Canada: A Banana Republic?

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
917
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Hither and yon
Looks like it.
It’s just possible.

Granted its all my opinion.
Looks like the coalition is a go.

We now have Chretien, Martin ,Romano, McKenna and Broadbent and more agreeing to run the country behind the scenes between rounds of golf.

Why?

Because they can, and they think its fun thing to do in their spare time.
Not a one of them elected.
Swell, Huh?

So how does it work?

Looks like the coalition government is a go.
The Libs, the NDP and the Bloq.
The main turd in the soup is the BQ.
Make no mistake they Bloq’s stated goal is the destruction of confederation.
So maybe they get seats or maybe it’s some weird letter or promise they made.
Either way people who are opposed to confederation will be partially running the country.

And the Libs and the NDP will be backing it.

The GG has to believe that the coalition can run the country before she buys in and lets it happen.

By definition that is impossible if you include the Bloq because as stated before their sole goal is the destruction of Canada.
She will make Canadian history one way or another.

People are squawking about the recorded BQ (separatist) and NDP phone call.
True, your not supposed to record private phone calls.
But hey, it is what is.
A deal between the NDP and the Separatists to seize control of Canada.
Its all on tape.
And the deal was made months ago.

$30 billion dollars spending plus an as yet completely unlimited deficient is the agreed on plan so far for the coalition.
Roughly half to Ontario for the auto workers (keep in mind those are American owned company’s).
And the other half to Quebec. Call it a forestry thing.
Pretty much nothing for the rest of Canada except massive debts and deficits to pay off..

And god knows what the Bloq itself gets.
Maybe they get to Nationalize and be their own country?
Maybe they get to outlaw the English language?
Who knows once they get to help run Canada.
Whatever they want I guess.

Lets take another a quick look at this coalition.
Others have pointed out that Harper got less than 45% of the vote last election.
True.
Dion got what? 17% or so.
And now he gets get’s to speak for the Coalition?
17% of the vote and he gets to seize control of the government, without an election?
Some Democracy

The NDP got absolutely nothing to speak of Federally.
And we share power with them running the country?

And we have an ongoing Liberal leadership race.
Swell.
And now they get to run the country, effectively leaderless?

Word is that Ignatieff is the fly in the ointment.
This whole deal is making his skin crawl.
Whatever.

The Bloq got absolutely nothing outside of Quebec.
And some think it’s OK that they get a say in running confederation.
It’s insane.
Its legal (possibly) but its not Democracy.
If you want Democracy you go to the polls.
Period..
That defines Democracy.
You vote for your Government.

This coalition can all go to the polls at will.
But no.
The plan is to avoid it at all costs.
The LIbs, the Bloq and The NDP have a plan to run the country.
Without an election.
Without any kind of Democracy.
They just seize control of the country
And pretend elections don't exist.
For 2 ½ years.
Vote free and completely unelected.

But after that what happens?
How does it shape our country?
What will become of the future Governor General?
How will other Democratic countries deal with an non-elected government?
How will Canadians feel about a political organization (the coalition) that is non-elected and avoids the polls at all costs.

Why not just accept the old coup d' eta and cheesy junta’s?

You can almost hear the gunfire and see the machete’s gleaming in the jungle.
First world it ain’t.

Democratic…fraid not.


Trex
 
Last edited:

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Trex, you are labouring under several misconceptions. First, the coalitions is by no means a done deal. The three parties may have .agreed to it, but the GG hasn’t.

If Harper prorogues the Parliament, it will be very difficult for GG to go against his recommendation. Indeed, I don’t think there is a precedent for it. I don’t think there has been a single case where the PM prorogued the Parliament and GG refused the request.

So Harper can prorogue the Parliament until March and then bring in the budget in March, as is usual. He can govern for 3 to 4 months more without getting the confidence of the Parliament.

Then assuming his budget is defeated, he probably will recommend to GG that Parliament be dissolved and new elections be held. Again, it will be very difficult for GG to go against his recommendations.

So the three parties may have reached an agreement, but it is by no means certain that there will be a coalition government.

The GG has to believe that the coalition can run the country before she buys in and lets it happen.

GG has to do nothing of the sort. In practice, GG rarely goes against the recommendation of the Prime minister.

A deal between the NDP and the Separatists to seize control of Canada.
Its all on tape.
And the deal was made months ago.


The deal was not made months ago, it was made days ago. NDP and Bloc were talking months ago, Liberals were in no way involved.

Lets take another a quick look at this coalition.
Others have pointed out that Harper got less than 45% of the vote last election.
True.
Dion got what? 17% or so.


Dion got 17%? A total lie, Dion got 26%. And Harper didn’t get less than 45%, don’t try to inflate his figures (then why not say that Harper got less than 90%?), he got 37%.

The NDP got absolutely nothing to speak of Federally.

Oh, really? Are you saying that NDP got zero votes federally, that NDP and Libs combined got 17% votes federally? The fact is, Lib and NDP together got way more votes than Cons did.

The Bloc got absolutely nothing outside of Quebec.
And some think it’s OK that they get a say in running confederation.
It’s insane.
Its legal (possibly) but its not Democracy.


I beg your pardon? It is very much democracy. Coalition is an integral part of any democracy.

How will other Democratic countries deal with an non-elected government?

They won’t deal with an unelected government, they will very much be dealing with the government elected by the people, a coalition government. A government which got more votes than Cons did (without the Bloc) and got more than 50% of all the votes (if Bloc is included).

Democratic…fraid not.

Indeed, the very epitome of how a democracy works. The whole exercise is fully legal and democratic. But as I said at the beginning, don’t assume that it is a done deal, Harper has still got quite a few aces up his sleeve.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,372
14,303
113
Low Earth Orbit
More votes went to the other parties than to Harper. He was doing a ****ty job and it cost him. This is Democracy at it's finest.

It must really suck to a Conservative right now so I won't laugh.
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
11
Aether Island
If I may be so bold as to repeat myself?

We are governed by representatives we elect to serve our best interests. We do not vote for a party; we do not vote for a prime minister. This is not a republic, banana or otherwise. The elected representative who serves as prime minister serves at the pleasure of the House. Regardless of what you or I may think of the "coalition of the willing," it is consistent with our constitution and our parliamentary traditions.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,372
14,303
113
Low Earth Orbit
Amen brother Quartz.

This is what democracies do when the standing leader is a fool and blew his chances on moon pies and penny whistles instead of doing what was best for Canada.


Harper was an experience that has cost me close to $20K and I'm glad to put it behind me.
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
11
Aether Island
In 2004, when Bush was elected a second time, he declared he had acquired "political capital" which he was prepared to spend. Few will quibble that today he has no Capital at all.

When Harper was elected a second time in 2008, he spent his political capital much more quickly. It is no coincidence that Harper and hubris and hell all begin with an aspirant "H"!
 
Last edited:

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
917
31
28
Hither and yon
Trex, you are labouring under several misconceptions. First, the coalitions is by no means a done deal. The three parties may have .agreed to it, but the GG hasn’t.

If Harper prorogues the Parliament, it will be very difficult for GG to go against his recommendation. Indeed, I don’t think there is a precedent for it. I don’t think there has been a single case where the PM prorogued the Parliament and GG refused the request.

So Harper can prorogue the Parliament until March and then bring in the budget in March, as is usual. He can govern for 3 to 4 months more without getting the confidence of the Parliament.

Then assuming his budget is defeated, he probably will recommend to GG that Parliament be dissolved and new elections be held. Again, it will be very difficult for GG to go against his recommendations.

So the three parties may have reached an agreement, but it is by no means certain that there will be a coalition government.

The GG has to believe that the coalition can run the country before she buys in and lets it happen.

GG has to do nothing of the sort. In practice, GG rarely goes against the recommendation of the Prime minister.

A deal between the NDP and the Separatists to seize control of Canada.
Its all on tape.
And the deal was made months ago.


The deal was not made months ago, it was made days ago. NDP and Bloc were talking months ago, Liberals were in no way involved.

Lets take another a quick look at this coalition.
Others have pointed out that Harper got less than 45% of the vote last election.
True.
Dion got what? 17% or so.


Dion got 17%? A total lie, Dion got 26%. And Harper didn’t get less than 45%, don’t try to inflate his figures (then why not say that Harper got less than 90%?), he got 37%.

The NDP got absolutely nothing to speak of Federally.

Oh, really? Are you saying that NDP got zero votes federally, that NDP and Libs combined got 17% votes federally? The fact is, Lib and NDP together got way more votes than Cons did.

The Bloc got absolutely nothing outside of Quebec.
And some think it’s OK that they get a say in running confederation.
It’s insane.
Its legal (possibly) but its not Democracy.


I beg your pardon? It is very much democracy. Coalition is an integral part of any democracy.

How will other Democratic countries deal with an non-elected government?

They won’t deal with an unelected government, they will very much be dealing with the government elected by the people, a coalition government. A government which got more votes than Cons did (without the Bloc) and got more than 50% of all the votes (if Bloc is included).

Democratic…fraid not.

Indeed, the very epitome of how a democracy works. The whole exercise is fully legal and democratic. But as I said at the beginning, don’t assume that it is a done deal, Harper has still got quite a few aces up his sleeve.

Umm... so this is this is where I eat crow.
Almost all my numbers were wrong.

The Gilbert and Sullivan dude: all his numbers are correct.

I guessed and posted right off the top of my head and I admit it.
36 Con
30 Lib
17'ish Dip
11'ish Bloq
Thus I was winging it.

Like any weaselly internet person lets just move along as quickly as we can.
My point stands.
Skipping lightly over the numbers I still agree partially with G&S.
I recognize it will be wicked difficult for the GG to go with the coalition.
Realistically there is no precedence.
That wasn't my point.
Assuming it DOES happen was my point.
Maybe you or I should start a new thread.
A "where do we go from here " thread.

Frankly I suspect she will not recognize the coalition.
CBC seems to think it is a done deal.
But Harper must pay in any case.
Perhaps a negotiated Harper led, nothing passed without all party approval government up until the new Lib leader is well ensconced.
And then back to the polls.

My prior point was an unelected government should not seize contoll of the government with a multiple year agenda.
Even if there leader got say 30% of the national vote.
Or thereabouts.
Trex
 

Walter

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 28, 2007
34,888
126
63
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Perhaps a negotiated Harper led, nothing passed without all party approval government up until the new Lib leader is well ensconced.

Trex, that is the only way to realistically govern in a minority government. Especially today, when we have deep economic turmoil, all the parties have a stake in fixing the economy. Harper should have consulted the opposition parties and come up with a consensus financial statement.

If he had consulted opposition parties, he could have even got away without including any stimulus in the financial statement. If he had discussed the budget with the opposition parties, come up with a stimulus in the budget and given the opposition parties assurance that the budget will contain a stimulus, opposition parties may not have opposed the financial statement.

Also, it is not correct to say that there has to be an agreement about everything. There has to be an agreement only about the confidence bills, mostly economic bills such as a budget. On everything else, even if the Cons are defeated, the government does not fall. Thus if government brings forth a crime bill and it is defeated, no big deal, government still survives.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Every one of the coup members has been elected democratically, I think it's dynamic democracy at it's best. In any case if it disposes of those Reform people it's good. What will we call the government, a Coalition of The Billing maybe.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Looks like it.
It’s just possible.

Granted its all my opinion.
Looks like the coalition is a go.

We now have Chretien, Martin ,Romano, McKenna and Broadbent and more agreeing to run the country behind the scenes between rounds of golf.

Why?

Because they can, and they think its fun thing to do in their spare time.
Not a one of them elected.
Swell, Huh?

So how does it work?

Looks like the coalition government is a go.
The Libs, the NDP and the Bloq.
The main turd in the soup is the BQ.
Make no mistake they Bloq’s stated goal is the destruction of confederation.
So maybe they get seats or maybe it’s some weird letter or promise they made.
Either way people who are opposed to confederation will be partially running the country.

And the Libs and the NDP will be backing it.

The GG has to believe that the coalition can run the country before she buys in and lets it happen.

By definition that is impossible if you include the Bloq because as stated before their sole goal is the destruction of Canada.
She will make Canadian history one way or another.

People are squawking about the recorded BQ (separatist) and NDP phone call.
True, your not supposed to record private phone calls.
But hey, it is what is.
A deal between the NDP and the Separatists to seize control of Canada.
Its all on tape.
And the deal was made months ago.

$30 billion dollars spending plus an as yet completely unlimited deficient is the agreed on plan so far for the coalition.
Roughly half to Ontario for the auto workers (keep in mind those are American owned company’s).
And the other half to Quebec. Call it a forestry thing.
Pretty much nothing for the rest of Canada except massive debts and deficits to pay off..

And god knows what the Bloq itself gets.
Maybe they get to Nationalize and be their own country?
Maybe they get to outlaw the English language?
Who knows once they get to help run Canada.
Whatever they want I guess.

Lets take another a quick look at this coalition.
Others have pointed out that Harper got less than 45% of the vote last election.
True.
Dion got what? 17% or so.
And now he gets get’s to speak for the Coalition?
17% of the vote and he gets to seize control of the government, without an election?
Some Democracy

The NDP got absolutely nothing to speak of Federally.
And we share power with them running the country?

And we have an ongoing Liberal leadership race.
Swell.
And now they get to run the country, effectively leaderless?

Word is that Ignatieff is the fly in the ointment.
This whole deal is making his skin crawl.
Whatever.

The Bloq got absolutely nothing outside of Quebec.
And some think it’s OK that they get a say in running confederation.
It’s insane.
Its legal (possibly) but its not Democracy.
If you want Democracy you go to the polls.
Period..
That defines Democracy.
You vote for your Government.

This coalition can all go to the polls at will.
But no.
The plan is to avoid it at all costs.
The LIbs, the Bloq and The NDP have a plan to run the country.
Without an election.
Without any kind of Democracy.
They just seize control of the country
And pretend elections don't exist.
For 2 ½ years.
Vote free and completely unelected.

But after that what happens?
How does it shape our country?
What will become of the future Governor General?
How will other Democratic countries deal with an non-elected government?
How will Canadians feel about a political organization (the coalition) that is non-elected and avoids the polls at all costs.

Why not just accept the old coup d' eta and cheesy junta’s?

You can almost hear the gunfire and see the machete’s gleaming in the jungle.
First world it ain’t.

Democratic…fraid not.


Trex

Thankyou for the enjoyable nicely built story Trex.:smile:
 

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
917
31
28
Hither and yon
Just pull out 17 and punch in 30.
The point stays the same.

Unless you really want to flog the whole lying, cheating,delusional, too god damn lazy to reference his numbers thing.
D******D
Trex
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Just pull out 17 and punch in 30.
The point stays the same.

Unless you really want to flog the whole lying, cheating,delusional, too god damn lazy to reference his numbers thing.
D******D
Trex

Not me man, I actually thought it was a good read. Numbers don't mean nothing to me.:smile: