Claresholm, AB Killer - Were Antipsychotics to Blame?

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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lol Karrie..

excuses excuses...

Bottom line Karrie.... you stand to be corrected ..

Murder in Canada has increased not decreased!

lol, the crux of your assertion isn't that murder increased over a one year period.

The crux of your opinion is that anti-depressants cause murders.

By that logic, one should be able to see, with the high increase in anti-depressant use over the last three decades, a steady climb in te murder rate as well. But it's not there, instead there was a drastic decrease over decades, and only one year where it rose.
 

no more drugs

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Jan 21, 2013
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lol, the crux of your assertion isn't that murder increased over a one year period.

The crux of your opinion is that anti-depressants cause murders.

By that logic, one should be able to see, with the high increase in anti-depressant use over the last three decades, a steady climb in te murder rate as well. But it's not there, instead there was a drastic decrease over decades, and only one year where it rose.
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Karrie,

What purpose does it serve for you to dictate what a fellow members opinion is?

The reason your credibility is questioned is because you put words in peoples mouths, and have a double standard system.

My opinion is that there may be a link in murder suicides and pschopharmaceuticals, and it has been a tireless journey in trying to find out.

You apparently have not read my posts and continue to misrepresent my writing.

I have shared my experience in noting my opinions in this forum, the journey I have taken to try and find some some answers in determing if there is a link.

If you dont believe there is a link, then you are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. Its OK if you disagree..!
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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So long as you're on here posting multiple threads on the subject, expect people to disagree and offer the counter argument.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing research that suggests a direct link saying there's an actual causal effect, one that says there's an exaggerative effect, or whatever. Otherwise it's just as good to guess that global warming or increased petroleum consumption or increased use of sugar-alternatives is causing rises in murder suicides.
 

no more drugs

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Jan 21, 2013
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Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing research that suggests a direct link saying there's an actual causal effect, one that says there's an exaggerative effect, or whatever. Otherwise it's just as good to guess that global warming or increased petroleum consumption or increased use of sugar-alternatives is causing rises in murder suicides.


Huh?

Im not sure what you are asking .. Lets start here...

Do you know that suicide and homicide ideation agressive and violent behavior (to name a few) are named adverse reaction on antidepressanst and antipsychotics?
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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Huh?

Im not sure what you are asking .. Lets start here...

Do you know that suicide and homicide ideation agressive and violent behavior (to name a few) are named adverse reaction on antidepressanst and antipsychotics?
I'd like to see the research on it. :) Which ones, how many of them, etc. And I am not interested in the ones that are no longer used. I`d also like to see research showing that other factors are not also involved (like was booze ingested with the drugs, any recent traumatic events in their lives, or anything else that may have triggered the results).
Research is all about thoroughness. Not just hitting on an idea, making a conclusion, and then looking for anything to support the conclusion. Real researchers hit upon an idea and then collect facts from hell to breakfast and let the evidence from those facts steer them to a conclusion.
Label warnings are just that. All kinds of possibilities can occur.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Huh?

Im not sure what you are asking .. Lets start here...

Do you know that suicide and homicide ideation agressive and violent behavior (to name a few) are named adverse reaction on antidepressanst and antipsychotics?


I'm confused as to how they got to be named side effects given what you said about the medical community ignoring patient input, autopsy results, etc.
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
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I'd like to see the research on it. :) Which ones, how many of them, etc. And I am not interested in the ones that are no longer used. I`d also like to see research showing that other factors are not also involved (like was booze ingested with the drugs, any recent traumatic events in their lives, or anything else that may have triggered the results).
Research is all about thoroughness. Not just hitting on an idea, making a conclusion, and then looking for anything to support the conclusion. Real researchers hit upon an idea and then collect facts from hell to breakfast and let the evidence from those facts steer them to a conclusion.
Label warnings are just that. All kinds of possibilities can occur.

I'm just going to bold that and increase the font size. Just because. ;)
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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NMD is a one trick pony on a mission. From Gawd. Like all people on a mission facts are secondary to the mission's success. Cerry picking facts to support your conclusion is also an acceptable practice.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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When I started Paxil back in 2001, they were NOT listed side effects, and have since been added. How did that happen?
 

no more drugs

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Jan 21, 2013
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I'm confused as to how they got to be named side effects given what you said about the medical community ignoring patient input, autopsy results, etc.

Karrie,

Side effects have its own deinition... the ones I refer to are called adverse reactions...

Side effects are what you get on a list from the pharmacist on a hand out.. the adverse reactions for the most part are hidden. They are listed in the drug monograph.

The drug monograph is delivered with each container of the given med..

The med is doled out into a new bottle (without the monograph) and has a hand out from the drug store.

There is no regulation on how many "side effects: need to be listed, and there is no regulation that the adverse reactions be told or given out ...

Here is some of the monograph for Wellbutrin...

WELLBUTRIN, WELLBUTRIN SR, and WELLBUTRIN XL are not approved for smoking cessation treatment, but bupropion under the name ZYBAN is approved for this use. Serious neuropsychiatric symptoms have been reported in patients taking bupropion for smoking cessation (see BOXED WARNING, ADVERSE REACTIONS). These have included changes in mood (including depression and mania), psychosis, hallucinations, paranoia, delusions, homicidal ideation, hostility, agitation, aggression, anxiety, and panic, as well as suicidal ideation, suicide attempt, and completed suicide. Some reported cases may have been complicated by the symptoms of nicotine withdrawal in patients who stopped smoking. Depressed mood may be a symptom of nicotine withdrawal. Depression, rarely including suicidal ideation, has been reported in smokers undergoing a smoking cessation attempt without medication. However, some of these symptoms have occurred in patients taking bupropion who continued to smoke. When symptoms were reported, most were during bupropion treatment, but some were following discontinuation of bupropion therapy.

Wellbutrin (Bupropion Hcl) Drug Information: Warnings and Precautions - Prescribing Information at RxList
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Oh my god, so sorry to have used the wrong term....

How did the adverse reactions end up listed (they were not until recent years realized/acknowledged), when pharmacists, doctors, coroners, and pharmaceutical companies, are all not paying attention?
 

no more drugs

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Jan 21, 2013
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Oh my god, so sorry to have used the wrong term....

How did the adverse reactions end up listed (they were not until recent years realized/acknowledged), when pharmacists, doctors, coroners, and pharmaceutical companies, are all not paying attention?

Karrie,

It seems to me that they have categorized "effects" and "reactions" differently to help with confusion...

Side effects are the description one would expect could happen when taking a drug...

Not many people would think there are 2 different types of things that can happen... (one being effects and the other adverse reactions)

I believe the labelling warning had to be changed in 2005 but what didnt change was that the receipient still didnt have to be told because the madating of the doc and the pharmacist didnt happen .. just the stronger lable that went to the drug store..
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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I believe the labelling warning had to be changed in 2005 but what didnt change was that the receipient still didnt have to be told because the madating of the doc and the pharmacist didnt happen .. just the stronger lable that went to the drug store..

where did the stronger label come from, if they're all hiding the effects/reactions?
 

no more drugs

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Jan 21, 2013
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where did the stronger label come from, if they're all hiding the effects/reactions?

Quietly, Health Canada advised the pharmaceutical companies that they had to include suicide and homicide ideation but they didnt say it had to be told to the people... go figure!

The feds said the adverse warnings had to be listed on the drug monograph but there is no obligation for people to get the monograph..
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Quietly, Health Canada advised the pharmaceutical companies that they had to include suicide and homicide ideation but they didnt say it had to be told to the people... go figure!

The feds said the adverse warnings had to be listed on the drug monograph but there is no obligation for people to get the monograph..

And yet, when adverts for pharmaceutical medications play on television, those adverse reactions are listed.

I strongly suspect that the health care field is not as reckless and uncaring about the fact that these reactions can occur, as you'd like to admit.

They recognized a hazard, and addressed it.
 

no more drugs

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Jan 21, 2013
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And yet, when adverts for pharmaceutical medications play on television, those adverse reactions are listed.

I strongly suspect that the health care field is not as reckless and uncaring about the fact that these reactions can occur, as you'd like to admit.

They recognized a hazard, and addressed it.

----------------------------

Hi Karrie,

Its only US ads that have to state the full list... not Canada. The reason is because under the US FDA they have "black box warnings" and the US FDA said that the black box warning had to be public as well as included in each box before handed to the consumer...

In Canada we dont have a "black box warning" per se .. we have "adverse reactions" and the disclosure of ours is geered to the doctors and pharmacists and medical profession... not the people..

I just want to take this oppurtunity to clarify what I have written on the subject... This is my overall opinion in relation to this subject..

I personally dont think that doctors (for the most part) are uncaring... In my opinion the medical profession is money driven. In my journey of researching this subject, I came to see that everything about our pharmaceuticals are all about the almighty dollar.

Thats not to say I dont see a purpose for some meds.... I do believe there are some good ones ...

I have concluded (from my findings) that the pharmaceutical companies drive for profit, affects doctors and pharmacists too. There are many GPs that have no clue about withdrawal or the side effects. They are made to believe that the adverse reactions are so rare that they dont need to consider them. Yet when I looked to see how adverse reactions were reported and tallied and found that there are no mandates for the medical profession to report them.

I learned that the biggest market for drug stores are psychopharmaceuticals. As soon as money and profit enter in an equation it is my opinion that money counts more than anything.

I think the pharmacists are aware that these pills are dangerous and many claim that it is the doctors responsibility to assess a person so the pharmacist does not feel the obligation to give adverse reaction reports to people in fear of scaring the person. Knowong that the drug stores too profit in their dispensarie fees, doesnt sit well with me as again money is a driving factor.

So far in my opinion I have seen that there is nothing in place that allows any type of monitoring on these adverse reactions and how often they may be happening.

The privacy laws prevent the public from seeing things that could be comon trends and the people who could be helping to rule out, or confirm there is a connection dont.. (coroners)

Coroners get the med history and family input and then fill out the forms with a cause and manner which would be for example hanging as the cause and suicide as the manner... they dont eloborate (even if it was their opinion) it is not their place and they will not be starting.

Law enforcement inadvertantly protects these potential trends by sealing their investigation of a given murder suicide and closing their file where there investigation is private ..even from the families..

Law enforcement could tell us so much... In cases where they have access to someones phone email and computers and medical history they could see when the changes started i.e when he lost reality ...etc and when any ideation started .. it may be able to be connected with a drug and does change etc.. but we cant get access.. The only chance would be public inquiries and they would have to be individual and I dont see that happening anytime soon.

The people who were involved are dead and we wont know from them .....

Health Canada doesnt collect data of break downs of different categories of drugs given out each year so stats canada cant give the stat of how many more prescriptions are being written each year.

The few studies that are done are done by doctors where the funding is done through the pharmaceutical companies..

And the media doesnt like to do to much reporting on this issue as not wanting to bite the hands that feed them.. They talk about mental illness but not medication. I have noticed every second commercial Canadian and the US is about how depression is Ok and fixable and encourages people to go and get "treatment" they are targetting the workplace currently. More ads to let us know its ok to take pills.

This is all my opinions and much of the conclusions I have ,made were reading many of the Acts and making phone calls so there arent really links that I have at hand... I will say that anyone reading ones opinion is research individuals can do themself...again this is what I have found for myself... and its why I write on it because if others have the same concerns, they may do their own research too.. I am of the bellief that education is the answer and the more people that are aware of these adverse affects and lack of control and monitoring, they may pass along the word... I dont think there can be any changes until society demands to learn more about these drugs and their effects. I do agree that it is an uphill battle as these drugs are involved with mental illness so it is easy for mental illness to be the scape goat.. What I have seen in many of these cases personally is that the people were described as good non violent people and then after taking drugs they committed heinous acts totally opposite of who they had been their entire life.. A few maybe but there are so many like this I believe it is a valid concern. If anyone disagrees with you disagree what I have concluded its OK. I just have the idea that I can share my opinion here on this forum..
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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I wonder about meds and how they are handled sometimes. here is just one
example. I personally know of someone a family member who has some
serious health issues who was on a product call Prednisone. She had a serious
breathing problem and they prescribed fifty mg instead of five and stayed there
for a week and then they put it back to five.
The problem you can't just reduce this product there are warnings and a normal
person went to a basket case for over two months until someone realized what
was going on.
I used to say oh just blame meds, but there are so many powerful drugs out there
with side effects that can cause any number of reactions.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
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I wonder about meds and how they are handled sometimes. here is just one
example. I personally know of someone a family member who has some
serious health issues who was on a product call Prednisone. She had a serious
breathing problem and they prescribed fifty mg instead of five and stayed there
for a week and then they put it back to five.
The problem you can't just reduce this product there are warnings and a normal
person went to a basket case for over two months until someone realized what
was going on.
I used to say oh just blame meds, but there are so many powerful drugs out there
with side effects that can cause any number of reactions.

really? Prednisone is a steroid. It's very often prescribed in large doses, then small. I've never heard of someone having mental issues because of that. But, like any drug that effects your hormonal system, different people react differently after being taken off medications.

I was downright 'bipolar' when on birth control for example.