Canada tops, Harper shines?

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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You may be right. But who prevented provincial governments to either raise taxes or cut spending?
Nothing. And that's what has been going on. Martin allowed the provinces to count on fed transfer payments and stuff in his red book, and then swapped strategies and pulled the rugs out from under them. It's like me giving you a note of promise to give you $20 with one hand while my other hand is stealing the c-note from your pocket.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Good on then. But if when Paul Martin decided to cut funding to the provinces, the provinces decided not to respond, then they asked for it. BC did the right thing from what you're telling me here.
Yes it did, but Campbull also blew wads on the bloody Olys at the same time. SO BC is roughly in the same condition of a boat as the rest. Our health care is shoddy and we have massive debt and deficit.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Deregulation and government spending money it didn't have was well on its way under Reagan, but Bush simply continued further in that direction. It was under Reagan that taxes dropped like a led balloon without any comparable reduction in government spending. The Bushes just took it further, with ever further tax reductions and more government spending. A recipe for disaster.
Then Bush's action was an aggravator, like I said. So?
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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But ultimately, responsibility falls on the people. Here's a simple question. Two candidates present their plans for the economy:

The first will raise taxes and/or reduce government spending to balance the budget.

The other will increase spending and/or reduce taxes.

A responsible voter would vote for the first. An irresponsible voter for the second. After all, the people chose their leaders.
That is pretty simplistic. Most of us vote for the critter that will do our riding good and hope that our favored party has enough seats to govern. If it was as simple as voting directly for which party we wanted to govern, then fine.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Yes it did, but Campbull also blew wads on the bloody Olys at the same time. SO BC is roughly in the same condition of a boat as the rest. Our health care is shoddy and we have massive debt and deficit.

Ah yes, the Olympics. And how exactly did we benefit from them in any material way? Ah, well, it doesn't matter because it gave us a chance to beat our chests with national pride for a few days. That must be worth a few million dollars, no?:roll:
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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And you don't help the poor by piling debt onto them. You help them by giving them work. In fact, if we made it more difficult for people to borrow, what would likely happen is that construction companies would respond to the new demand for townhouses and condominiums and other forms of cheaper accommodation since no one would have the money for the big houses they can't afford anymore. When we make it easier for people to borrow, construction companies respond by moving out of the townhouse and condominium industry into the mansion industry. How does that help the poor?
It doesn't. But neither does ignoring the poor and shutting down programs that are supposed to help them. And that is what Martin and cronies did.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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That is pretty simplistic. Most of us vote for the critter that will do our riding good and hope that our favored party has enough seats to govern. If it was as simple as voting directly for which party we wanted to govern, then fine.

I think the right way to vote is for the local man/woman and to hell with any of the parties- they are all rife with corruption and the head honcho in Ottawa doesn't care about Thrums.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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It doesn't. But neither does ignoring the poor and shutting down programs that are supposed to help them. And that is what Martin and cronies did.

Of course we may have to help the poor, but not by encouraging them to live beyond their means. Why not provide them with more education so as to raise their ability to earn more money? Still, by making it more difficult for them to borrow money, we'd be encouraging construction companies to build more affordable housing and smaller houses. The poor might not like it, but they'd certainly appreciate it in the end when they realize they have no debt and that, however small their house is, they've actually paid it off.

And besides, if they can earn more money, they shouldn't need to borrow as much money anyway, right? Or at least if they must borrow, they will find it easier to borrow owing to a higher salary, not because the banks just lend to anyone.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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There is also a little discussed change in mortgages that the banks wanted to implement back in the nineties, which the Liberals did not allow. Once the Conservatives gained power, they allowed the change - which introduced the so called 0/40 mortgages (40 year amortization, with 0 down). This change was introduced to make the banks more "competitive" with their US counterparts. Of course, in the US this lead to the sub-prime loan meltdown. The conservatives did make a big deal about the fact that they cancelled the ability of the banks here to give to 0/40 loans as thier way to protect our banking system, as it was causing a mini-sub-prime problem here too (which the government bailed out as well). Of course, they fail to mention that it was their stupidity that permitted them to exist in the first place. Sheer incompentance in my opinion - but at least they recognized they fubared that one (even if it was after the damage was caused).


Quite so, the bad lending practices from USA were slowly permeating Canada, with the blessings of Conservative government. One was the 40 year mortgage. Another was zero down payment mortgage.

Both were discontinued as a result of the meltdown. Neither of them were in place long enough to do much harm. But it may be that Canada was lucky that the meltdown came when it did. If meltdown had not come for another couple of years, by then the practices of 40 year mortgage and zero down payment mortgage would have become widespread, and Canada may have had as big a crises as USA if it had occurred after two years.

So it is debatable whether Canada was spared due to sound economic management or because due to sheer luck. I suspect a bit of both.
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
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Cambridge, Ontario
That is pretty simplistic. Most of us vote for the critter that will do our riding good and hope that our favored party has enough seats to govern. If it was as simple as voting directly for which party we wanted to govern, then fine.

Most of us vote for whatever party we've been programmed to vote for.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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What is the degree of responsibility of the person that signs-up for a 0/40, or is it easier to just blame the groups that offer it?

The blame mostly goes to the bank for offering it. 40 year mortgage is very good for the bank, since it collects a lot of interest, much more than a 30 or a 25 years mortgage. As to the average citizen, many of them don’t think long term. They see that with a 40 year mortgage the monthly installment is smaller than a 30 year old mortgage and they are all for it. But the blame goes to the bank for offering such a scandalous, swindling product.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Most of us vote for whatever party we've been programmed to vote for.

Agreed. How most vote:

The party with the prettiest logo or most handsome or beautiful leader.

The party with the coolest music during an ad campaign.

etc.

That's why the party system has got to go. Most Canadians would vote for another Nazi Party if it could brand itself effectively with pretty colours and a handsome leader.
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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The blame mostly goes to the bank for offering it. 40 year mortgage is very good for the bank, since it collects a lot of interest, much more than a 30 or a 25 years mortgage. As to the average citizen, many of them don’t think long term. They see that with a 40 year mortgage the monthly installment is smaller than a 30 year old mortgage and they are all for it. But the blame goes to the bank for offering such a scandalous, swindling product.

One can hardly put all of the blame on the banks, and none on the homebuyers. At some point, people have to take some responsibility for their own decisions.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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Neither can be totally to blame for the meltdown, but both have accumulated debt which certainly at least contributed to it. The last time we had a sound economic policy was under Paul Martin, and the US under Clinton. Neither of them were particularly good either, but hey, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed are king after all.

Funny you should say that. I don’t know if you have read the story by H.G.Wells, ‘The Country of the Blind’. A man is lost in the forest and stumbles upon a country populated exclusively by blind people, blind from birth. Since the society is geared totally towards the blind people, it turns out that his eyesight was no advantage at all.

He was as helpless as a blind man would be in our world. The best he could hope for was to escape from there and come back to the world of the seeing.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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One can hardly put all of the blame on the banks, and none on the homebuyers. At some point, people have to take some responsibility for their own decisions.

I did not say all the blame goes to the bank, I said most of the blame goes to the bank. Sure borrowers are responsible for it, but that is human nature. Many people cannot think long term, they see lower mortgage payment and are attracted by it (by the 40 year mortgage). The blame goes to the banks for exploiting this weakness of human nature.
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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There are people for whom the 0/40 mortgage makes sense.

On the other hand, my mother in law just bought a condo on a line of credit, and has no intention of paying off the balance, only the interest. Should we blame the bank for allowing her to do this?
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Of course we may have to help the poor, but not by encouraging them to live beyond their means. Why not provide them with more education so as to raise their ability to earn more money?
Yeah, why not?
Still, by making it more difficult for them to borrow money, we'd be encouraging construction companies to build more affordable housing and smaller houses.The poor might not like it, but they'd certainly appreciate it in the end when they realize they have no debt and that, however small their house is, they've actually paid it off.
Construction companies? All they do is get work where they can and the bigger the project the happier they are. The gov't should make them build more affordable housing? The gov't should pay them to do it?

And besides, if they can earn more money, they shouldn't need to borrow as much money anyway, right?
Right. The gov't should start making jobs instead of giving big corps tax breaks and expecting the benefit to trickle down. Perhaps it should enable our own people to start up companies in manufacturing and stuff so we don't have multinationals owning our companies and off loading jobs to countries with smaller wages, etc.
Or at least if they must borrow, they will find it easier to borrow owing to a higher salary, not because the banks just lend to anyone.
We need more unions and union wages.