Challenge Vanni

Vanni Fucci

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Dec 26, 2004
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Jay said:
Vanni Fucci said:
My wife was pissed at me for a bit, but she got over it...I just hope she doesn't try that trick again anytime soon... :wink:

I don't get it....and it is none of my business anyways, but if it would make your wife happy why wouldn't you just do it anyways.

No you don't...no it's not, but I offered to divulge this information...and I have other ways of making my wife happy... :wink:

...ways that do not include betraying my daughter to those who would stifle her capacity for free thought with their mind-numbing Christ cult dogma...
 

Jovey

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Feb 21, 2005
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Extrafire (and for others interested)

The tv series "The Elegant Universe" is available for viewing online at the Nova website.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

I also read his book but skipped through parts of it that managed to bore/confuse me. This series was presented in a manner that proved interesting and easier to understand. You need quicktime or realplayer to view it and the good thing is that it's divided up into sections if your viewing time is limited or if only certain sections interest you.

Jovey
 

Dexter Sinister

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Very interesting paper Vanni, good link. I think, though, that I'd strenuously disagree with one of its opening premises, that science has conceded the origin question to the theists. My reading of the literature generally indicates science has conceded nothing of the sort, though there are certainly individual scientists who've used the word God in certain metaphorical ways that theists fasten on as evidence of science's support for their position.

Science simply doesn't consider a Creator as a useful hypothesis. It provides no clearer understanding, makes no predictions, generates no testable hypotheses, and offers no new insights. It cuts off all of those things by appearing to be the ultimate answer to everything we don’t understand. That is in no way a useful explanation of anything, it reduces it all to magic, incoherence, and incomprehensibility. Science is perfectly comfortable saying, "We don't understand it, but we're working on it." The theist view, as exemplified by Extrafire's remarks here and elsewhere on things like cell biology and blood clotting, seems to me to be, "We don't understand it, so God must have done it," which explains nothing.
 

Jay

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Jan 7, 2005
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Vanni Fucci said:
Jay said:
I actually had a post to further this conversation, where I used a quote from the bible to support my idea and I thought it was very relevant, but then I got thinking, Vanni doesn't give a shit...so I deleted it.

If I didn't give a shit, Jay, do you really think I would bother with all of this?

I think you care to drive ppl from Christ...

I doubt you care about my ramblings about the bible though.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Dexter Sinister said:
Very interesting paper Vanni, good link. I think, though, that I'd strenuously disagree with one of its opening premises, that science has conceded the origin question to the theists.

I had a problem with that too, Dex, but I think what Mr. Smith was alluding to was the philosophical aspects of cosmology, and even then, the theists arrived at their conclusions through false assumptions.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Jay said:
I think you care to drive ppl from Christ...

No, that too is an erroneous assumption of my intent, Jay. I would defend your right to believe what you want, but religion should be a personal experience, and should be practiced responsibly. Once those beliefs, or the resultant effects, leave the confines of your home or church, then they became fair game.

By the same token, I could say that your church cares to drive people to Christ, and away from free thought, and in the end, at least I'm being honest with you.


Jay said:
I doubt you care about my ramblings about the bible though.

No, I do not, but neither do I care about the ramblings of the Torah, Quran, or the Rig Veda, or anything purporting to be divinely inspired...none of those scriptures should hold any dominion over our hearts and minds. I see them as the greatest stumbling block to true societal progress, and the confluence of our species.
 

Extrafire

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Hi Vanni, sorry to have taken so long to answer your post. There've been a lot of demands on my time lately. (I do have a life) I see the rest of you have been busy during my absence.

Your theory of mulitple universes doesn't reguire a creator?

Well, let’s see. Until the Big Bang theory came along, conventional wisdom (in the science community) held that the universe was infinite. (They should have known better, there was plenty of evidence that indicated it was not, but they chose to ignore it). When the Big Bang came along the main thrust was to try to disprove it, and they felt confident that they would soon enough. The reason they wanted it disproved was expressed by Sir Arthur Eddington who said, “We must give evolution time to get started.” He well recognized that 13.7 billion years was insufficient time for that, the alternative being that absolute no-no, creation. As test after test verified the big bang, there were increasing efforts to get around it, or again in the words of Eddington, “find a loophole” by proposing such things as steady state theory, a rebounding universe, cyclic universe, quantum fluctuations and, chaotic inflation theory (the latest, and only multi-universes theory that has any chance of credibility, however slight).

The whole idea of multiple universes was first hypothesized as a solution to a quantum measurement problem in physics, but more recently it has become popular as a metaphysical escape hatch from the theistic implications of the incredible fine tuning of our universe, as some scientists have openly admitted. The idea is usually presented as purely scientific but goes well beyond what science can honestly endorse.

But let’s suppose this highly speculative idea was possible. I’ll use a simple example to illustrate the problems with it. For Christmas I bought my wife a bread making machine. For it to generate bread, we first need the well designed machine, with the right circuitry, heating element, timer etc. Then we need to put in all the right ingredients in the right proportions in the right order in order to get the bread we want. Bread is far less complex than the universe but it requires a lot of specific conditions to make. Otherwise you get something, but not an edible loaf of bread. Likewise, any mechanism that could produce functioning universes would require the right structure, the right mechanism, and the right ingredients to work, and in spite of coming out of nothing, there still is a requirement for input.

First it would require a mechanism to supply the energy required for the bubble universes (an inflaton field that acts as a reservoir of unlimited energy). Second, a mechanism to form the bubbles (general relativity). Third, a mechanism to convert the energy of the inflaton field to normal mass/energy, and fourth, a way to vary the constants of physics so that by random chance it could produce some universes that have the right fine tuning to sustain life (superstring theory). And it would have to make trillions of trillions of uncountable trillions of universes just to get one component such as the cosmological constant to have the right value in order to produce a life sustaining universe. And that’s just one of a whole host of incomprehensibly fine tuned components that are required. For example, according to Roger Penrose, the “original phase-space volume” required fine tuning to an accuracy of one part in 10 billion multiplied by itself 123 times, a number so huge that to write it would require more zeros than the number of elementary particles in the whole universe. Or how about the expansion rate of the universe, tuned to one part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion. The cosmological constant is tuned to at least 1 part in a hundred million billion billion billion billion billion. There are more than 30 such parameters that need such precise calibration in order to produce a life sustaining universe. When all of them are combined the possibility, as Hawking said, vanishes.

Which means, if it is true, a creator is required.

But, you’ll say, as long as there is a possibility even in a number that big, it could happen without a creator. Talk about faith! If I were to wager with you that I could flip a coin and get heads 50 times in a row, and then was able to do it, you would insist that the game was rigged. Yet that’s possible to do. In fact the odds are 1 chance in a million billion, but there’s no way you would believe it wasn’t rigged. Yet, with odds so small the number can’t even be written within the confines of the universe, you think it hasn’t been rigged. Now THAT is faith.
 

Extrafire

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Doesn't really answer the question I posed does it? You claimed your god would forgive all sins.Now you claim he would be stupid to do so. All I did was present some sins to prove that he is not all loving. As you claim.

Either god I all loving or he is not. A god would have the power to prevent the sin from happening...if he truly loved the transgressor...freewill or not. He would not allow his worshipper to commit a sin that would keep him in hell for eternity. I love you, but I never want to see you again...is not love.

You're twisting my words around. I said there are no sins that are unforgivable. But to forgive everything whether there was repentance or not would be stupid. In fact, in a situation like that, there would be no such thing as sin. Power to prevent the sin from happening does not imply using that power. And there is no free will when you are not free to do as you choose. A sin committed by a worshiper would likely not keep him in hell. One committed by a non worshiper might.
 

Extrafire

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Extrafire wrote:
And by the way, you also formed your conclusion first.


No, that's wrong. You can have no idea what turmoil our exchanges on these forums has caused me.

Actually I thought you were referring to my participation on this forum. In that case, we both formed our conclusions long before coming here.

My parents weren't stupid either, and they believed much as you do, and that always gives me pause. But the fact remains, I do not and at least for the moment cannot believe as you do, so I seek other explanations.

Nice to know where you're coming from. You at least had the ability to make an informed choice, something a lot of people don't get to do. I was also raised in a theistic home and not having the advantage of an advaced education in either direction made my choice for theism, although I had a lot of questions. The only opponents I heard to naturalism were the fundmentalists, and I knew they were out to lunch. I heard some good philisophical arguments for theism, but I was in my 40's before I was even aware of the scientific arguments against naturalism & for theism. (I know, I know, lots of you will say there are no scientific arguments.)

But despite our manifest and fundamental differences, I wish you well and I want to keep talking with you.

Why thank you. But due to my wife's disaproval and my own knowledge that I don't really have enough time to devote to forums, I may not be here much longer, as I indicated in the "Introduce Yourself" thread when I arrived. I'm sure it will be fun while it lasts.
 

zenfisher

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Extrafire...people have been making bread for centuries without a bread machine. They have been making bread without means to measure exact temperature. So you can make bread without a well designed machine.

I didn't twist your words they were direct quotes placed in the order you posted. It does not change the fact that if your god cannot forgive every sin...he is not all loving. If he sees someone about to sin and does not try to rectify it.... he is not all loving,free will or not. If he doesn't know they are about to sin...then he is not all knowing.If he is not all knowing how could he possibly design a universe.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Extrafire said:
....I may not be here much longer

I'm sorry to hear that. We obviously disagree profoundly on some things and haven't always been polite to each other, but that's okay; if we agreed on everything and had no passion about it, what would we have to talk about? That's what these forums are for. And since you referred to your wife as SWMBO, I presume you're a fan of that long-suffering but brilliant slob, Horace Rumpole, so we have at least one thing in common that's also worth talking about.

Stay as long as you can, and try to convince She Who Must Be Obeyed that this is a good place, and worth your time. Lots of people would agree. But what are 1500 contrary opinions against SWMBO's? :wink:
 

Twila

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Mar 26, 2003
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It does not change the fact that if your god cannot forgive every sin...he is not all loving.
I'm just going to jump in here and see if I can explain this.
God is forgiving. But how can he forgive you if you can't forgive yourself?
If he sees someone about to sin and does not try to rectify it.... he is not all loving,free will or not.
If God were to step in it would remove free will. Life is work. You can not go through life without making mistakes and learning from them. If God were to step in we'd never learn from our mistakes. It IS free will that prevents him from steping in and fixing it all for us. How can we strive to be better then we are if we are never allowed to do things?
What you are describing (that God lets people suffer) is not a god, or even THE god but a dictator.

If this were true then George W. would have to make up plans to overthrow him. What better power could there then to not only be president but GOD? (k, I'm being silly.)



Zen, please don't take the above statements about free will as an arguement from me or me attempting to sway you. I'm not. I'm attempting to explain free will and why God can't step in, in my limited way.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Extrafire said:
And it would have to make trillions of trillions of uncountable trillions of universes just to get one component such as the cosmological constant to have the right value in order to produce a life sustaining universe.

Hey Ex, glad to see you were able to reply, and I hope you're able to respond to this as well...

What evidence do you have that this has not already taken place? Further to that, what reason would a creator have for creating planets and galaxies that do not support life?


Extrafire said:
But, you’ll say, as long as there is a possibility even in a number that big, it could happen without a creator. Talk about faith! If I were to wager with you that I could flip a coin and get heads 50 times in a row, and then was able to do it, you would insist that the game was rigged. Yet that’s possible to do. In fact the odds are 1 chance in a million billion, but there’s no way you would believe it wasn’t rigged. Yet, with odds so small the number can’t even be written within the confines of the universe, you think it hasn’t been rigged. Now THAT is faith.

No, that's not faith, it's science and mathamatical probability, and the ability to not get sucked into the vacuous expanse of faith...
 

Vanni Fucci

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Re: RE: Challenge Vanni

Twila said:
If God were to step in it would remove free will.

Free will exists far more without a god than with.

In the bible, we see countless examples of God suppressing or eliminating free will.

What free will did Adam and Eve have when the serpent, also a creation of God, is sent to tempt them. Before that temptation, and their eating of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they had no knowledge of good and evil, remember.

What free will did everyone but Noah's family have when God drowned them in the great deluge...are we to believe that Noah was the only righteous person left on earth? That seems a bit of a stretch...

What free will did the Egyptians, who, if we are to believe the bible, are also creations of God, have when he sent the angel of death to kill the first born of everything in Egypt?

For that matter, what free will did Pharoah have when God admittedly hardened his heart against Moses' plea to set his people free?

...and these from just the first two books of the bible. Throughout the bible are examples of God eliminating free will, and then causing terrible things to happen when they "choose" how God set them up to "choose" in the first place...

Faith itself is a form of suppression of free will, in that one must remain faithful, or suffer eternal damnation.

How free can ones will be if absolute and unconditional adherence to the will of another is required for a spurious post-mortem reward...
 

Twila

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I'm not an expert. I'm barely an amateur.

but I do believe you are mistaking the meaning of free will. People have free will to do as they please within God's plans.
If God decides to do away with people that has nothing to do with free will. Death is death. Nobody escapes it. It's a part of living. It has nothing to do with free will.

Faith itself is a form of suppression of free will, in that one must remain faithful, or suffer eternal damnation.

How free can ones will be if absolute and unconditional adherence to the will of another is required for a spurious post-mortem reward...

This is the mess that man has made for himself. I don't believe that faith is a suppression of free will. I can choose to be a good person or a not good person. I've made a decision. And will suffer the consequences or reap the benefits of it.

I also don't believe that God is properly represented by current religions. Man corrupts it to suit his own purposes. This is best represented in our treatment of prositutes. War. Homelessness. Animal/Child/Senior abuse.
 

Aizlynne

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The one thing that spirituality does is help create peace in society. The belief that ones actions create possible negative consequences "down the road" allows a society to live in relative harmony. I think some folks would also refer to this as "having a conscious".

Having a conscious means that you won't sexually fornicate, assault and murder young children for example..... or you won't bash your parents skulls in because they said no to you..... I think you get my drift.

So while you can espouse the virtues of "free will" just remember that is also applies to the sickos in society who one day may just prey upon you or a member of your family. Will you feel the same about "free will" then?

So in my opinion spirituality does play a very important role in that it keeps the majority of people living together with a modicum of respect for each other - even those with differences of opinion.
 

Reverend Blair

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Neither spirituality not morality imply religiousity though. Those things are quite possible without a belief in god.

I don't believe in any gods, but I am as moral as most people and do several things that people would consider spiritual, such as enjoying nature or being moved by a song or piece of writing.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Re: RE: Challenge Vanni

Twila said:
but I do believe you are mistaking the meaning of free will. People have free will to do as they please within God's plans.

Hmmm...so even though God would take away peoples' ability to choose, that is still considered free will?

Twila said:
Death is death. Nobody escapes it. It's a part of living. It has nothing to do with free will.

No, death is death when someone falls off a cliff, or is eaten by lions or dies of some wasting disease...then death is death...but when the supposed creator of the universe and man has caused these things to occur, then there a conscious and deliberate denial of free will...and it's just a deity throwing a tantrum and killing millions for nothing...

Vanni Fucci said:
Faith itself is a form of suppression of free will, in that one must remain faithful, or suffer eternal damnation.

How free can ones will be if absolute and unconditional adherence to the will of another is required for a spurious post-mortem reward...

This is the mess that man has made for himself. I don't believe that faith is a suppression of free will. I can choose to be a good person or a not good person. I've made a decision. And will suffer the consequences or reap the benefits of it.

So, even though, if I were to live my life never breaking a single commandment, but not offering my servitude to any God or Jesus, I would still be consigned to hellfire, according to the words of Jesus and what's written in the bible...

2 Thessalonians 2:11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is a blatant denial of free will by your so called creator...