Canada - Healthcare "Parasite"

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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Sure, but my complaint is that you made it perfectly inelastic: ie an infinite elasticity. Which is completely unrealistic. It may be a high value, but at some price demand goes to zero. I mean, just imagine if the price was a million dollars. Obviously nobody could afford it. But in your example, 20 million people could

I'm just using the example to be illustrative on a message board, not as a basis for a Ph.D. thesis.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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You already know this, but the point is that the winners are subsidizing the losers (as occurs in any business/sector).

This pretty much captures the pharmaceutical model. Most drugs in trial never make money. It is the blockbuster drugs that make most of the profit for the pharmaceutical companies.
 

Niflmir

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Dec 18, 2006
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Sure, but my complaint is that you made it perfectly inelastic: ie an infinite elasticity. Which is completely unrealistic. It may be a high value, but at some price demand goes to zero. I mean, just imagine if the price was a million dollars. Obviously nobody could afford it. But in your example, 20 million people could

I'm just using the example to be illustrative on a message board, not as a basis for a Ph.D. thesis.

Yes, and it just so happens that due to the unreasonability of your example you have ensured a favorable conclusion.

Yet, you automatically rule out my claims when I considered a more realistic model. Try it yourself if you do not believe me. Assume some slope on the demand curve. Find the competitive market price allowing other nations to exist, which means you will have to project the need onto the other populations. Because its a medication, projecting the percentage is reasonable. Then compare the competitive market price to $12.

I mean it is a trivial conclusion really. If it would cost $12 per pill to recuperate the costs if only the US was considered, then once you allow consideration of other countries you realize that less than this would be required. Sure, it is true that in some sense in your example, Canada is leeching. But consider countries other than Canada to begin with. In Germany for instance the price would be unregulated. Thus you could easily institute controls to bring the price down. Since the price would likely be less in Germany, due to the way the health insurance works here, Canada would have a price higher than $7 as it is pushed towards the median. Allowing in further decreases in prices in the US.

It is a simple fact: monopolies charge more than competitive market price. They do this to maximize their profits. Due to the anti-competitive nature of a monopoly, price controls are reasonable and necessary. That there may be countries leeching the fact that you have allowed them to charge more is irrelevant to the conclusion that the price being charged is higher than necessary.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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This pretty much captures the pharmaceutical model. Most drugs in trial never make money. It is the blockbuster drugs that make most of the profit for the pharmaceutical companies.

R&D costs are where the bulk of the price tag comes from. These costs have increased exponentially over time, way ahead of inflation. The lag time for decisions and the resulting impacts is in many cases a decade or more.

Maybe Pharmaceutical companies should be scrutinizing their decisions more wisely, if they plan on recouping their R&D costs for failed drugs from the successful drugs. Fewer drugs will be made, but also more people would be able to afford the true cost of the drug.

Drug development once it's beyond the discovery of the compound, and animal models typically consists of three stages. The first stage is on healthy humans to establish safe dosages, and to collect toxicology data. Stage two is where the drug is given to patients with the intended disease to combat. It includes more people than stage one.

Stage three is where the bulk of the cost comes from, though the probability of the drug progressing from this stage to successful application of a new drug, is roughly the same for stage two to three progression. So, it stands to reason that perhaps the investigators should use far more conservative statistics at this stage to elucidate successful results, especially since the costs of conducting a stage three trial, which includes multiple facilities around the country/continent/world, re so staggeringly high.

Maybe if policy makes the bottom line tougher to swallow, the research teams won't be so gung ho to move onto new trials with marginal results. Of course this has to be weighed against the particular disease that the drug targets.
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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Sure, but my complaint is that you made it perfectly inelastic: ie an infinite elasticity. Which is completely unrealistic. It may be a high value, but at some price demand goes to zero. I mean, just imagine if the price was a million dollars. Obviously nobody could afford it. But in your example, 20 million people could.

Niflmir this claim that it is almost inelastic is much the same as that of the Music / Movie Royalties that now hold onto rights of song writers and actors for almost infinity although most Record / Movie studio's barely pay out a fair share of the real money given to the people who made the production. This industry has a lock on Royalties that are like no other..

Toro Medicine usually is derived from a plant or earth bound natural resource that is reproducible in large volumes when a drug makes it. When that capacity is reached and new equipment is used to make the "new pills" for which a patent has expired and a generic is now allowed most companies have maximized their ROI ( Return on Investment ) two to three fold.

Added the research grants and annual company loses the company writes off on taxes for each drug they try to make in the losing year of research the tax payer funds..

If I were to try and launch a product and it failed, would all of the US or Canada feel sorry for me because my product, pay me huge sums of money just because, it was a stupid idea and didn't work. That is what happens to the many pills that do not cut it.. Sorry but I feel no pity for those research labs and they GET MY TAX money..
 

Francis2004

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Nov 18, 2008
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Do you know any business losing money still in business after many years ?

The American commercial passenger airline industry over a century has made cumulative losses. Stunning, but true.

Sorry but the only airline that really went under in normal circumstances was Eastern Airline and PanAm of the Major ones..

Please back up the rest of the claims that AA, UA or any of the others have ALWAYS been losing money and staying in business ?

I remember looking at Air Canada's balance sheet and them claiming loses back in the 80's but it was loses compared to "anticipated" budget yet had still cleared profits.. Let's not get lost in the mumble jumble of analyst talk..

And yes there will be years when companies lose money.. I would imagine that recessionary years affect everyone..
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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Francis

All the income statements of all the publicly traded airlines filed at the SEC site are online. You can access them there.

Since the Wright Brothers, if you added up all the money the commercial passenger airline has made, you would find a loss.
 

Francis2004

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Nov 18, 2008
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Francis

All the income statements of all the publicly traded airlines filed at the SEC site are online. You can access them there.

Since the Wright Brothers, if you added up all the money the commercial passenger airline has made, you would find a loss.

Toro

If you were to add up all the Lumber, Steel, High Tech, Fast Food and so on companies filed income statements of course every industry would show a loss.. So many companies fail compared to those who do make it that is skews the industry that way.

You must take every company individually and look at their books separately over the years to see if they were financially afloat and average it out.. One cannot keep claiming losses year after years and depend on creditors to support them unless they are a crown corporation..
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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If you were to add up all the Lumber, Steel, High Tech, Fast Food and so on companies filed income statements of course every industry would show a loss.. So many companies fail compared to those who do make it that is skews the industry that way.

Francis

This is not correct. Almost all industries have made money over time.

Some industries have generated earnings below their cost of capital, meaning they have destroyed value - lumber and steel come to mind. However, almost all have generated profits. Tech has been very profitable.

I understand your skepticism re airline losses. I was skeptical also until I dug into the financial statements.
 

Francis2004

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If you were to add up all the Lumber, Steel, High Tech, Fast Food and so on companies filed income statements of course every industry would show a loss.. So many companies fail compared to those who do make it that is skews the industry that way.

Francis

This is not correct. Almost all industries have made money over time.

Some industries have generated earnings below their cost of capital, meaning they have destroyed value - lumber and steel come to mind. However, almost all have generated profits. Tech has been very profitable.

I understand your skepticism re airline losses. I was skeptical also until I dug into the financial statements.

Toro

This is a lost cause..

Unless you can point out a creditor that will support a losing industry and show me the numbers you have no point.. There is no business that constantly runs in deficit no matter how much you wish to believe it so unless it is a crown corporation.

Eventually the creditors will get you and as in the case of Eastern Airline and PanAm the books finally close out on you. And even those two had profitable years.. Eastern Airlines had the US military contract for ages and still went to far in the last years with Unions and debt..

As I said, you cannot have a business running today that is always in the red.. It cannot happen.. You cannot make me believe that, sorry..
 
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Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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That's your loss then.

This is the website for the SEC. All corporate filings are here.

Filings & Forms

You can search all financial statements for all airlines here. It takes some time, and I am not interested in doing this again. But if you really are interested, search the financial statements for Delta, Northwest, American, United, USAir, Southwest, the feeder airlines such as ASA, etc and you will see that it is true.
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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That's your loss then.

This is the website for the SEC. All corporate filings are here.

Filings & Forms

You can search all financial statements for all airlines here. It takes some time, and I am not interested in doing this again. But if you really are interested, search the financial statements for Delta, Northwest, American, United, USAir, Southwest, the feeder airlines such as ASA, etc and you will see that it is true.

OK so I tried to pull up the 10-K fillings and it will not sort them so here is the one I could pull up ?

aa022010k.htm


for American Airlines..
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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I can't see your link Francis. For some reason, the software doesn't work for me.

Hey it works fine for me..

Try this..

Add the HTTP:// www. at the front of the rest of this link..

.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/4515/000000451508000016/aa022010k.htm

If it don't work I can't help you..
 

GreenFish66

House Member
Apr 16, 2008
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Private versus public health care?

oops sorry off topic...lol....

Private vs public health care..?

Public health care is the way to go..There are pros and cons to any heath care system...However ..If someone is sick/hurt ..It is in everyones interest they get better...Or we all suffer later...

In a public system(if it works correctly ) there is more accountability and transparentcy .No need to fudge the numbers inoreder to keep you edge against market competition/Release wonder cures ..then wonder if they work based on Private interest group reports....People are ensured they are getting the best health care for the least ammount of $$..

Public health care helps keep the checks and balances all together ..The stats and figures in one place...

In both systems there is the risk of "drug pushing ",mis diagnosis.rich being first in line to get that best new high tech remedy ..

But in public health care the public has more of a voice /choice when it comes to sustaining a healthy population..

Again in public health care there is more Transparentcy and accountability..

Only exception..(one I am keepin an eye on) is when it comes to pushng flu vaccines/hype over H1N1 ...An issue that is a concern no matter whether you support public or private health care...

I believe every citizen no matter what country your from , should know that they're country cares about them enough to give them the basics to ensure a healthy life and to live with peace in mind.......

If not ..then we start to walk the fine line between the right to live and Euthanasia ...

In Canada the sign says .."do not Jump!"

In the U.S it says''"Jump at own risk"

Perhaps the happy medium would involve a claus that if you do somethin stupid ..You get nothin/no help.! ...That Would save people a lot of money...

Every heard of the darwinian awards?...Perhaps can be used as a tool to decide what NOT to give free health care for...

After all that ... it's mostly about insurance...Should be about ensurance
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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That's not it.

I am interested to know if he is correct or not. I am wondering if anyone can offer a factual rebuttal to his argument.

I do believe that Americans generally subsidize the world for healthcare but I never thought it was because of the fixed costs of pills.

Just logic.
Drug manufacturing companies are located all over the world, so why would the U.S. want to control the cost of pills, individual companies do very well doing it.
 

jackd

Nominee Member
Nov 23, 2004
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in the US where drug companies spend a ton to develop new wonder drugs
Then they spend 2.5 tons in marketing/promotion.
Did you know that the the pharma. companies spent nearly $70,000 on promotion/marketing/advertising per U.S.physician during 2007.
That roughly 2.5 times what they spent on R&D. Manufacturing costs are about equal to promotion/marketing /advertising costs.
PROFITS EQUAL 2 TIMES WHAT THEY SPEND ON R & D
As advertizing and promotion of prescrition drugs aimed directly at the public in Canada (and in most other civilized countries around this blue planet) it is only fair that overall prices are lower.
 
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