Challenge Vanni
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Twila I understand freewill. I welcome your thoughts. Believe me I cannot be swayed in my stance.
He will offer forgiveness for those that cause abominable harm to others just for kicks. ( ie Clifford Olson, the Green River killer,et al) If on their deathbed they repent their sins...god will welcome them into heaven.
Yet a Father who goes out and robs a bank to feed his starving family and does not regret nor does he repent is cast into the fiery pit.
Forgiving oneself isn't really the element here. If he forgives the serial killers and not the Father feeding his kids...He is not all loving. As for the Father, manna has fallen from heaven before. At least that is what we were told.
As for free will...if god truly has all this power. Do you think it might be possible that he could interfere and still leave the illusion of free will within us. Free will isn't really the issue. Its being all powerful, all seeing and all loving that breaks apart the argument.It breaks down like this:
If god can prevent evil and doesn't...he isn't all loving.
If god intends to prevent evil, but cannot, then he isn't all powerful.
If god both intends to prevent evil and is capable of doing so, then how can evil exist?
As to the free will argument...
If god is omniscient, He must know before hand exactly what a person will do in a given situation.In that case, a person, is not in fact free to do the alternative to what god knows he or she will do,and free will must be an illusion. To take this one step further, if one chooses to commit a sin, how can it be said one sinned freely?
(quoted from... The New York Public Library desk reference.)
He will offer forgiveness for those that cause abominable harm to others just for kicks. ( ie Clifford Olson, the Green River killer,et al) If on their deathbed they repent their sins...god will welcome them into heaven.
Yet a Father who goes out and robs a bank to feed his starving family and does not regret nor does he repent is cast into the fiery pit.
Forgiving oneself isn't really the element here. If he forgives the serial killers and not the Father feeding his kids...He is not all loving. As for the Father, manna has fallen from heaven before. At least that is what we were told.
As for free will...if god truly has all this power. Do you think it might be possible that he could interfere and still leave the illusion of free will within us. Free will isn't really the issue. Its being all powerful, all seeing and all loving that breaks apart the argument.It breaks down like this:
If god can prevent evil and doesn't...he isn't all loving.
If god intends to prevent evil, but cannot, then he isn't all powerful.
If god both intends to prevent evil and is capable of doing so, then how can evil exist?
As to the free will argument...
If god is omniscient, He must know before hand exactly what a person will do in a given situation.In that case, a person, is not in fact free to do the alternative to what god knows he or she will do,and free will must be an illusion. To take this one step further, if one chooses to commit a sin, how can it be said one sinned freely?
(quoted from... The New York Public Library desk reference.)
Re: RE: Challenge Vanni
Quite right...and as all things are purportedly God's creation, the so too must be sin and evil...
...and if we are to assume that our creator has created these things also, then as Zen says, this being has not the capacity for love, only creation of both good and evil...
...of course this is arguing from a position that I don't embrace, and metaphysical reasoning has never answer any real questions...
zenfisher said:
Quite right...and as all things are purportedly God's creation, the so too must be sin and evil...
...and if we are to assume that our creator has created these things also, then as Zen says, this being has not the capacity for love, only creation of both good and evil...
...of course this is arguing from a position that I don't embrace, and metaphysical reasoning has never answer any real questions...
Vanni Fucci said:
I actually agree that pedofilia is in fact a neurological disorder, and one that cannot be cured. But the majority of sexual offenders are not in fact pedofiles. Power is what drives them - that feeling of wanting to be superior.
So in that sense, having the ability to define right from wrong and treating others as you want to be treated stem from, in fact, spiritual based teachings (10 commandments kinda thing) and help keep society conforming to peace and harmony to some extent.
Now it certainly isn't the cure-all for everything and most of the religions around are just pathetic excuses to socially re-engineer good people at heart. But I think inherently most people believe in a God type being. My God certainly doesn't judge or condemn, but instead tries to teach his messages through good people, just like you. I don't really blame you for being cynical in your approach to religion.... I was for years (Catholic - but not practicing). Most of us struggle you can be sure of that. But time and age bring you additional wisdom and help you fetter out the crap from the good.
Aizlynne said:
Agreed...
Aizlynne said:
I don't agree with this...one must only look to the problem with the pedophile priests to see the flaw in that logic...also, I do not follow the ten commandments, and have no use for religion, yet I am not a deviant, nor have I murdered anyone...my morality is my own, and has nothing to do with what's written in the bible.
Aizlynne said:
If you are referring to the God of Judeo-Christian myths, then I have to say you are wrong. I'm not going to go into the details, because it's all written there for you to read in your bible, and you seem like a nice enough person, and I don't want to piss you off.
I would like to say though that you cannot choose what your God is and is not. If you are to believe in your God at all, you must believe that he created you. If you believe that he created you, then how is it that you are able to define his characteristics? All that is known of your God is what is written in the bible...there is no other source, just as the only source for Allah is in the Quran.
If the descriptions of the moods and actions of your God that is found written in the bible is false, then the whole scheme falls apart at the seams...
...because if God did not do this or that, then the bible is just a fictitious story, and if it's just a story, then how could God exist, and if God does not exist then Jesus does not exist...and if Jesus does not exist, then Christianity has been playing billions upon billions as suckers for almost 2000 years...incidentally, that is what I believe, and the documentary, and archaelogical evidence supports my belief more than it does yours.
Yeah... you know I struggled for a long time with the same ideology you have.
I actually don't read the Bible because I too believe many parts of it to be fiction.
So what do you think drives most people to live civil, moral lives? If there is no fear for consequences and everyone can do as they please, they why doesn't everyone just steal, murder and not care for one another?
I would be most interested in hearing your thoughts.
I actually don't read the Bible because I too believe many parts of it to be fiction.
So what do you think drives most people to live civil, moral lives? If there is no fear for consequences and everyone can do as they please, they why doesn't everyone just steal, murder and not care for one another?
I would be most interested in hearing your thoughts.
Vanni,
This shows your ignorance about the Christian belief. Take a look at the end of the gospel of John and see what it says about the life of Christ and whether the Bible contains all of the knowledge regarding God.
We've already had many debates about the bible and it seems you seem to be stuck in "Literal" mode. As a bible scholar once said, "You can either take the bible literally or you can take it seriously."
I realize that you like the literal and fundamentalist religions because they are easy to attack because the of the contradictions in the bible. But if you want to "run-down" religion get off the bible because most faiths that use it don't take it literally.
This shows your ignorance about the Christian belief. Take a look at the end of the gospel of John and see what it says about the life of Christ and whether the Bible contains all of the knowledge regarding God.
We've already had many debates about the bible and it seems you seem to be stuck in "Literal" mode. As a bible scholar once said, "You can either take the bible literally or you can take it seriously."
I realize that you like the literal and fundamentalist religions because they are easy to attack because the of the contradictions in the bible. But if you want to "run-down" religion get off the bible because most faiths that use it don't take it literally.
Hi Tibear:
I couldn't agree with you more. But give Vanni a break because he is struggling with his spirtuality as many of us have. I have had many doubts and have run the gamit of being spiritual and not. I think actually Vanni would believe in God if there wasn't so much dicotomy in the various religions and the sham and mockery some of them make out of it (Tammy Faye Baker, Falwell, some Catholic priests just to name a few).
But I have come to the understanding that while the writings and teachings in bibles can vary from one sect to another, they all share a common theme which is the existence of God and the joy of everlasting life.
I couldn't agree with you more. But give Vanni a break because he is struggling with his spirtuality as many of us have. I have had many doubts and have run the gamit of being spiritual and not. I think actually Vanni would believe in God if there wasn't so much dicotomy in the various religions and the sham and mockery some of them make out of it (Tammy Faye Baker, Falwell, some Catholic priests just to name a few).
But I have come to the understanding that while the writings and teachings in bibles can vary from one sect to another, they all share a common theme which is the existence of God and the joy of everlasting life.
Re: RE: Challenge Vanni
If we take a look at morality from a sociological perspective, many cultures that were not influenced by Christianity, held some of what the Christians like to refer to as "Christian values". Christianity may have developed out of some people's desire to see those values standardized.
As a society develops, they develop their own code of morality and social mores. This has nothing to do with religion, although it is religion that normally lays claim to that morality.
Morality and ethics are no more a construct of religion than are kindness and charity.
Just as morality is not derived from religion, neither can religion guide one to morality. Too many religious people have committed attrocious acts of immorality in spite of, or because of their religion.
There is always a fear of consequence...fear of ostracization would be one compelling motive to adhere to ones social conventions.
Aizlynne said:
If we take a look at morality from a sociological perspective, many cultures that were not influenced by Christianity, held some of what the Christians like to refer to as "Christian values". Christianity may have developed out of some people's desire to see those values standardized.
As a society develops, they develop their own code of morality and social mores. This has nothing to do with religion, although it is religion that normally lays claim to that morality.
Morality and ethics are no more a construct of religion than are kindness and charity.
Just as morality is not derived from religion, neither can religion guide one to morality. Too many religious people have committed attrocious acts of immorality in spite of, or because of their religion.
There is always a fear of consequence...fear of ostracization would be one compelling motive to adhere to ones social conventions.
Re: RE: Challenge Vanni
Your reading far too much into my words it seems...:wink:
I have no struggle with spirituality, as I too have moments of spirituality that has nothing to do with religion or your God.
Show me scientific evidence of the existence of God and everlasting life and we can end this debate. Until such time, I will be firmly entrenched in the there-is-no-god camp.
Aizlynne said:
Your reading far too much into my words it seems...:wink:
I have no struggle with spirituality, as I too have moments of spirituality that has nothing to do with religion or your God.
Aizlynne said:
Show me scientific evidence of the existence of God and everlasting life and we can end this debate. Until such time, I will be firmly entrenched in the there-is-no-god camp.
tibear said:
Yep, everyone should take that tripe with a grain of salt...
However, as I've shown you, your own church believes that contained within those pages is the divine word of God...
So all you've shown is that your beliefs are inconsistent with the conventions of your church...but that's ok, because Christians tend to be a fickle bunch...believing this for awhile, until it's disproven by science, then they believe that...
What's the matter with you...the DIVINE WORD OF GOD not good enough for you... :lol:
Vanni,
Geesh, don't you read what I post! :x
Your right that the Church does teach that the Bible IS the word of God but this DOESN't mean that it is 100% literally true.
You seemed much to concerned about the "How" of the bible and not the "Why". Most religions that read the bible read the bible to see the stories of man's interaction with God and from these stories we try to see the teaching behind it.
Do we have to believe every story in the bible?? No. Does my religion say that we have to believe every story in the bible? No. Does my religion say that we aren't to believe the stories in the bible? No.
You seem to be much too black and white. Perhaps introduce some colour into your life, it is a much more enjoyable experience!!
As I said earlier, your stuck in the logical arguement with regards to faith. Just like you can't prove faith through logic, you can't disprove it either.
Most of your arguements can be described in the following analogy:
A parent has a child and loves the child very much. Claims that they will love the child regardless of what they do. When the child tries to ride their bike they fall down and hurt themselves. You then accuse the parent of not loving the child because if they did they would have prevented the child from hurting themselves. When the child breaks a window while playing baseball, the parent makes the child pay for the window because they knew better. You then accuse the parent of not being forgiving because they should forgive everything the child does.
I'm sorry but love doesn't work that way. It's obvious you're not a parent because you might have an easier time understanding love and how it works between a parent and child.
My two cents worth....
Geesh, don't you read what I post! :x
Your right that the Church does teach that the Bible IS the word of God but this DOESN't mean that it is 100% literally true.
You seemed much to concerned about the "How" of the bible and not the "Why". Most religions that read the bible read the bible to see the stories of man's interaction with God and from these stories we try to see the teaching behind it.
Do we have to believe every story in the bible?? No. Does my religion say that we have to believe every story in the bible? No. Does my religion say that we aren't to believe the stories in the bible? No.
You seem to be much too black and white. Perhaps introduce some colour into your life, it is a much more enjoyable experience!!
As I said earlier, your stuck in the logical arguement with regards to faith. Just like you can't prove faith through logic, you can't disprove it either.
Most of your arguements can be described in the following analogy:
A parent has a child and loves the child very much. Claims that they will love the child regardless of what they do. When the child tries to ride their bike they fall down and hurt themselves. You then accuse the parent of not loving the child because if they did they would have prevented the child from hurting themselves. When the child breaks a window while playing baseball, the parent makes the child pay for the window because they knew better. You then accuse the parent of not being forgiving because they should forgive everything the child does.
I'm sorry but love doesn't work that way. It's obvious you're not a parent because you might have an easier time understanding love and how it works between a parent and child.
My two cents worth....
tibear said:
I've read everything you've posted on this topic...
tibear said:
The phrase "the bible is the word of God" means that the words in the bible were literally dictated by your god, as opposed to the phrase "divinely inspired, or inspired by God", which would mean that the messages were delivered in some medium, to be put into words by the author.
By that token, when the bible says that God annihilated this civilization or that, then your church contends that that event actually took place. To say otherwise, would mean that your church considers the words in the bible, and thus the words of your God to be untruths.\
Given what your church maintains, only two possibilities can exist:
1. Your God has lied to the authors of the bible.
OR
2. The bible does not contain the word of God.
tibear said:
I don't concern myself too much with this at all. I know the how and the why:
HOW -- Christianity evolved from Judaism, and a smattering of Cynical school of philosophy.
WHY -- To be used as a means of controlling the masses.
tibear said:
I'm not trying to prove anything here. You made a statement that your church does not necessarily believe everything written in teh bible, and I'm saying that's false.
tibear said:
If you'd read my posts, you'd know that I have 5 children...
tibear said:
I'll give you a half farthing for the lot of it...
Vanni. You may be right. I'm trying to figure out whether I'm attempting to convince you or myself about free will.
as I stated earlier I'm barely an amateur. So I'm going to have to back out of this debate simply because I don't know enough and because I'm unclear on my motives........I hate being unclear.
as I stated earlier I'm barely an amateur. So I'm going to have to back out of this debate simply because I don't know enough and because I'm unclear on my motives........I hate being unclear.
Since we agree that you do in fact have spirituality, could you tell me where you feel your spirituality, whatever sparse moments you have, comes from? Do you think it is brought about by social re-engineering manufactured by your parents or peers?
Since you are scientifically nature based, I can see how you would interpret many things as black and white. Most of my friends and peers that are scientifically based think in linear thought patterns as well.
Do you encourage or discourage your children from searching for spiritual roots even if you don't believe in God? Would you believe in God if proof were given? If so, what type of God do you think they would be?
Since you are scientifically nature based, I can see how you would interpret many things as black and white. Most of my friends and peers that are scientifically based think in linear thought patterns as well.
Do you encourage or discourage your children from searching for spiritual roots even if you don't believe in God? Would you believe in God if proof were given? If so, what type of God do you think they would be?
Re: RE: Challenge Vanni
That you are able to question your motives, Twila, suggests to me that your free will is indeed well, and intact.
...and I wish you well in finding the answers you seek.
8)
Twila said:
That you are able to question your motives, Twila, suggests to me that your free will is indeed well, and intact.
...and I wish you well in finding the answers you seek.
8)
Aizlynne said:
My sprirituality comes from guiding my children to respect themselves, others, and their environment. It comes from teaching them how to put a worm on a hook, and it comes from sitting with them as the last flickering flames of the bonfire die down to embers. It comes from being aware with all of my senses of the nature around me and helping my children tune in to their surroundings. It comes from watching the sun set in the reflection of the lake, and I even find comfort in the buzz of the mosquitoes as the sun finally disappears.
Aizlynne said:
Actually, this is what I struggle with, as I am not predisposed to think linearly, and I find it a real chore to do so...at the same time, I know it to be the truth, so how could I do otherwise.
Aizlynne said:
My two stepchildren are in a Christian school. My two children from a previous marriage used to go to church, and I never had a problem with it. I went to church as a child too.
If evidence could be presented that was irrefutable according to scientific method, then just as I believe that gravity exists, so too would God exist for me. As I see it though, science is outgrowing God, and there may never be a reconciliation.
My god, were I ever to invent one, would have the common courtesy to come down off his lofty perch and share a drink with me every year on my birthday... :wink:
My, how quickly we get off topic. Much of this belongs on Vanni's Challenge.
Zen,
True, but you have to have intelligence. I was using the machine as an annalogy. My wife has made bread without a recipe, but the machine is a mechanism that requires a lot more precision and if things are off, you don't get the product you want. If the components weren’t right, the bread would also be off. If a “mechanism” for producing universes were off, you wouldn’t get our universe, since it must be so precise.
Presuming my God, He can forgive every sin. Your concept of all loving makes no sense. And not being confined to our time dimension, he does know who sins in advance. But this segment is off topic and we’re going round in circles, so I won’t respond to it any more.
Zen,
True, but you have to have intelligence. I was using the machine as an annalogy. My wife has made bread without a recipe, but the machine is a mechanism that requires a lot more precision and if things are off, you don't get the product you want. If the components weren’t right, the bread would also be off. If a “mechanism” for producing universes were off, you wouldn’t get our universe, since it must be so precise.
Presuming my God, He can forgive every sin. Your concept of all loving makes no sense. And not being confined to our time dimension, he does know who sins in advance. But this segment is off topic and we’re going round in circles, so I won’t respond to it any more.
Faith is applicable to more than just religious belief. When flying as a passenger in a 737 you have faith that the pilot is properly qualified. That faith is based on a high probability, based on knowledge, that he/she could not be piloting an aircraft without the necessary qualifications. If you believed that I could flip a coin and get heads 50 times in a row it would have to be based on more than mathematical probablility. Such as a 2 headed coin. There's no way you or anyone else would believe that I could do it based purely on probability, so how could you believe in a probability so small that, in Hawking's words, it vanishes?