If I can't see who the person is, ally or enemy, if he fires on me I will return fire on him.
Only if someone fires on me first, Gunslinger.
Only if someone fires on me first, Gunslinger.
Canadians Fired On In Iraq
- Thread starter Curiosity
- Start date
That's exactly how it is. In Afghanistan, we hang signs in English and Pushtan from the back of our vehicles that say "Stay Back 50 meters". The reason is because if vehicles get too close, they could explode.
As for the Canadians assuming; assumption is the mother of all F*** ups. Their own fault if that was the case.
Something rattling around in my head...
Ground troop units usually react with gunfire, not as lone gunmen but on orders from a leader.
This takes the onus off the individual for a kill, but also leaves it up to a more senior and experienced officer to psych out the situation before ordering fire.
Would any good solder fire before ordered to do so? Only when cornered and alone or out of earshot from the CO.
Ground troop units usually react with gunfire, not as lone gunmen but on orders from a leader.
This takes the onus off the individual for a kill, but also leaves it up to a more senior and experienced officer to psych out the situation before ordering fire.
Would any good solder fire before ordered to do so? Only when cornered and alone or out of earshot from the CO.
Re: RE: Canadians Fired On In Iraq
Just to keep everything straight, those Americans that I mentioned were in "those highest levels" where I doubted that "anybody gives a shit."
Like most, I regret that it happened, and I honour the dead, but acknowledge that these tragedies will happen in a war zone.
What I was particularly noting was that the American troops have been making this kind of mistake far too often. Some mistakes could be from the stress of long tours and insufficient numbers, but I have not heard of the implementation of any great changes in their procedure aimed at reducing those kinds of mistakes.
In fact, being poisoned with cynicism, I actually suspect that some purposeful hits are being secreted amongst those mistakes.
For example, if Blair had not been able to talk Bush out of bombing the al-Jazeera office in friendly Qatar, would not some pilot have cooled his heels through a few weeks of R&R while the military investigated his mistake?
I don't know, and you don't know, but in the light of all that HAS happened, wouldn't we be foolish not to consider the possibility.
I SAID: "In the Bush dimension"Mogz said:
the caracal kid said:
Again, I would agree that the troops care, especially after they have killed an innocent person.Mogz said:
Just to keep everything straight, those Americans that I mentioned were in "those highest levels" where I doubted that "anybody gives a shit."
This has happened to Canadians, and quite recently in fact. (http://tinyurl.com/aqfp7) I haven't heard a great deal about any sea changes in our opinion.Mogz said:
Like most, I regret that it happened, and I honour the dead, but acknowledge that these tragedies will happen in a war zone.
What I was particularly noting was that the American troops have been making this kind of mistake far too often. Some mistakes could be from the stress of long tours and insufficient numbers, but I have not heard of the implementation of any great changes in their procedure aimed at reducing those kinds of mistakes.
In fact, being poisoned with cynicism, I actually suspect that some purposeful hits are being secreted amongst those mistakes.
For example, if Blair had not been able to talk Bush out of bombing the al-Jazeera office in friendly Qatar, would not some pilot have cooled his heels through a few weeks of R&R while the military investigated his mistake?
I don't know, and you don't know, but in the light of all that HAS happened, wouldn't we be foolish not to consider the possibility.
"Just to keep everything straight, those Americans that I mentioned were in "those highest levels" where I doubted that "anybody gives a shit." "
This is what i was agreeing with. Sorry for not specifying the "who" in my reply.
This is what i was agreeing with. Sorry for not specifying the "who" in my reply.
Sounds like very few here even bother to read the blogs put up through the military - or have an e-mail contact with any military in Iraq or Afghanistan but especially in Iraq.
Since the beginning of the incursion into Iraq by U.S. military I have followed the ever-growing military blogs.
They can offer a reader at home an accurate picture because they are at the line of action - whereas journalists write their colorful take from behind the lines (in most cases).
There are hundreds of blogs now, but the original ones during the first few years were immensely informative.
It never appeared to me that any soldier on the ground got off on killing. The post-investigative process is a pain for all of them and even when following orders, they would rather have a day when
the guns were not fired, nor any insurgent bombers try to destroy civilians going about their business...especially the kids going to school.
Here is a link to some of the military blogs:
http://www.blogsofwar.com/milblogs
Since the beginning of the incursion into Iraq by U.S. military I have followed the ever-growing military blogs.
They can offer a reader at home an accurate picture because they are at the line of action - whereas journalists write their colorful take from behind the lines (in most cases).
There are hundreds of blogs now, but the original ones during the first few years were immensely informative.
It never appeared to me that any soldier on the ground got off on killing. The post-investigative process is a pain for all of them and even when following orders, they would rather have a day when
the guns were not fired, nor any insurgent bombers try to destroy civilians going about their business...especially the kids going to school.
Here is a link to some of the military blogs:
http://www.blogsofwar.com/milblogs
Re: RE: Canadians Fired On In Iraq
Yes, how dare those civilians just wonder about THEIR own country like that. They should know that FOREIGN occupation soldiers are out and about protecting their freedom.
So how long should civilians be prisoners in their own land? I thought the Americans liberated them, it looks like they have less freedom today than before.
Mogz said:
Yes, how dare those civilians just wonder about THEIR own country like that. They should know that FOREIGN occupation soldiers are out and about protecting their freedom.
So how long should civilians be prisoners in their own land? I thought the Americans liberated them, it looks like they have less freedom today than before.
Das,
yes, it is worse now, but when it gets back to the way it was before the occupation just think how good it will look?
Managing expectation is a very important part of the US occupation. If they raise expectation too high, the US itself will be vilified by the Iraqis for failing to deliver.
yes, it is worse now, but when it gets back to the way it was before the occupation just think how good it will look?
Managing expectation is a very important part of the US occupation. If they raise expectation too high, the US itself will be vilified by the Iraqis for failing to deliver.
I especially like, “DISPENSING DEPLETED URANIUM FOR TRUTH, JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY!”Wednesday's Child said:
I don’t know if the grunts have been able to get in on all that good old propaganda money that the military has been ladling out over there, so, like with the civilian blogs, I’ll remain wary of my sources.
I agree that many soldiers, and former soldiers, prefer not to be involved in killing, so you will doubtlessly be intersted in this site, as well.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/
Virtual Burlesque said:
I especially like, "SELLING DEPLETED URANIUM FOR PROFIT WHILE THINKING YOU'RE BENEVOLENT, THE CANADIAN WAY!"
Holy shit, I step away from my computer for a few hours and now i've got a wack to respond to. *sigh*:
In reality a soldier is trained to fire under the rules of engagement. If the rules state fire when fired upon, a soldier cannot fire his weapon until he has been engaged. Rules of Engagement are present so people in a position of authority don't have to babysit their troops. Seldom does a CO have any role in a soldier firing his weapon. In Iraq, I'm unsure as to what the ROEs are, however I bet popping off shots and vehicles that fail to stop is right near the top of the ROEs.
I'm well aware that our troops have recently been subjected to attacks. MCpl Franklin is actually from the unit I am currently posted with; 1 Field Ambulance. I am aware that we are at war, i'm in the business. However I fail to see a correlation between the G-wagon attack and friendly fire. That all said, I will agree with you Virtual that the U.S. has a nasty track record of friendly fire accidents, no argument from me on that one bud.
I put no faith in blogs. I'm a soldier, I put faith in what i've seen and done. Most of the blogs are from people who have the time to write for hours on end about "the war they're in". Most blogs come from REMFs (Rear Eccelon Mother Fuckers), people who sit on their asses in a bunker answering phones all day while real soldiers are out fighting the war. When a soldier is in 'Ghan they hardly have any time on the computer. Certainly not long enough to both email friends and family, and keep an up to date blog. Who knows, maybe the situation has changed since I last experienced it, but from what I know, online time is minimal to say the least.
Hey, they can wander around sand-land all they want, but don't expect me to feel sympathy for the fools that wander down the street while bullets are flying. If that moron catches a bullet and dies; thinning out the herd I say. I never said I agreeded that the U.S. should have invaded Iraq, in fact i'm against it (Afghanistan is another story), however we can't change the fact that the war happened and as such people over there who aren't directly involved in the conflict should keep their heads down, OR stop bitching when some goat herder gets wacked by walking in to a fire fight. It all comes down to base intelligence. Are you intelligent enough to head for cover when the lead starts flying, or are you going to gawk like a tourist and play Survivor: The Home Game.
In reality a soldier is trained to fire under the rules of engagement. If the rules state fire when fired upon, a soldier cannot fire his weapon until he has been engaged. Rules of Engagement are present so people in a position of authority don't have to babysit their troops. Seldom does a CO have any role in a soldier firing his weapon. In Iraq, I'm unsure as to what the ROEs are, however I bet popping off shots and vehicles that fail to stop is right near the top of the ROEs.
I'm well aware that our troops have recently been subjected to attacks. MCpl Franklin is actually from the unit I am currently posted with; 1 Field Ambulance. I am aware that we are at war, i'm in the business. However I fail to see a correlation between the G-wagon attack and friendly fire. That all said, I will agree with you Virtual that the U.S. has a nasty track record of friendly fire accidents, no argument from me on that one bud.
I put no faith in blogs. I'm a soldier, I put faith in what i've seen and done. Most of the blogs are from people who have the time to write for hours on end about "the war they're in". Most blogs come from REMFs (Rear Eccelon Mother Fuckers), people who sit on their asses in a bunker answering phones all day while real soldiers are out fighting the war. When a soldier is in 'Ghan they hardly have any time on the computer. Certainly not long enough to both email friends and family, and keep an up to date blog. Who knows, maybe the situation has changed since I last experienced it, but from what I know, online time is minimal to say the least.
Hey, they can wander around sand-land all they want, but don't expect me to feel sympathy for the fools that wander down the street while bullets are flying. If that moron catches a bullet and dies; thinning out the herd I say. I never said I agreeded that the U.S. should have invaded Iraq, in fact i'm against it (Afghanistan is another story), however we can't change the fact that the war happened and as such people over there who aren't directly involved in the conflict should keep their heads down, OR stop bitching when some goat herder gets wacked by walking in to a fire fight. It all comes down to base intelligence. Are you intelligent enough to head for cover when the lead starts flying, or are you going to gawk like a tourist and play Survivor: The Home Game.
Re: RE: Canadians Fired On In Iraq
Now that's tacky. We do care. We would regret very much the death of anyone who was trying to help. Don't be so cynical.
Percy
the caracal kid said:
Now that's tacky. We do care. We would regret very much the death of anyone who was trying to help. Don't be so cynical.
Percy
Thinning the herd?
Come on man. How about if that poor guy is deaf, blind and dumb.
Just walking along, and then have some guys start shooting, it causes some people to just freeze man. And how about if they are looking for children and such, a person is a person.
A civlilian does not deserve to die in any kind of combat, no matter how stupid he or she is if some combatants decide to open fire around them.
Come on man. How about if that poor guy is deaf, blind and dumb.
Just walking along, and then have some guys start shooting, it causes some people to just freeze man. And how about if they are looking for children and such, a person is a person.
A civlilian does not deserve to die in any kind of combat, no matter how stupid he or she is if some combatants decide to open fire around them.
what is most interesting is a comparison between attitudes of "gangs" shooting at each other in canadian cities and "liberators" vs "insurgents" in Iraqi cities. The parallels are clear: it is the civilians in the streets that pay the highest price, yet the connie warheads will justify it in one location and condem it in the other.
and percy: sorry about that (again), i should have been clear i was refering to the US upper military powers, not the "average american".
and percy: sorry about that (again), i should have been clear i was refering to the US upper military powers, not the "average american".
Well I'll check out of this thanks....
I'm not about to get into a squabble about military. It would dishonor them and their service.
I'm not about to get into a squabble about military. It would dishonor them and their service.
On This Issue
While I am more or less confident that no soldier of the United States Armed Forces would intentionally fire upon, or overlook precautions to avoid firing upon, any members of the Canadian Armed Forces, I would also argue that an investigation couldn't hurt.
While I am more or less confident that no soldier of the United States Armed Forces would intentionally fire upon, or overlook precautions to avoid firing upon, any members of the Canadian Armed Forces, I would also argue that an investigation couldn't hurt.