Canadian Idol Fans Watching American Idol

ross 1

Senate Member
Dec 21, 2008
5,858
2
38
And that Memorial Day concert looks good interesting and BIG.

It's HUGE. I can't believe Kris is singing "that" song, though. He'll probably do it well, and even pick up a different type of fan...but I'm trying to figure out how he'll make it his own style.

I saw Stevie play with Bruce two times, btw.

I believe her name is Maureen

I think it is - she plays Gabriella Dante on The Sopranos, I guess (I've never seen The Sopranos).
 
Last edited:

missaddicted

House Member
Jan 16, 2009
3,177
0
36
So, are we ready for Good Ol' Motown week? Can Scotty do something else than boring country songs? Is Paul finally going to bring out the guitar instead of dancing like an idiot? Will Thia finally show some emotion while singing? Will Pia be ever so predictable and choose the diva-est of the Motown songs?
 

ross 1

Senate Member
Dec 21, 2008
5,858
2
38
So, are we ready for Good Ol' Motown week? Can Scotty do something else than boring country songs? Is Paul finally going to bring out the guitar instead of dancing like an idiot? Will Thia finally show some emotion while singing? Will Pia be ever so predictable and choose the diva-est of the Motown songs?

I don't know. I miss mentors. They brought some variety to the show. You didn't have to see the same people every week. I really do miss that format. More and more, as the weeks go by.

Okay, so -

Casey - you guys like him, I don't think he can sing well enough. Plus, even though he sings kind of like James Brown, he's a 19 year old white music student, and to me that's what he comes across as. He does remind me of Adam, in some way - in that theatrical way - but Adam can sing, and this kid, maybe not so much. What he does is cute, but really, I don't find it to be all that.

Thia - Nice, not great, meh, I don't know. Bland.

Jacob - He's very dramatic - it's just him, so if you like him, you like that. I can see why people would like him, but me, Not too much. Also, way too much vibrato.

The thing is these people have talent but they all seem to lack something. If you combined them all they'd make a good Idol winner, maybe.

Lauren - she has a good voice but she's somehow very ordinary. Including her voice. I can't get excited about Lauren. I want to give people props if they deserve them, so I'll say she sounds good. She can sing. It's just not interesting.

Stefano - JLo gives a good critique for once. I like Stefano, he can sing, though, unfortunately, I don't really like his voice a lot. I'm not all, "can't wait to see hear him again." Stefano has more charm than most of the rest of them, though. I think the critique was valid. I hate that song, btw.



Anyhow, he's old-fashioned-sounding, to me. Like, for ex., Kris listened to all that same music growing up and he loved it - but - he didn't copy it. He has his own style, while Stefano sounds generic r&b. He has clean vocals, though. Fewer runs would be okay.

I wish I could say something more positive, here.

Haley...actually, I want her to put on a skirt or some pants, or whatever. I noticed this in the results show last week. You don't have to show us your legs up to the hip every time, right? As for the singing - the overpraise this year is really getting to me. This was so meh and they are going nuts over it. Don't get it.

Scotty... At least he tried something a little different. To me he's all voice. No performance style. Yeah, he reminded me of Glen Campbell, also. It's interesting how he has no real vocal power (usually an American Idol requisite) but everyone thinks he's awesome. I don't actually get why he's so popular.

This year these people all seem like types. Almost stereotypes. The country singer. The r&b singer. The gospel singer. The teen pageant singer. The teen karaoke singer. The diva. Etc. I find it dull. I almost miss Season 9, right now.

Pia is standing still again and singing a ballad again. Which she does well. But I can't believe this is what the judges mean when they say they're looking for an original artist who's different from anyone else on the radio.

Paul. I don't think he's all that. He has an interesting voice, true. But something about him is blandly generic, as well. I don't think I'd listen to a record or a concert full of that voice. There's not enough there. He's not impressive, though he's (like a lot of them) strangely "professional." But if anything he has probably performed too much. He's found a niche and he's comfortable in it, and it's a very narrow niche, and that's it. He's not going to suddenly make us go, "Ow wow! Amazing!" Imho.

I'm sorry - I'm trying.

I really hate being so negative, but, like, dude, I have to honest, dog.

Naima. Nothing terrible about this. Nothing great about it. This is the dancing that Nigel was talking about, I guess. I have to give her credit for trying it but I didn't like it or hate it.

And...there's more? Who's left?

James. With the screaming high notes he keeps reminding me of Adam. I know we're not supposed to say that, for some reason, even though I can't believe no one else thinks that. But he was a little less than super-impressive, despite being good. The steps were fun, the voice was occasionally less than fantastic. Good. Not great. Very good, maybe.

I don't feel like voting, again. Tonight I think Jacob was possibly the best, sort of by default. I mean, he reined it in and at least he sounded like Motown.

Lee DeWyze gives a good interview (as usual). OK! Interview: Reigning ‘American Idol’ Winner Lee DeWyze - OK! Magazine - The First for Celebrity News

He talks a little bit about being compared to Cook and Kris. A lot of common sense.
 
Last edited:

SleepinIn

House Member
Dec 24, 2008
3,799
0
36
MOTOWN Done so many times on Idol

Random observation: Everyone except Casey is wearing black & white

CASEY Good advice from Jimmy regarding control and excitement. This however will not be good enough to top CI's Drew, Omer, and Gary's version which is one of my all time fave performances. Evah.

YouTube - Gary Morissette, Omar Lunan, Drew Wright

Casey's got great presence tho, and I enjoy him. But this wasn't all that and a bag of chips. Guess you can't really compare a trio to a solo performance...except... I just did. :p Not his best to be honest.

THIA

Heatwave... She kinda leaves me cold. Good vocals tho, just somehow it's all lacking something.

JACOB

Good advice: Restraint. This is key Jacob.

His best so far and it was probably restrained ...for him ;) so not for me tho. But he did good and he did have a lot of emotion in the song.

Randy...whhat best performance in the history of the show???? Whaaat? I don't even get you Randy.

Cute moment with the front row & Ryan

LAUREN

I loved the beginning of this, it was really beautiful. She kind of ran out of steam in the middle but still sounds good and didn't lose much performance wise.

STEFANO

Big Motown fan.. Never heard of hello...Never heard? of hello??? Never. What?!?

Eyes open..creepy and scary. Not liking it - he's got a voice tho. Good advice Jen. Connection is key.

Unfair Moment: Kid gets critiqued, then they give day old pasta to Gordon Ramsey for him to judge the mom's cooking in front of millions. Nice Ryan, nice.

HALEY

I really liked it, but I also lost sound on my tv half way through for a moment. Her best performance by far. But the walking down the stairs..super awkward. I thought she was pretty good tonight.

SCOTTY

He's got charisma out the whaazoo. The performance needed more urgency, good vocal tho.

PIA

Amazing amazing voice, so bored by it.

JLo is giving some good advice tonight.

[at this moment I would like to ask all Idol contestants to think of the viewer at home. Needs more pep thanks Just say no to the power ballad]

[Omg, crystal's so pissy on twitter - lmao]

PAUL

GUITAR!!!!!!! Tracks of my tears seemed out of tune at beginning but the Crazy dance was tamed by having to hold the guitar. I like what he was going for, but for me it didn't completely work. I really liked what I heard of the rehearsal tho.

NAIMA

You can sing in tune \o/ ! This is important, she done good.. and... Dance break. :) best of night for meeee!!

JAMES

James dances too! good stage work, charisma, it's not really a song I know but thank god it's not a ballad. Good energy, sounded good. BUT James it's a Live show bud ... Turn back to the judges.

also James is a giant next to Ryan. Lol


Best of night for me Naima, James

Goes home.. Thia?

AND, I LOVE that picture of Kris from the studio. It seems to be going well. LOL
 

ross 1

Senate Member
Dec 21, 2008
5,858
2
38
So do you guys miss mentors, or am I the only one? I guess I keep bringing it up because I'm curious how you feel. I know some people don't like them, and think it should all be about the contestants. But to me it was cool to see these stars every week. I also remember the contestants interacting with the stars as being a highlight for me. To me the celebrity mentors were a huge part of AI. I think it was what gave the show its extra something - and it seemed to validate everything. It was just very Hollywood. (Even when it was Toronto, and CI).

I didn't notice the costume color scheme. What color did Casey wear? I thought James was dressed wrong for maximum impact. This was a situation where a sharp suit and tie would have made a certain difference, I think.

Interesting comment about Scotty's charisma. I don't really have the same reaction to him.

AND, I LOVE that picture of Kris from the studio. It seems to be going well. LOL

Yeah! I wonder who that guy is. His twitter page has no real info.
 
Last edited:

SleepinIn

House Member
Dec 24, 2008
3,799
0
36
I'm of two minds on the mentors. It was great when they had a big star who was a mentor - someone who gave them good advice, and constructive criticism. (Yes, I agree Anne Murray was awesome-sauce) She gave them all solid advice to work with) So people like that I loved and it was great to have them on.

There were some that they had that were real space wasters, and I think in the long run Jimmy and friends working with them every week is a way to give them solid advice without the fluff. As long as they don't overpower the contestants own self to make them something they're not.

That being said there was a star quality to having someone like Stevie Wonder on the show that can't be denied.

Did they have mentors in the early years?

P.S. did you download Anoop's CD from Billboard? Anoop Desai 'Zero.0' Album Premiere & Download | Billboard.com

I like it.
 

ross 1

Senate Member
Dec 21, 2008
5,858
2
38
The Idol critic on Fox 25 is complaining that the songs tonight were 30 yrs old. (He talks, every performance night, with the two anchors on the 10:00 Fox news).

He thought Casey looked like "a prep school teacher from Vermont." He thought Casey was "awful." No soul. He thought someone should have sung Brick House. lol. He wonders why they are doing genres when they weren't supposed to. Pia "looked like she was going to a black tie dinner on Staten Island" Compared her to Celine, not in a good way.

Haley, bottom three, Naima, "no oomph," Lauren, "hot mess. Awful."

The achorwoman just said they'd better stop ripping on the show, since Fox is paying their salaries. lol.

There were some that they had that were real space wasters, and I think in the long run Jimmy and friends working with them every week is a way to give them solid advice without the fluff. As long as they don't overpower the contestants own self to make them something they're not.

That being said there was a star quality to having someone like Stevie Wonder on the show that can't be denied.

But can't Jimmy and co. give them solid advice off-camera? (Like Debra Bird and What's-his-name, Orland?) I don't necessarily need mentors for their advice - though occasionally it was actually good (Anne Murray) - it was just to give the show some glitz, for me. I just remember seeing Barry Manilow, Tony Bennett, Andrew Lloyd Webber, and so forth, years ago when I was flipping channels - and thinking, "Wow, this show is legit, if these stars agree to appear on it." It's very "Hollywood," but I like that. This year, it's about the record business, which is good, I guess, but that's rather dry, to me. No glitz.
 
Last edited:

SleepinIn

House Member
Dec 24, 2008
3,799
0
36
The Idol critic on Fox 25 is complaining that the songs tonight were 30 yrs old. (He talks, every performance night, with the two anchors on the 10:00 Fox news).

Hence... Motown.

The achorwoman just said they'd better stop ripping on the show, since Fox is paying their salaries. lol.

LOL. Ah, pissy Idols and pissy Idol fans. We go together I guess. Like Ham and Cheese.

Just looking at the twitter page of that guy working with Kris. Scott Stevens TheExies. Recently visited Brazil.. (I feel this is important, lol)

From his pictures (stalker moment) he seems to know a french Bulldog.. (they can bond). He also takes pictures of his iphone case, dogs, cats and shelves full of wine possibly Brazil.. and a girl, and a baby.

He's in the band The Exies

The Exies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He likes the Beatles and names his band after a line in a John Lennon biography. Their music was in a lot of video games.


This year, it's about the record business, which is good, I guess, but that's rather dry, to me. No glitz.

That's a good point. I have no doubt that what Jimmy's doing happened in all previous years, (but on a smaller scale) but it does remove a bit of the sheen and glam. I do like seeing that kind of stuff backstage stuff though, I wouldn't mind seeing more Debra Byrd too.
 
Last edited:

missaddicted

House Member
Jan 16, 2009
3,177
0
36
Maybe I'm just in a good mood, but I thought the show was pretty good. I thought Jimmy was much improved from last week (much better and contestant-appropriate advice) and I thought the judges were very good... well, maybe not Steven. I'm sure he said "beautiful" at least twice for each contestant, heh. But I give much props to Jennifer. She finally manages to give contructive criticism, while still being super nice and encouraging.

I guess I don't really miss the mentors for the most part. I'll take Jimmy and his team over Miley Cirus any day.

1. Casey: Well, it was like 100 times better than last week, but I was not as enamoured as the judges with his performance. I don't know, at the beginning (in his audition and Hollywood week), I thought he was really authentic, but now, something feels forced. It's too over the top somehow. I just want him to take a ballad and sing it as well as he can. He has great presence, but he needs to showcase his vocal chops more.

2. Thia: I actually enjoyed it. I was like, wow Thia is not a robot! It wasn't great but I thought it was so much better than her boring ballads.

3. Jacob: I guess there's something I just don't get about Jacob. A standing ovation from the judges, what? To me, he sounds horrible. No redeeming quality, I just hate his voice.

4. Lauren: I enjoyed it too. Not the greatest thing ever, but I appreciated the quality of her voice in that song.

5. Stefano: He was doomed from the start by doing Hello (BTW, Hello by Lionel Richie is Motown???). David Cook owns that song on Idol, and Ryan even named him in his intro to the performance. There was very much something lacking in his performance.

The food critic was just a super stupid idea.

6. Haley: My sound cut off too (CTV feed I guess... BTW, first year I get the CTV feed even though I watch on the FOX station, weird). I thought she was pretty good, but yeah, the legs and the crazy high heels were a bit too much.

7. Scotty: You say charisma SleepinIn, I say hamming it up for the cameras. It's the first week that it has really bothered me. And that arrangement was just terrible.

8. Pia: I always feel like I'm repeating myself with Pia. Beautiful voice and control and emotion and all, but man, is she boring!

What did Crystal say on twitter?

9. Paul: Well, this was much closer to the Paul that I like. I think his voice is shot though. Apparently, he has a pretty severe node on his vocal chords. I know Adam did a great version of that song on the show, but Paul's version was different enough to be interesting on its own. I'll chech out the iTunes recording.

10. Naima: She's not my favorite vocalist ever, but she sounded better than the last two weeks and I loved the dancing!

11. James: James makes me smile. Considering that I disliked him so much a few weeks ago, that is no small feat! I liked it a lot, he's definitely 100% authentic.

So, who's going home. I'd put my money on Haley I guess, but if it only was up to me, I'd kick Jacob out of there.
 

ross 1

Senate Member
Dec 21, 2008
5,858
2
38
Hence... Motown.

Well, that was his point - why are they doing Motown when the songs are all old, and the contestants are all young - and the contestants don't necessarily feel this music the way they would feel music from their own generation. And weren't they supposed to do away with genre nights and theme nights? And here they are with the SAME old genres, not even anything interesting or original. This is a major drawback, to me. These musical-showbiz geniuses can't come up with better genres? Or better ideas? The last time they did Motown at least it was tied in to Smoky Robinson mentoring. Which gave it some validity or raison d'etre.

I'll take Jimmy and his team over Miley Cirus any day.

Wait, wasn't she considered the biggest joke mentor of all time? I'd rather see Jimmy than Miley, as well, but I was talking about better artists and/or better mentors.

Personally, I guess I don't care if I ever see Jimmy or his team again, but I thought Harry Connick, Jr. was entertaining, last season, I enjoyed Jamie Foxx interacting with Kris, I liked Anne Murray and Gordon Lightfoot on CI, etc. I especially enjoy it when the idols perform a guest mentor's music. jmho.
 
Last edited:

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
First I have to say I much preferred the mentors, some were realy good and others not so good but it was at least more varied than the same producer every week. Maybe a combo of a mentor and producer would be better. Please, please bring back Gwen Stefani, please.

Now for tonights show. I am a huge motown fan and was excited to hear some great music but some of the real greats were overlooked, maybe its a licensing issue.

Casey - Still waiting for a fabulous vocal from him. He is lucky to have that offbeat 'king of cool' atmosphere going on which will only benefit him for so long...it is after all a singing competition. I would have much preferred him to have the big bass and sing that song in a more reserved manner.

Thia - I really like this girl. Tonights song choice was a big improvement and showed she is not the 'walt disney' singer my other half calls her. She always seem to have perfect pitch and a great tone. I still have to remind myself she is only 16..she sounds so much older when she sings.

Jacob - I would buy his records but would never see him live. He has a wonderful quality in his voice and he connects with eveything he sings but the facial expressions and over-the-top runs have gotta go. He reigned it in a bit tonight but still needs to bring it down a bit more.

Lauren - I haven't seen anything from her that makes me want to rush out and buy her album. She was OK tonight but still nothing special yet. I hate to say it but her cute and nervous thing is done getting her further. And that dress..yuck!

Stefano - The more I see him the more I think he would be best on broadway. He has a great voice but has no idea of how to feel what he is singing or convey it to the audience. Overpowered the song from note 1 tonight. Until he gets the whole 'perfomance' thing he might be short lived.

Hayley - She did quite well tonight considering her past 2 weeks. I think she has good talent and range she just need to show it more. I had the sound issue also but what we did hear was pretty good. I have to agree about the outfits, hot-pants went out in the 70's and don't need to come back.

Scotty - Quite diisapointed with his country spin on motown, it just doesn't work. This kid could win the Grand Ole Opry show without trying and seems to have the country fans votes locked so we will be stuck with him for a while I bet. I wish he would show us something different but bet the farm he won't.

Pia - Another power ballad... She is hot with a powerful voice but we need to see something more. If you are a big fan of Celine or Whitney then this is your girl. I am more inclined to like Janis or Aretha so until she shows me something different my like for her is fading fast.

Paul - I'm so glad he had the guitar and could give the weird dance tonight. I think I might go see him in the bar cover Rod Stewart all night but that is about it. He had a couple of good moments but picked a song where the original is so fantastic anything else pales in comparison. I might be biased by the fact Smokey is one of my musical heroes.

Naima - Definitely her best performance yet. Vocals were good, she was finally in tune. I liked the arrangement and the dance mix was well timed and distinctly different. She was probably the most improved as a result of the separation of singing and dancing.

James - He gave us another great show. His vocal was slightly off tonight in places but he always has the crowd going. I was ready to make him the next great rock god early on and he still has a shot but needs to concentrate on singing a bit more. There is tons of talent and charisma here and I'm rooting for him to do well.

Best of the night - James

Going home - Lauren
 

CapsuleNeo

Electoral Member
Sep 15, 2010
113
0
16
A lot of this season's contestants seem annoyingly cocky. Can't stand the way James acts after his performance and I think he is already starting to believe his own hype :shaking:.
 

ross 1

Senate Member
Dec 21, 2008
5,858
2
38
Maybe Nigel has sent out a directive that he's sick of the humble (read "boring") contestants and now he wants cocky. I wouldn't be surprised, since he's an idiot.

To tell you the truth, what I miss this season is any contestant that makes me smile with satisfaction as I watch them and listen to them, and say, "I get it."

These people this year are not really connecting emotionally through music. I don't know if they're to blame, or some kind of tight control over them. It's a little wierd to me that since they got on the big stage, Scotty McCreery hasn't played guitar or even worn a cowboy hat - because I'm sure in real life, that's exactly what he does - and I'm sure he performs with a country band, and not - whatever crazy arrangements they're giving him, here. I'm guessing I might even like him if I saw him as he really is. The same might be true of Paul. He's used to playing with a band and according to his publicity he plays over 100 shows a year. I'm not sure what Idol is trying to turn him into, but why not let him be himself and let us decide?

Have you noticed how they seem to want to make the inexperienced or deadly dull ones seem better by sort of handicapping the more interesting ones? Like, they don't want the musicians to stand out, too much. Because if they let them be themselves they would probably blow the Pias and the Thias and the Jacobs off the stage. I mean, there really are no seriously awesome musician-singers in the Cook vein, this year, anyway, but those who are there seem hamstrung.

ETA: It's not really all about instruments - I don't mean that - or maybe I do, I don't know. (I guess there are just too many singer-musicians out there today for me to believe this group is representative of the best auditioners - it's more like an unnaturally instrument-less group, chosen for that reason.) But - well - for male singers in their teens and 20's these days - unless they come out of the r&b scene, maybe - it's just more likely that they'll play instruments, or have a band, or something like that. How would "just singers" be singing, back home? In pageants? In church? In theatre? That's about it. James Durbin did a lot of his singing in community theatre musicals, for instance. (Maybe he also has a band - not saying he doesn't. I don't know.) That young chick from Georgia or wherever sang in karaoke bars.

But I'm not against singers who don't play anything, at all. So I don't know what I'm saying, I guess.
 
Last edited:

ross 1

Senate Member
Dec 21, 2008
5,858
2
38
Gee, PolitcalNick, I just read over my post and I said "I'm sure" twice! So I was sure two times, anyhow. :p

I'm also sure I'm not enjoying this season much! I have a strong feeling I'm being kept from enjoying some of these contestants the way they were meant to be performing. Maybe it's instruments, and maybe it's other things. I think they don't want it to be like last year - where too many of the Top 10 seemed like filler, with only about three of them seeming like stars. That's part of what made it a boring season. No suspense. It was never going to be a Tim Urban-Katie Stevens finale. So I'm guessing that this year they're trying to make the lesser ones and the better ones all look about the same - for a while. Then when it behooves them to discard some of the filler, the better ones will suddenly break out with better performances that are more true to who they are.. But they don't want the whole show to seem about three or four people, at this point. They need not only to sell the show but the tour. Personally I wouldn't go to this Top 10 tour, but I think the idea is to make it appear to be a cast of stars, the "greatest season ever," etc., so that the hype will keep viewers hooked and get people to go to the concert.
 

SleepinIn

House Member
Dec 24, 2008
3,799
0
36
The Best Season Ever thing happens every year, so that's sort of a whatever statement to me at this point.

I am happy about TOP 11!! Because even though he had some issues the past couple of weeks it was way too soon to lose Casey.

(my pool standings are gonna suffer tonight.. :) )
 

missaddicted

House Member
Jan 16, 2009
3,177
0
36
OMG! I thought Casey was gonna pass out/puke right there on the stage, he was shaking so hard!

Yeah, I'm glad he's staying, but I'm also glad that Jennifer told him what she did, because he does need to make an adjustment in his performances. I hope he did get the message! It was obvious that they would save him though.

My recording cut right there when Jennifer was talking, did they say if the 11 will go on tour?

I'm sure your pool standings won't be the only ones to suffer, SleepinIn!
 

SleepinIn

House Member
Dec 24, 2008
3,799
0
36
Yeah, I'm glad he's staying, but I'm also glad that Jennifer told him what she did, because he does need to make an adjustment in his performances. I hope he did get the message! It was obvious that they would save him though.

Yes, I agree. Jen's on top of things. I love it. And yep Ryan said that they had already decided if this happened that all 11 would go on tour. But, holy crap.. I thought Casey was going to pass out when they told him. I was a little scared to be honest.

So actually I'm happy for them all tonight, because they'll all make money and even though they'll lose two next week. This group will be reunited.

Gina's tweet post Idol was funny she tweeted LFraddy (Liz's friend) and PR peep for 19 and said that bets she was glad she didn't have to get up at 4 with the voted out contestant. She also used #winning - but let's not go there.

I wonder if Lizzie is touring with Lee. She's following a lot of Lee fans at the moment.
 
Last edited:

ross 1

Senate Member
Dec 21, 2008
5,858
2
38
So the big theory is that 11 are touring because Casey has that condiditon and if he's sick there will still be ten people. I don't really think it makes sense, though. For one thing, if anyone goes to the tour to see Casey, and he's absent, I don't think one more person (a person who is not Casey) on tour will satisfy that Casey fan. I don't especially think one more "filler" performer at the start of the concert will please anyone, either.

The other obvious thing is that the voters Thursday night were indifferent to Casey being on the tour, since he got the least number of voted and was, in theory at least, eliminated from the Top 10, and the tour. By the very people who are supposedly going to be upset if he isn't in the concert. Of course if the judges had not saved him they could have resolved the whole issue.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
I still can't get over the looks on the judges and other contestants when they said he was leaving. Randy looked completely disgusted with the vote. It is obvious this guy has some talent as an entertainer even if not the best vocalist. Anyway, I agree the voters did not make a good choice to get rid of him at this point, there are way less interesting people that weren't even in the bottom 3. I know my kid was telling me you can vote up to 50 times online and keep repeating that if you know how to proxy so maybe a little vote stuffing is going on. Maybe we might see some changes in the future about how the voting works. I would prefer to let the judges have more input down to the last 4.