Chretien pitching $5 Liberal donations

[CDNBear]

My old man worked as a mechanic on the Arrow. Of course, everything he had told me is also a conspiracy to the apologists.

I'm not an apologist. I just don't believe the hype. I can't and won't say whether or not the cancellation of the project was right or wrong. What I can say, is that the hype, is just that. The claims that the Arrow would still be flying into the 21st century, is BS. Maybe at airs hows, but certainly not in service. For a litany of reasons.

That isn't to say that I'm not immensely proud of our contribution to aerospace technology, stemming from the Arrow project.

It is to say that I'm just not a nationalist, willing to disregard facts for fantasy.

 

[gerryh]

That's really cool Gerry. Did he save anything.

Unfortunately, no. When it came down, it came down fast for his crew. They were let go, escorted out and searched.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

It was a sweet looking plane for its time.

 

[DaSleeper]

Unfortunately, no. When it came down, it came down fast for his crew. They were let go, escorted out and searched.

Same for Joe (The engineer) all paperwork had to be left behind and he had an escort watching, when he picked up his personalstuff from his office.

 

[CDNBear]

Unfortunately, no. When it came down, it came down fast for his crew. They were let go, escorted out and searched.

Same for Joe (The engineer) all paperwork had to be left behind and he had an escort watching, when he picked up his personalstuff from his office.

Not uncommon, even today.

 

[DaSleeper]

Not uncommon, even today.

On my "walk around" last day when I retired my foreman lent me the key to the warehouse...a temporary shopping card....;-)

 

[Tonington]

Not uncommon, even today.

Where I work people are given maybe 5 minutes to leave, and their personal effects in the office are sent by courier! I've seen it happen three times in almost 2 years. I don't see it being very different for any kind of R&D really...

 

[gerryh]

Not uncommon, even today.

Maybe not uncommon for today, but the big thing was both the airframe and the Iroquois engine were way ahead of their time. My Dad did see things crated for shipment that the public was later told were destroyed. The R&D that Canadians paid for was not lost, at least not lost for some, just for Canadians.

 

[CDNBear]

Where I work people are given maybe 5 minutes to leave, and their personal effects in the office are sent by courier! I've seen it happen three times in almost 2 years. I don't see it being very different for any kind of R&D really...

Yep. Or intellectual property clauses in contracts. I can't take what I've invented or created for some companies, and sell it to or build it for others.

Good thing the guys that went to JPL, didn't get that screwing over.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Where I work people are given maybe 5 minutes to leave, and their personal effects in the office are sent by courier! I've seen it happen three times in almost 2 years. I don't see it being very different for any kind of R&D really...

Wow...my job a couple of jobs back....where I was laid off....I took
home 1/2 the office (computers, desks, crates of files, etc...filling
1/2 my two car garage) and still have an active Esso Cardlock fuel
card....and I was laid off from that company a little over two years
ago. My garage is still 1/2 full for their stuff. I'm not worried, and
they don't seem to be either. Great folks!

My job after that, that I haven't been at for over a year now...I still
go and watch most of the UFC fights & Rider games at the Boss's
place, and have access to all his tools and himself when needed.
Again, a great guy!

If I was to leave the place where I currently work, I can't see myself
not having access to the shop and facilities if I needed them,
assuming there was room for me to fit in whatever I was working on
when I needed to work on it. Again, really good people!

 

[DaSleeper]

My old employer isn't like that anymore...:smile:

 

[CDNBear]

Maybe not uncommon for today, but the big thing was both the airframe and the Iroquois engine were way ahead of their time.

For its intended role. Which of course never materialized. The role that did material, marginalized the Arrow completely. Largely due to it's air frame. Great for high altitude supersonic flight. Bad for evading SAM's (at any altitude), trees and the problematic flight characteristic at low level flight.

The usual lament is that it would have seen service well into the latter part of the 20th century. That simply isn't true. It was a single role, interceptor. In a dog fight, it would have failed miserably against planes such as the A-1 Skyraider.

Its sole mission was to intercept bombers. Bombers that weren't going to come, with the development of long range ICBM's.

My Dad did see things crated for shipment that the public was later told were destroyed. The R&D that Canadians paid for was not lost, at least not lost for some, just for Canadians.

No doubt. JPL made all sorts of toys with technology developed in Ontario.

 

[#juan]

My old man worked as a mechanic on the Arrow. Of course, everything he had told me is also a conspiracy to the apologists.

Let me see. We scrapped a twin engined, supersonic, fighter/bomber/intercepter(the Arrow)and we bought a twin engined
supersonic fighter/bomber/intercepter(the Voodoo. Clever guy that Diefenbaker....

 

[Mowich]

The point is that the Liberal Party's and the Old Guard still think the old scare tactic is going to work and it is that line of thinking has got them where they are today.

Agreed, RCS. Dragging out the old shibboleth about the Conservatives doing away with women's rights to abortion shows how bereft the Libs are in new ideas or proposals.

The conspiracy is not that he killed the project,
The conspiracy hangs on the reason for it.

When I started in the mill in '62, another man who started about the same time I did, but as an engineer, had worked on the Avro as top hydrolics engineer.
I got to hear quite a bit about it, straight from a guy who actually work on it.

Maybe worse than the loss of the Arrow was the fact that many of the scientists and engineers involved in the project left Canada for the US to work for NASA.

 

[#juan]

For its intended role. Which of course never materialized. The role that did material, marginalized the Arrow completely. Largely due to it's air frame. Great for high altitude supersonic flight. Bad for evading SAM's (at any altitude), trees and the problematic flight characteristic at low level flight.

The usual lament is that it would have seen service well into the latter part of the 20th century. That simply isn't true. It was a single role, interceptor. In a dog fight, it would have failed miserably against planes such as the A-1 Skyraider.

Its sole mission was to intercept bombers. Bombers that weren't going to come, with the development of long range ICBM's.

No doubt. JPL made all sorts of toys with technology developed in Ontario.

The Arrow was approximately the same size as an F-15, so it's ability to evade SAMs would have been about the same......remember,
the early SAMs were the size of telephone poles.

The Arrow against an A-1 Skyraider? The A-1 was for all intents and purposes a stationary target. The Arrow had lots of hardpoints for
other weaponry and probably the biggest airborne radar around. The A-1 would be blown out of the sky before it saw the Arrow.

It's funny. The B-52 is still flying as well as it's Soviet counterpart. Hell, when I was in the airforce we regularly chased Russian Bears
back accross their borders.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

It's funny. The B-52 is still flying as well as it's Soviet counterpart. Hell, when I was in the airforce we regularly chased Russian Bears
back accross their borders.

Let's not forget the Herc either which has even evolved into this bad boy of the air.

 

[#juan]

Let's not forget the Herc either which has even evolved into this bad boy of the air.

All that fire power and it can still fly at close to 400 mph. Dangerous!

Let's not forget the Herc either which has even evolved into this bad boy of the air.

All that fire power and it can still fly at close to 400 mph. Dangerous! How long has the Herc been flying now?
I'm guessing about forty years.

 

[CDNBear]

Let me see. We scrapped a twin engined, supersonic, fighter/bomber/intercepter(the Arrow)and we bought a twin engined
supersonic fighter/bomber/intercepter(the Voodoo. Clever guy that Diefenbaker....

The Arrow wasn't a fighter. It couldn't win a dog fight with a real dog. It handled like a pig at low altitude, subsonic. Any adversary would simply have to bring the fight down to the deck, and the Arrow was done.

The Arrow was a purpose built interceptor, full stop. Not a multi-role platform.

The Arrow was approximately the same size as an F-15, so it's ability to evade SAMs would have been about the same......remember, the early SAMs were the size of telephone poles.

And didn't have the agility the F 15 had in a multi role capacity.

The Arrow against an A-1 Skyraider? The A-1 was for all intents and purposes a stationary target. The Arrow had lots of hardpoints for
other weaponry and probably the biggest airborne radar around. The A-1 would be blown out of the sky before it saw the Arrow.

Again. The Arrow wasn't a fighter. It couldn't win a dog fight with a real dog. It handled like a pig at low altitude, subsonic. Any adversary would simply have to bring the fight down to the deck, and the Arrow was done.

They hoped to use the Falcon GAR 2, it never came to be. The Velvet Glove was unstable at supersonic speeds.

What was left after that?

It's funny. The B-52 is still flying as well as it's Soviet counterpart. Hell, when I was in the airforce we regularly chased Russian Bears back accross their borders.

Your point? Any of those come in the supersonic variety that was expected to materialize? No. But SAM's did. Thus killing the necessity for the sole purpose interceptor Arrow, altogether.

 

[#juan]

The Arrow wasn't a fighter. It couldn't win a dog fight with a real dog. It handled like a pig at low altitude, subsonic. Any adversary would simply have to bring the fight down to the deck, and the Arrow was done.

The Arrow was a purpose built interceptor, full stop. Not a multi-role platform.

And didn't have the agility the F 15 had in a multi role capacity.
Again. The Arrow wasn't a fighter. It couldn't win a dog fight with a real dog. It handled like a pig at low altitude, subsonic. Any adversary would simply have to bring the fight down to the deck, and the Arrow was done.

They hoped to use the Falcon GAR 2, it never came to be. The Velvet Glove was unstable at supersonic speeds.

What was left after that?

Your point? Any of those come in the supersonic variety that was expected to materialize? No. But SAM's did. Thus killing the necessity for the sole purpose interceptor Arrow, altogether.

Bear, you are talkinf through you hat. The F-15 was brought out ten years after the Arrow. The F-15 designers obviously learned a lot from the Arrow. If the Arrow had that ten years as developement time, it is hard to say how much better than the eagle it would have been.
Jan Zurakowski never mentioned any of the handling problems you talk about.

 

[CDNBear]

Bear, you are talkinf through you hat. The F-15 was brought out ten years after the Arrow. The F-15 designers obviously learned a lot from the Arrow. If the Arrow had that ten years as developement time, it is hard to say how much better than the eagle it would have been.

That's not my hat, or me talking. If you don't think comparing the F 15 to the Arrow, was wise, than why did you do just that?

The Arrow was approximately the same size as an F-15, so it's ability to evade SAMs would have been about the same......remember, the early SAMs were the size of telephone poles.

Jan Zurakowski never mentioned any of the handling problems you talk about.

That's because he never tried to dog fight at low alt and subsonic.

All the tests were aimed at pushing alt envelopes and speed. Because that was going to be the MOS for its sole purpose role. The whole industry at the time, were trying to go up and fast.