?

I hired a couple of tree planters after the big push in silverculture to appease tree huggers which peaked out for some odd reason which l'll explain shortly. Anyhoo one of the guys was a hippy dippy from BC greenie who refused to use bum fluff {toilet paper) and the other a SK born and raised native guy from LaRonge. The hippy dippy greenie would use a rag to wash his ass with water and no soap (because soap isn't green) from a really small,shallow muskeg lake. On about the third or fourth day the native guy saw him doing it and laughed at him asking if he was crazy. Two days later he was airlifted to Prince Albert to treat Giardia.

As for the hastily planted trees in the 90's by pressure from the greenies. It did far more harm to the harvested forest eco-system than what as being done prior for over 500 years. The plots should have sat far longer than they did before replanting trees. It's like crop rotation for grains and other crops you need to give the soil time to recover. You need three basic things for healthy soil. Mycocultures (mycelium, fungi, shrooms), bacteria and insects. Without them all you have is dirt (soil and dirt are light years apart) that will wash way blow, away in the wind or turn rock hard. Leave it to green pressure to **** things up every time.

I miss the 80's, toilet paper was cheap, newsprint and computer paper were Canadian made before the pulp industry was tree hugged out of the country and now these fools have the audacity to complain that Canada is losing manufacturing jobs. Paper and lumber are manufactured goods AND renewable resources.

Toilet paper hs come a long way thanks to free raw material people buy and put in blue bins. TP companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

Kruger Paper's New Westminster production facility.​

November 22, 2010 - Kruger Products, Canada’s leading manufacturer of quality tissue products, today launched Sustainability 2015, an ambitious five-year plan aimed at reducing the company’s environmental footprint. To do so, the company has set quantifiable targets for improving its environmental performance and is focusing on the use of innovative technologies.

“With Sustainability 2015, Kruger Products intends to become the largest supplier of quality tissue products in North America whose formal commitment to sustainable development will be reflected in concrete actions throughout our value chain, from procurement to product packaging,” said Mario Gosselin, Chief Operating Officer at Kruger Products.

Seven sectors targeted for reducing the company’s environmental footprint

Kruger Products has identified seven sectors where it will take concrete action over the next five years to significantly reduce its environmental footprint: fibres, packaging, water, energy, greenhouse gas emissions, transport and waste. For each one, the company has set a specific goal: using fibres that come exclusively from certified sustainable sources or contain a high percentage of post-consumer recycled material; reducing the packaging of its products by 5%; reducing its water and energy consumption by 15% each; lowering its general greenhouse gases as well as those generated by its transport operations by 15% each, and diverting 20% of its waste from landfill sites.

“Increasingly, consumers are calling for more environmentally responsible products. At Kruger Products, we have long been concerned with the idea of sustainability; our first reforestation program dates back 62 years. We were also among the first pulp and paper companies to set up recycling programs and manufacture products entirely from recycled fibres,” explained Steven Sage, Corporate director, Sustainable Development and Innovation. “Today, we are focusing on innovations in technology and products to continue our long-standing tradition.”

Improved technologies to benefit the environment

Kruger Products has introduced projects to improve technologies at its various facilities in Canada in order to integrate renewable energy sources into its operations and reduce its overall energy consumption. The company has already seen the beneficial effects of these improvements. In New Westminster, BC, Kruger Products introduced state-of-the-art, award-winning biomass gasification technology that significantly reduces greenhouse gas emissions at the mill.

“Since it came on line ten months ago, the biomass gasification system has already reduced emissions at the plant by 35%, which compares to planting two million trees or removing 3,500 vehicles from the roads,” said Frank van Biesen, Vice President, Technology, for Kruger Products. “This technology allows us to make concrete improvements and move toward our sustainable development goals.”

Kruger Products offers one of Canada’s most extensive lines of EcoLogo-certified tissue products for in-home and away-from-home use with more than 90 products bearing the seal. EcoLogo’s third-party multi-attribute certification program is recognized as one of the most stringent in North America. Some of Kruger’s best known brands to have earned certification include: Cashmere EnviroPlus, Purex EnviroPlus, SpongeTowels EnviroPlus, Scotties EnviroPlus, Embassy and White Swan. These products are made with high-quality certified fibres from recycled materials and renewable sources.

 

[beaker]

I'm sure the folks in Everett WA would be pickled tink to have a pipeline. Puget sound is already pooched from industry just like the waters around Kitimat are alrready pooched from sodium fluoride from aluminum smelting. That is why Kitimat was chosen. You can't kill something already dead.

Do you have a reference to the waters around Kitmat being dead?

As for the hastily planted trees in the 90's by pressure from the greenies. It did far more harm to the harvested forest eco-system than what as being done prior for over 500 years. The plots should have sat far longer than they did before replanting trees. It's like crop rotation for grains and other crops you need to give the soil time to recover. You need three basic things for healthy soil. Mycocultures (mycelium, fungi, shrooms), bacteria and insects. Without them all you have is dirt (soil and dirt are light years apart) that will wash way blow, away in the wind or turn rock hard. Leave it to green pressure to **** things up every time.

Do you have any reference showing that replanting the way it was done is worse than the damage done to the forests for the 500 years prior to that?

Well I hadn't thought of myself as being emotional but perhaps I am when it comes to choosing sides between industrial types like loggers and a bunch of god damn drones who sit on their ass collecting welfare except when they can f**k things up for the people who feed them. Sure they were some bad logging practices by corporate giants like MacMillan Bloedel, but you don't fight them by being as ignorant as they are and you don't take it out on the wageslave. What do these idiots use to wipe their ass anyway?

So how would you recommend fighting them, what strategies would you use that would be more effective than those used by people opposed to the logging companies who were screwing things up for people all over Canada? Not what wouldn't you do, what would you have done.

 

[petros]

Do you have a reference to the waters around Kitmat being dead?



Do you have any reference showing that replanting the way it was done is worse than the damage done to the forests for the 500 years prior to that?

You don't know how to spell GOOGLE? Ever heard of a place called Europe?

 

[beaker]

You don't know how to spell GOOGLE? Ever heard of a place called Europe?

I asked two questions, Can't answer them?

 

[petros]

Yeah I can. Got the numbers on the wind genny losses yet??

 

[JLM]

So how would you recommend fighting them, what strategies would you use that would be more effective than those used by people opposed to the logging companies who were screwing things up for people all over Canada? Not what wouldn't you do, what would you have done.

What would I do?
1. Identify the "problem"
2. Identify the size of the "problem"
3. Consult with a disinterested third party to see if it is a problem.
4. Identify alternative methods that are beneficial and cause minimal disruptions.
5. Take all the findings to the perpetrator of the problem along with a c.c. to Minister of Forests and Minister of the Environment and Federal Fisheries.

Two practices that were bad were huge clear cuts and logging right up to stream beds. Clear cuts are necessary for the safety of the fallers, falling is even more dangerous if not done into an open "face". So the size of clearcuts can be reduced a little but more important is to leave fringes of trees at regular intervals to impede soil erosion.
As I've pointed out there is a sane way to deal with the problem besides smearing human feces on skidders.

 

[petros]

As I've pointed out there is a sane way to deal with the problem besides smearing human feces on skidders.

****heads sometimes leave ****head stains.

 

[beaker]

Yeah I can. Got the numbers on the wind genny losses yet??

No you can't, because your comments about re-forestation were just another example of your ridiculousness. As is your continued attempt to define a problem with windmills, singlehandedly determine that the problem can't be fixed, and then demand that the problem which you have made up is recognized as too expensive. ridiculous, but there you are.

What would I do?
1. Identify the "problem"
2. Identify the size of the "problem"
3. Consult with a disinterested third party to see if it is a problem.
4. Identify alternative methods that are beneficial and cause minimal disruptions.
5. Take all the findings to the perpetrator of the problem along with a c.c. to Minister of Forests and Minister of the Environment and Federal Fisheries.

Two practices that were bad were huge clear cuts and logging right up to stream beds. Clear cuts are necessary for the safety of the fallers, falling is even more dangerous if not done into an open "face". So the size of clearcuts can be reduced a little but more important is to leave fringes of trees at regular intervals to impede soil erosion.
As I've pointed out there is a sane way to deal with the problem besides smearing human feces on skidders.

I have already agreed that some of the things done by environmentalists are really stupid, Not nearly as damaging as selling our logs, or oil for that matter, at less than cost, or ramming through a pipeline, or a sawmill that can only last thirty years because the woods will be bare by then.

But I was at meetings where your suggestions were carried out, and more, with industry reps, and ministry people. Those talks didn't do ANY good. The same clearcuts continued. The same reckless use of old growth forest and ecosystem habitat. The re-forestation that wasn't happening. Now that attention has been focussed on a picture larger than Mac Blos profit margin things are better, although it is a continuing battle. It is a good thing that the battle can now follow regulatory lines.


Back to the pipeline, how many have noticed in the last few weeks the explosion of concern and promises of caution for the environment coming out of Enbridge. Perhaps this is the reason for the Conservatives to seem soft on the pipeline right now. Gving the pipeline proponents a chance to as they put it make a better pr campaign in favour of the proposed line.

From the federal New Democrats,

NDP to Conservatives: come clean on secret oil sands committee

The Conservatives are again on the hot seat today for their close relationship with oil lobbyists after reports surfaced of secret meetings between government officials and oil industry lobbyists about how to promote the oil sands.

“What we’re asking for isn’t difficult or controversial. We’re simply asking the Conservatives to release minutes and recommendations of this committee publicly so Canadians can scrutinize their work,” added Leslie.

 

[petros]

No you can't, because your comments about re-forestation were just another example of your ridiculousness. As is your continued attempt to define a problem with windmills, singlehandedly determine that the problem can't be fixed, and then demand that the problem which you have made up is recognized as too expensive. ridiculous, but there you are.

Occitan region of France.....it's on GOOGLE just like i said it would be. If I have to tap into the grid after blowing $55K then your soultion isn't a solution you'd still be part of the GHG problem and losing $30K

What a great idea.

 

[JLM]

No you can't, because your comments about re-forestation were just another example of your ridiculousness. As is your continued attempt to define a problem with windmills, singlehandedly determine that the problem can't be fixed, and then demand that the problem which you have made up is recognized as too expensive. ridiculous, but there you are.



I have already agreed that some of the things done by environmentalists are really stupid, Not nearly as damaging as selling our logs, or oil for that matter, at less than cost, or ramming through a pipeline, or a sawmill that can only last thirty years because the woods will be bare by then.

But I was at meetings where your suggestions were carried out, and more, with industry reps, and ministry people. Those talks didn't do ANY good. The same clearcuts continued. The same reckless use of old growth forest and ecosystem habitat. The re-forestation that wasn't happening. Now that attention has been focussed on a picture larger than Mac Blos profit margin things are better, although it is a continuing battle. It is a good thing that the battle can now follow regulatory lines.


Back to the pipeline, how many have noticed in the last few weeks the explosion of concern and promises of caution for the environment coming out of Enbridge. Perhaps this is the reason for the Conservatives to seem soft on the pipeline right now. Gving the pipeline proponents a chance to as they put it make a better pr campaign in favour of the proposed line.

From the federal New Democrats,

NDP to Conservatives: come clean on secret oil sands committee

The Conservatives are again on the hot seat today for their close relationship with oil lobbyists after reports surfaced of secret meetings between government officials and oil industry lobbyists about how to promote the oil sands.

“What we’re asking for isn’t difficult or controversial. We’re simply asking the Conservatives to release minutes and recommendations of this committee publicly so Canadians can scrutinize their work,” added Leslie.

I've been away from most of it for the past 15 years, but the logging companies did make major changes back in the 70s and 80s. One particular disturbing thing was the clear cut of an entire mountain side near Kennedy Lake (Hwy.4- Alberni - Ucluelet)

 

[Mowich]

Not nearly as damaging [/B]as selling our logs, or oil for that matter, at less than cost, or ramming through a pipeline, or a sawmill that can only last thirty years because the woods will be bare by then.

Really..............tell that to loggers who were injured when cutting down spiked trees.

Each side of the debate has pros and cons. I don't agree with selling our raw logs either but some of the actions taken by extreme environmental organizations do nothing to help the problem.

 

[beaker]

Really..............tell that to loggers who were injured when cutting down spiked trees.

Each side of the debate has pros and cons. I don't agree with selling our raw logs either but some of the actions taken by extreme environmental organizations do nothing to help the problem.

The full sentence from which you were quoting...

"I have already agreed that some of the things done by environmentalists are really stupid, Not nearly as damaging as selling our logs, or oil for that matter, at less than cost, or ramming through a pipeline, or a sawmill that can only last thirty years because the woods will be bare by then."

And even though that stupidity caused injuries, and should not have happened, the damage done by the logging companies and the contractors who were willing to continue on as though there were no problem has been worse.

It is time for a really good debate with all the information that jlm talked about earlier to be held in a public forum. The Conservatives, despite apparently softening their stand on the proposed pipeline, have not yet reversed their legislation that has removed Canadians rights to express their concerns, or have the Hearing Panel make the decision.

 

[mentalfloss]

Northern Gateway pipeline review panel demands consideration of 'Keystone Kops' report on Enbridge

 

[beaker]

Northern Gateway pipeline review panel demands consideration of 'Keystone Kops' report on Enbridge

thumbs up. Discussion surrounding that will be really helpful.

 

[JLM]

"Compared to the idiots who were and largely still are giving our logs away the chainees are going to be my friends"- Of course the best case scenario is to get the best price for our logs or better still process them. I'm sure if that was always possible it would be done. But you have to look at the whole picture and not go off half cocked on some hare brained idea. First we have billions of board feet of timber that is dying from pine beetle kill, in a few years that wood will be absolutely useless for anything except fire wood. So we can wait until it's worth nothing or perhaps get 10 cents on the dollar for it now. Actually more than that because removing dead trees reduces fire hazard, that will not only burn the dead but the merchantable timber. We have people employed in the industry with $millions tied up in equipment who are struggling due to poor foreign markets. There again maybe a $ is better than no $. Think before you go off half cocked.

 

[beaker]

"Compared to the idiots who were and largely still are giving our logs away the chainees are going to be my friends"-

Of course the best case scenario is to get the best price for our logs or better still process them. I'm sure if that was always possible it would be done. But you have to look at the whole picture and not go off half cocked on some hare brained idea. First we have billions of board feet of timber that is dying from pine beetle kill, in a few years that wood will be absolutely useless for anything except fire wood. So we can wait until it's worth nothing or perhaps get 10 cents on the dollar for it now. Actually more than that because removing dead trees reduces fire hazard, that will not only burn the dead but the merchantable timber. We have people employed in the industry with $millions tied up in equipment who are struggling due to poor foreign markets. There again maybe a $ is better than no $. Think before you go off half cocked.

I don't think that is my problem, I haven't and I don't know anyone who has gotten upset with the harvest of beetle killed wood, or the sale of it. As a matter of fact I try to encourage people to put pine in their houses instead of gyproc for walls or ceilings. much better finish, stronger (especially in rentals) and right now not much different in price when it's all done.

The difference is that the bitumen sands.... aren't going anywhere. There is no panic about getting them into higher production, the employment involved now is more than Fort Mac can handle, plus the environment can get a break and industry can hire some smart young people who can figure out how we can use it without screwing everything up but the corporate profits.

 

[JLM]

"Compared to the idiots who were and largely still are giving our logs away the chainees are going to be my friends"-




I don't think that is my problem, I haven't and I don't know anyone who has gotten upset with the harvest of beetle killed wood, or the sale of it. As a matter of fact I try to encourage people to put pine in their houses instead of gyproc for walls or ceilings. much better finish, stronger (especially in rentals) and right now not much different in price when it's all done.

.

The price difference comes in when you go to buy fire insurance!

 

[Kakato]

I hope the B.C. premier keeps it up and Alberta finally decides to build some more refineries.
We lose millions of dollars by exporting our crude for refining.

 

[Spade]

I hope the B.C. premier keeps it up and Alberta finally decides to build some more refineries.
We lose millions of dollars by exporting our crude for refining.

Excellent point. Also, in my opinion, the Northern Gateway Pipeline to carry diluted bitumen to the Coast will not be built in our lifetime.