Canadian Democracy - Takes another hit under Harper

Harper is abusing Parliamentary reviews of bills - and Parliamentary Committees


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PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
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The problem with that is that you support only local democracy. The idea of Parties is that they gather together a majority of all the people in a jurisdiction to provide wider democracy. Democracy with an agreed set of values and goals. Representing the wishes of "your" constituents sounds good but, what when your constituents will not support a necessary road through their community and demand that it go through a neighbouring area? For an example.

I support a full democracy. The great thing about an independent legislature is that my representative can vote against that road as per the wishes of his/her constituents but all the other member can vote for it, or against it, at the will of their constituents. The whole point of a representative democracy is that our elected MP is their to represent the will of their voters, not the will of half a dozen people from different areas who have assumed control of a party.
 

Cabbagesandking

Council Member
Apr 24, 2012
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They are there to represent the will of all voters. The view that you are espousing is that of an ancient tribal or feudal culture. Remember that organisation inevitably led to conflict and the gradual establishment of the dominance of one "lord" of tribe over the rest.

Ending democracy.

Parties have developed to get away from feudalism and bring democracy, as far as democracy is possible, to the nation.
 

Omicron

Privy Council
Jul 28, 2010
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Canadian Democracy - Takes another hit under Harper

Andrew Coyne: Bill C-38 shows us how far Parliament has fallen | Full Comment | National Post
You know, this is the sort of thing people used to make quite a bit of a fuss over.

Bill C-38, introduced in the House last week, calls itself, innocuously, “An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measures.” The bill does implement certain budget provisions, it is true: for example, the controversial changes to Old Age Security. But “and other measures” rather understates matters — to understate the matter.

The bill runs to more than 420 pages. It amends some 60 different acts, repeals half a dozen, and adds three more, including a completely rewritten Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. It ranges far beyond the traditional budget concerns of taxing and spending, making changes in policy across a number of fields from immigration (among other changes, it erases at a stroke the entire backlog of applications under the skilled worker program), to telecommunications (opening the door, slightly, to foreign ownership), to land codes on native reservations.

The environmental chapters are the most extraordinary. Along with the new Act, they give cabinet broader power to override decisions of the National Energy Board, shorten the list of protected species, and abolish the Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act — among “other measures.” For much of this the first public notice was its inclusion in the bill.

So this is not remotely a budget bill, despite its name. It is what is known as an omnibus bill. If you want to know how far Parliament has fallen, how little real oversight it now exercises over government, this should give you a clue.

Omnibus bills are not unknown: indeed, every budget is a kind of omnibus bill, bundling a range of different measures under the general rubric of “supply,” the ancient prerogative of Parliament to approve or withhold funds to the Crown to carry out its program of government. The omnibus crime bill, likewise, collected a number of different pieces of the Conservatives’ law and order agenda under one heading.

But lately the practice has been to throw together all manner of bills involving wholly different responsibilities of government in one all-purpose “budget implementation” bill, and force MPs to vote up or down on the lot. While the 2012 budget implementation bill is hardly the first in this tradition, the scale and scope is on a level not previously seen, or tolerated.

Not only does this make a mockery of the confidence convention, shielding bills that would otherwise be defeatable within a money bill, which is not: It makes it impossible to know what Parliament really intended by any of it. We’ve no idea whether MPs supported or opposed any particular bill in the bunch, only that they voted for the legislation that contained them. There is no common thread that runs between them, no overarching principle; they represent not a single act of policy, but a sort of compulsory buffet.

To be sure, a government with a majority would likely have little difficulty passing them separately, so obediently do MPs now submit to the party whip. But there is something quite alarming about Parliament being obliged to rubber-stamp the government’s whole legislative agenda at one go.

Moreover, it utterly eviscerates the committee process, until now regarded as one of the last useful roles left to MPs. How can one committee, in this case Finance, properly examine all of these diverse measures, with all of the many areas of expertise they require, especially in the time allotted to them?

My point is not that any of the bill’s provisions are good or bad in themselves (that’s the kind of thing committee hearings and debate often help to clarify). Nor is there anything unlawful in any of this, so far as I’m aware. According to House of Commons Procedure and Practice, “it appears to be entirely proper, in procedural terms” for a bill to amend more than one act; Speakers have generally refused appeals to divide them.

But there’s a limit. What is lawful may nevertheless be illegitimate, especially where fundamental issues of Parliamentary government are in play. For, in combination with so many recent abuses, from prorogation to the F-35s, that is what is at stake here.

That Parliament has lost control of the public purse is now a commonplace. Governments routinely spend billions more than they were budgeted. Estimates are voted through without serious scrutiny. Funds that were approved for the construction of, say, border infrastructure end up being spent on, say, gazebos hundreds of miles away.

But the increasing use of these omnibills extends Parliament’s powerlessness in all directions: it has become, if you will, omnimpotent — a ceremonial body, little more. What is worse, it cannot even seem to rouse itself to its own defence.

Once upon a time such insults could be relied upon to produce unruly scenes in the House, obstruction of government business and whatnot. The packaging of several pieces of legislation into one omnibus energy bill in 1982 provoked the opposition to refuse to enter the House to vote. The division bells rang for nearly three weeks until the government agreed to split the bill. The insertion of a single change to environmental legislation in the 2005 budget bill, a note from the Green Party reminds us, so enraged the then leader of the Opposition, Stephen Harper, that he threatened to bring down the government.

But today’s Parliament is so accustomed to these indignities that it barely registers. It has lost not only the power to resist, it seems, but the will.
How come nobody's noticing, nor squaking about, how Harper ran on a platform of "Open, Transparent Government"?

He's either being an incredible hypocrite, or he was bare-faced lieing from the start.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
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They are there to represent the will of all voters. The view that you are espousing is that of an ancient tribal or feudal culture. Remember that organisation inevitably led to conflict and the gradual establishment of the dominance of one "lord" of tribe over the rest.

Ending democracy.

Parties have developed to get away from feudalism and bring democracy, as far as democracy is possible, to the nation.

I'm thinking you might need to read the constitution and take a few classes in political science.

My MP/MLA/MPP is there to represent me and the citizens of the riding they are elected in, not the will of people in Quebec or NFLD or even the next constituency.

If it were as you say, for them to represent all voters then the system would be we all vote on all 308 seats.
 

Cabbagesandking

Council Member
Apr 24, 2012
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I have read the Constitution many times and have degrees in Political Science. Your members at any level are there to represent your wishes and views as far as they can without conflicting with the majority. The Public Good is not a personal good.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
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How come nobody's noticing, nor squaking about, how Harper ran on a platform of "Open, Transparent Government"?

He's either being an incredible hypocrite, or he was bare-faced lieing from the start.

He is only lying when his lips are moving! Can be said for 99% of politicians no matter what party affiliation.

This is another big issue with our system....the popularity contest!!! I would rather see a random draw from eligible voters where you serve 3 years as your civic duty if your name comes up.
 

Omicron

Privy Council
Jul 28, 2010
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I have read the Constitution many times and have degrees in Political Science. Your members at any level are there to represent your wishes and views as far as they can without conflicting with the majority. The Public Good is not a personal good.

Which means if a government panders to multinationals, cabals of hyper-rich, and special interest groups in any way that does not result in an improvement, or at least maintenance of the status-quo, of the Public Good, then that government is in violation of the constitution?

"Good Government" is one of the three paradigms upon which the Canadian Constitution is based... no?
 

Omicron

Privy Council
Jul 28, 2010
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He is only lying when his lips are moving! Can be said for 99% of politicians no matter what party affiliation.

Why do people whitewash someone's bad behavior on the basis of "but that's what everyone else is doing"?

I don't care if everyone else is/has-been doing it.

He's PM, and I want him to stop lying and/or stop being a hypocrite.

This is another big issue with our system....the popularity contest!!! I would rather see a random draw from eligible voters where you serve 3 years as your civic duty if your name comes up.

It's always been a popularity contest, but it's supposed to be that you're popular because you have the best policies and are the most qualified... not because you're the most skilled lier and/or hypcrite.

Given that a big chunk of Harper's core constituents are right-wing Christians, he should be worried about them skinning him alive, given that the thing Jesus hated more than anything was hypocracy. (The lying goes without saying, because that was covered by the Ten Commandments.)
 

Cabbagesandking

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Apr 24, 2012
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Which means if a government panders to multinationals, cabals of hyper-rich, and special interest groups in any way that does not result in an improvement, or at least maintenance of the status-quo, of the Public Good, then that government is in violation of the constitution?

"Good Government" is one of the three paradigms upon which the Canadian Constitution is based... no?

Unfortunately, in itself that behaviour is not a violation of the Constitution. The majority of voters decide what is the Public God and that ought to be reflected in the Party platform. Democracy means that the people have decided that the bad behaviour is what they want.

Of course, it is not so simple. It goes to the great weakness of democracy: that the people become complacent and lose their vigilance. Apathy reigns and ignorance follows. We get a Harper because the majority of his support thinks that he is a Conservative and the majority of the opposition, public opposition, also thinks that.

Democracy only works with an educated and engaged population. We have not had that for a few generations. And that is why you will find that most thinkers and writers are not terribly enthused about democracy as a system of govenment.

To the point of your later post. you should remember that it is the Alliance Church that Harper belongs to. For that Church anything is OK if it suits its purpose and hurries the "Rapture."
 

Omicron

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Jul 28, 2010
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The majority of voters decide what is the Public God and that ought to be reflected in the Party platform.

Yeah, well, the majority didn't vote for this government.

Democracy only works with an educated and engaged population. We have not had that for a few generations. And that is why you will find that most thinkers and writers are not terribly enthused about democracy as a system of govenment.
Uhh... because those "thinkers and writers" think they are the last people who can think and write?

To the point of your later post. you should remember that it is the Alliance Church that Harper belongs to. For that Church anything is OK if it suits its purpose and hurries the "Rapture."
So you mean, if humans were to figure out a way to reconcile with each other, and resolve their problems to live in peace, then that would be going against God's will?

Why?

Is there a finite number of unborn-souls in heavan, such that if we don't exterminate ourselves as a material life-form soon, then they're going to run out, whereupon subsequent offspring will be born without a soul? If that's the case, then an enterprising Deity would use that as an opportunity for people to go back and live life over again in order to not do all the things they regret from their first time around.

Or is it because souls are created by life, where the good ones are kept alive after their body dies, and the problem is that heavan is getting full, such that if we don't exterminate ourselves, then heavan will be overpopulated?
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Unfortunately, in itself that behaviour is not a violation of the Constitution. The majority of voters decide what is the Public God and that ought to be reflected in the Party platform. Democracy means that the people have decided that the bad behaviour is what they want.

Of course, it is not so simple. It goes to the great weakness of democracy: that the people become complacent and lose their vigilance. Apathy reigns and ignorance follows. We get a Harper because the majority of his support thinks that he is a Conservative and the majority of the opposition, public opposition, also thinks that.

Democracy only works with an educated and engaged population. We have not had that for a few generations. And that is why you will find that most thinkers and writers are not terribly enthused about democracy as a system of govenment.

As a physical scientist, let me point out the standard problem with social sciences: you take a model and then project that onto reality ignoring how poorly it fits. The voters do not decide on the public good, they decide on which name to tick off on the ballot. It is a very precarious chain to argue from there that they decide the public good. The assertion that this bad behavior is what the people want ignores the fact that only 40% of the population voted for the government, and ignores the fact that of that 40%, probably a whole bunch didn't vote on this issue.

The Dunning-Kruger effect basically proves that your ideal democracy can never work, in fact, a disengaged population is probably the only way that the Dunning-Kruger effect could be avoided--by sheer luck.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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They are there to represent the will of all voters. The view that you are espousing is that of an ancient tribal or feudal culture. Remember that organisation inevitably led to conflict and the gradual establishment of the dominance of one "lord" of tribe over the rest.

Ending democracy.

Parties have developed to get away from feudalism and bring democracy, as far as democracy is possible, to the nation.

Independent members would do as always - gravitate to those that hold similar beliefs. And those provinces that have the most seats would rule the roost as they saw fit.
So we end up back at the Party system. We just reinvent the wheel
One main problem is Committees- Most except for 1 is chaired by the Party in power. They also have no ability to compel testimony - issue warrants to appear - such as in the US.
They should have this ability. Including laid out clear penalties for Contempt of parliament.
And these committees should be on some sort of proportional - rotational basis for the chair.

Senate – How many Bills in the past 20 years have originated in the Senate – few if any – Why?
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
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Why do people whitewash someone's bad behavior on the basis of "but that's what everyone else is doing"?

I don't care if everyone else is/has-been doing it.

He's PM, and I want him to stop lying and/or stop being a hypocrite.
I didn't whitewash anyone's behavior. I don't like lying from our current govt and I didn't like from any previous govt. I simply pointed out that it is a consistent problem from all politicians as it is in their nature to say anything to win the popularity contest.

.. Because of the incessant absolution of these identical behaviours when it's the leader of the party that you happen to support.

In case you hadn't noticed I don't support any party, I support a completely independent legislature. There are parts of the CPC platform I agree with and parts I disagree with. Same goes for the Libs, Greens & NDP. That is why I support the independence of MPs, so they are not forced by party leadership to vote one way or another.
 

Cabbagesandking

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Apr 24, 2012
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Not sure whether the above are arguing with me or agreeing, . I would suggest, though, that a physical scientist's view of the social scientists is jaundiced and unwarranted. I doubt that models are superimposed on reality. Social scientists are more concerned with figuring out why reality is so unrelentingly in opposition to real long term benefits.

I submit that voters are voting for the Public Good. When they vote they do not just tick a name. They tick the name of the one who best fits that good as far as they are aware.

And that is where Dunning/Kruger enters. The religious response does not seem to be pertinent to what I wrote and seems to attribute to me a meaning that I did not imply. I pointed to the beliefs of the Alliance Church to which Harper is an adherent. They are scary when the holder has power.
 

Niflmir

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Dec 18, 2006
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I submit that voters are voting for the Public Good. When they vote they do not just tick a name. They tick the name of the one who best fits that good as far as they are aware.

But that is just it. A person who submits to "strategic voting" isn't voting according to a good that they perceive. Those individuals are voting according to their beliefs on what the rest of the country wants and they believe that their vote is best served by voting against a lesser evil--despite the fact that they might think another candidate has the better platform. You can just assert that that is the Public Good, but then you have just rendered the word meaningless--and you certainly aren't studying the voting phenomena empirically at that point.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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But that is just it. A person who submits to "strategic voting" isn't voting according to a good that they perceive. Those individuals are voting according to their beliefs on what the rest of the country wants and they believe that their vote is best served by voting against a lesser evil--despite the fact that they might think another candidate has the better platform. You can just assert that that is the Public Good, but then you have just rendered the word meaningless--and you certainly aren't studying the voting phenomena empirically at that point.

Well I voted PC in the last AB Provincial election due to the fact that I was completely against Wild Rose. I normally vote Liberal in AB Prov politics.
Many voters like myself looked at WR and did not like what we saw. I like may preferred the PC platform over the WR Platform.
Anyone with a lick of sense knew one or the other was going to govern.
So many Liberals and NDP voted for a Red Tory.
So tell me what theory applies to this situation?
 

Niflmir

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Dec 18, 2006
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Well I voted PC in the last AB Provincial election due to the fact that I was completely against Wild Rose. I normally vote Liberal in AB Prov politics.
Many voters like myself looked at WR and did not like what we saw. I like may preferred the PC platform over the WR Platform.
Anyone with a lick of sense knew one or the other was going to govern.
So many Liberals and NDP voted for a Red Tory.
So tell me what theory applies to this situation?

You explained your reason for voting. The only thing I was trying to point out is that people vote for many reasons. To label all reasons as The Public Good is to render the phrase meaningless; it certainly doesn't aid in understanding why we get these omnibus bills.