Can Ignatieff distance himself from his past?

Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
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It's too easy... Afterall, Iggy and the liberals have offered-up a bounty of opportunities with which to 'educate' the Canadian public relative to exactly what kind of ego-maniacal, back-stabbing opportunist the Iggy is.

Here's a site for you to check out... It offers the truth about Dear Leader for your own educational purposes.


Ignatieff.me
all that is partisan propaganda, one thing is for real is the dirt the Conservatives are throwing on Iggy is trivial and irrelevant.


$100 + Billion over the next 5 years is total stupid financial incompetents.
Iggy’s past is clean and still to this day the Harper Conservative Government has not told the people what their plan is, all they have said solid is that we are @ $50 Billion and counting to keep Canada’s economy functioning.

But very quick to inflict voter psychology manipulation by conducting them self as sleazy bad politicians, lunching ads that divert attention from the poor incompetent Harper Conservatives.

 

L Gilbert

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the-brights.net
However much I think Harpy and crew are out to lunch, Iggy doesn't seem too much on the ball either. From what I've heard he's more concerned about spending a lot on EI than he is about getting people to work. So in that sense he's no better than Harpy. He'd just spend in different ways.
 

captain morgan

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offering up a website that appears on a conservative add hardly qualifies as "truth".

get a new schtick, repetition is boring.



Not boring for me...

Regardless of where or who sponsors the website, ALL of the content are items taken from televised interviews with Iggy, excerpts from his speeches or magazine/book quotations from this clown.

There is no way that you or anyone else (in particular the liberal party) can deny these comments.

.... So, what do you think of his patriotism? (that'd be his professed Canadian patriotism)
 

captain morgan

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all that is partisan propaganda, one thing is for real is the dirt the Conservatives are throwing on Iggy is trivial and irrelevant.


Propaganda?

The words are directly from Iggy.



$100 + Billion over the next 5 years is total stupid financial incompetents.
Iggy’s past is clean and still to this day the Harper Conservative Government has not told the people what their plan is, all they have said solid is that we are @ $50 Billion and counting to keep Canada’s economy functioning.



I notice that you shy away from Iggy's policies (at least the few he's mentioned.... To recap; Institute a carbon tax, increase GST and he wanted his stimulus package to be much fatter.

That said, what's all this BS you spout re: how much Harper is spending?.. To me, it sounds like you don't have a clue about what the liberals intend - you vote liberal 'just because'.


But very quick to inflict voter psychology manipulation by conducting them self as sleazy bad politicians, lunching ads that divert attention from the poor incompetent Harper Conservatives.


Harper's ads will have a huge impact on the undecided vote and that does not bode well for the liberals.
 

captain morgan

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I won't disagree with you there... The reality is that politics and politicians are synonymous with amorality, unethical behaviour, lies, deceit and skulduggery... It's what the public has come to expect and to a degree is now desensitized.

That does not excuse the practice, however, once the element gets momentum, it takes a very long time to turn around.
 

aman12

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Feb 22, 2009
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I have met every PM from Diefenbaker to Martin.( I mean really talked to over several occasions and not just a handshake). While I may have disagreed with some of their policies, I remain convinced that each one was motivated by a deep love of the country and truly acted in what he or she thought was right at the time. Although I have not met the current PM, I cannot say the same about Mr. Harper. Ignatieff, however, does seem to have our interests in mind.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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SOC,

It's too easy... Afterall, Iggy and the liberals have offered-up a bounty of opportunities with which to 'educate' the Canadian public relative to exactly what kind of ego-maniacal, back-stabbing opportunist the Iggy is.

Here's a site for you to check out... It offers the truth about Dear Leader for your own educational purposes.


Ignatieff.me

Wow, that had one link to an outside source which is probably the same guy who made the website to attack Iggy.

It's not even that all the attacks are simple personal insults, but that you expect reasonable people to accept an editorial from a neocon news blogger as some sort of in depth investigation into the Liberal leader.

It's like saying here is proof about Obama and linking an article written by Ann Coulter.

This is something I've noticed about the right in Canada since Harper came along.
It's not like there simply aren't any real issues to fight for, but perhaps only that Harper doesn't know what they are.

I am sure that once an election is called, Iggy will provide plenty of points that Harper can then address by calling him names.
 

JLM

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I was reading up on Ignatieff in Wikipedia:

Michael Ignatieff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As it turns out, he supported the Iraq War too, but has sinse distanced himself from it. Here's the quote from Wikipedia:

[edit] International affairs

Ignatieff has written extensively on international development, peacekeeping and the international responsibilities of Western nations. Critical of the limited-risk approach practiced by NATO in conflicts like the Kosovo War and the Rwandan Genocide, he says that there should be more active involvement and larger scale deployment of land forces by Western nations in future conflicts in the developing world. Ignatieff attempts to distinguish his approach from Neo-conservativism because the motives of the foreign engagement he advocates are essentially altruistic rather than selfserving.[15]
In this vein, Ignatieff was a prominent supporter of the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.[16] Ignatieff says that the United States established "an empire lite, a global hegemony whose grace notes are free markets, human rights and democracy, enforced by the most awesome military power the world has ever known." The burden of that empire, he says, obliged the United States to expend itself unseating Iraqi president Saddam Hussein in the interests of international security and human rights. Ignatieff initially accepted the position of the George W. Bush administration: that containment through sanctions and threats would not prevent Hussein from selling weapons of mass destruction to international terrorists. Ignatieff believed that those weapons were still being developed in Iraq.[17] Moreover, according to Ignatieff, "what Saddam Hussein had done to the Kurds and the Shia" in Iraq was sufficient justification for the invasion.[18][19]
In the years following the invasion, Ignatieff reiterated his support for the war, if not the method in which it was conducted. "I supported an administration whose intentions I didn't trust," he averred, "believing that the consequences would repay the gamble. Now I realize that intentions do shape consequences."[16] He eventually recanted his support for the war entirely. In a 2007 New York Times Magazine article, he wrote: "The unfolding catastrophe in Iraq has condemned the political judgment of a president, but it has also condemned the judgment of many others, myself included, who as commentators supported the invasion." Ignatieff partly interpreted what he now saw as his particular errors of judgment, by presenting them as typical of academics and intellectuals in general, whom he characterised as "generalizing and interpreting particular facts as instances of some big idea". In politics, by contrast, "Specifics matter more than generalities".[20]
On June 3, 2008, Michael Ignatieff voted to implement a program which would “allow conscientious objectors…to a war not sanctioned by the United Nations…to…remain in Canada…”[21][22][23]
Ignatieff has also spoken on the issue of Canadian participation in the North American Missile Defence Shield. In "Virtual War," Ignatieff refers to the likelihood of America developing a MDS to protect the United States. Nowhere did Ignatieff voice support for Canadian participation in such a scheme. [24] Further, in October 2006, Ignatieff indicated that he personally would not support ballistic missile defence nor the weaponization of space.[25]

It would seem that Ignatieff's view of the Iraq War was that he supported the war in spite of disagreeing with the intentions. This view is slightly different from the one I'd had from the beginning. I supported the War on the grounds that Hussain had violated human rights, but on condition that it have international support, recognizing that if US intentions should become suspect, the US would not get international co-operation, as has been the case. Ignatieff's view seems to have changed along the same lines, recognizing that intentions, or even perceived intentions, are just as important as the act itself in determining its chances of success.

Personally, I recognize that a person's views do change, but also like proof that they have indeed changed and that the same error in judgement is not likely to be repeated again. Do you think Ignatieff's history on this might come back to haunt him next election?

For the good of Canadians I'm not sure that it is important that he does. For the time being I think I'd stick with Harper and if he screws up to bad then we may have to take a close hard look at Ignatieff. To be honest I'm not all that enthralled with the man, I think Liberals could do better. He may be a bit of a snake oil salesman. Just my feeling, so don't ask for links :lol::lol:
 

JLM

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I won't disagree with you there... The reality is that politics and politicians are synonymous with amorality, unethical behaviour, lies, deceit and skulduggery... It's what the public has come to expect and to a degree is now desensitized.

That does not excuse the practice, however, once the element gets momentum, it takes a very long time to turn around.

You're a wise man Capt.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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Wow, that had one link to an outside source which is probably the same guy who made the website to attack Iggy.

It's not even that all the attacks are simple personal insults, but that you expect reasonable people to accept an editorial from a neocon news blogger as some sort of in depth investigation into the Liberal leader.

It's like saying here is proof about Obama and linking an article written by Ann Coulter.

This is something I've noticed about the right in Canada since Harper came along.
It's not like there simply aren't any real issues to fight for, but perhaps only that Harper doesn't know what they are.

I am sure that once an election is called, Iggy will provide plenty of points that Harper can then address by calling him names.


I just don't understand you liberal fanatics. For some bizarre reason, you refuse to believe that Ignatieff made the statements despite the archived video from sources outside of Canada and the quotes from books/magazines that are not Canadian publications, let alone conservative affiliations (or republican as the case may be).

These are factual statements made by Iggy himself. Neither Ignatieff nor the liberal party are contesting the comments, are they? Their only rebuttal depends on some watery commentary about attack ads and how they are unable to afford their own.

The only thing that is more pathetic than the liberals choice in a leader is the whinning by the supporting flock that absolutely refuses to recognize that Iggy actually made this myriad of comments that are negative to all Canadians.
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
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I just don't understand you liberal fanatics. For some bizarre reason, you refuse to believe that Ignatieff made the statements despite the archived video from sources outside of Canada and the quotes from books/magazines that are not Canadian publications, let alone conservative affiliations (or republican as the case may be).

These are factual statements made by Iggy himself. Neither Ignatieff nor the liberal party are contesting the comments, are they? Their only rebuttal depends on some watery commentary about attack ads and how they are unable to afford their own.

The only thing that is more pathetic than the liberals choice in a leader is the whinning by the supporting flock that absolutely refuses to recognize that Iggy actually made this myriad of comments that are negative to all Canadians.

I had this discussion (well, maybe not THIS discussion - but a discussion about Iggy's "patriotism") with my wife last night.

The simple fact is Iggy said stupid things. Harper has said reprehensible (IMHO) things attacking this country as well, especially when he was head on the NCC (Canada exemplifies the worst of a 3rd rate Northern European socialist state, We should build a fire wall around Alberta, when asked if he "loves Canada" all he could mutter was Canada is OK, called the Maritimes a culture of defeat, went the US (when he was leader of the opposition) to apologize for our Country not joining the war in Iraq, etc...)

Simply put, IMO - Harper has no leg to stand on when critizing Ignatieff's love, or lack of love, for this country. I consider the issue a "push," neither being better than the other.
 

captain morgan

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i won't disagree with you Pegger... However, the liberals have/had identified these elements in the past. To their credit, they used Harper's own words against him.

That said, it is nothing short of blind faith and hypocrisy that leads a liberal supporter to:

a) Cry foul re: attack ads considering the liberals have pursued this policy whenever possible.

b) Pretend that Ignatieff didn't make these asinine statements.
 

Unforgiven

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I just don't understand you liberal fanatics. For some bizarre reason, you refuse to believe that Ignatieff made the statements despite the archived video from sources outside of Canada and the quotes from books/magazines that are not Canadian publications, let alone conservative affiliations (or republican as the case may be).

How can a neocon fanatic understand anything other than neocon fanaticism?
No one refuses to believe Iggy made statements. It's that they are told that the statements as, mundane as they are, are supposed to be the greatest insult to Canada and Canadians ever made. Or so you and Harper claim.

I heard all the ads that Harper has run and not one of them say anything about what he wants to do with the economy. Nothing about unemployment. Nothing about Canada at all other than who those who work outside Canada at some point are not really Canadians any more. Seems to me that wasn't an issue when Israel was kicking the hell out of Hezbollah and all sorts of Canadians popped up with passports wanting a free ride home to Canada. No questions about how long they had been out of Canada or anything. Why is it now that a Canadian comes along that will unseat Harper and his minority government, that he chooses to raise the ugly thought that some Canadians are not equal to other Canadians in his eyes?

Sorry that's bigotry.


These are factual statements made by Iggy himself. Neither Ignatieff nor the liberal party are contesting the comments, are they? Their only rebuttal depends on some watery commentary about attack ads and how they are unable to afford their own.

Maybe that's where you are having a difficult time understanding people. Harper's record is there is black and white. And red when it comes to the books. Flaherty doesn't know what he's doing and Harper won't do anything to get him out of the cabinet position. Harper calls the people of Quebec separatists as though to lump them all together regardless of their political position simply because they don't support him. This isn't a leader of our country Canada. He's nothing more than a bitter Albertan who has never been able to bring even a majority of voters together let along the rest of the citizens of Canada. Not that it seems all of them matter to Harper.

Iggy can bring the country together so we can get the real issues managed. Issues like the recession, unemployment, building a new economy out of the one that is on it's last legs. Rebuilding our relationship with the US and making the inroads to Washington that Harper is unable to manage now that the leadership has changed.

He did say that Americans have to decide what kind of America they wanted. Is that wrong or are you some how insulted by that? Maybe it's that dual citizenship is fine as long as it's not American/Canadian citizenship.

The only thing that is more pathetic than the liberals choice in a leader is the whinning by the supporting flock that absolutely refuses to recognize that Iggy actually made this myriad of comments that are negative to all Canadians.

None of the comments are negative to wards Canadians. But perhaps you have just indicated what the real problem with Conservatives in Canada is. No mind of your own means that only what Harper tells you is an issue registers. You seem unaware that there are thousands out of work in this country. Or that the government is spending more than it takes in. That the whopping tax break just as the economy is failing wasn't the smartest move possible.

But you wouldn't know that because you're a little busy fighting the election that hasn't started yet.

The Conservatives are the next Opposition party in Canada. Feel free to enjoy the fun of making insults at those who return the economy back to a growing and stable one where people have jobs and a future.
 

captain morgan

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No one refuses to believe Iggy made statements. It's that they are told that the statements as, mundane as they are, are supposed to be the greatest insult to Canada and Canadians ever made. Or so you and Harper claim.

Mundane for Joe Six-Pack to utter.... Highly damaging to anyone that wishes to lead a nation... BTW - Stating that the only thing he misses about Canada is Algonquin Park IS an insult to every Canadian, apparently except you for which you feel Iggy has bestowed a great honour.



I heard all the ads that Harper has run and not one of them say anything about what he wants to do with the economy. Nothing about unemployment. Nothing about Canada at all other than who those who work outside Canada at some point are not really Canadians any more.

First:

Harper also hasn't stated anything about Algonquin Park either?

Harper hasn't opined about how to run his newest bestest adopted nation, the USA.

The Canadians that wanted a Canadian sponsored free-ride home were (ironically) those citizens that the liberal party wooed as the new-immigrant-vote-that-will-support-liberals-because-they-granted-them-citizenship (it's a proven fact BTW).

Oh, yeah, almost forgot... care to comment on Iggy's ingenious plan for EI and the economy? (I wait with baited breath on this one from you).




Sorry that's bigotry.


.. Ah yes. When any form of reasonable and rational debate is absent - holler bigotry (or racism).... Typical.


Maybe that's where you are having a difficult time understanding people. Harper's record is there is black and white. And red when it comes to the books. ........

........He's nothing more than a bitter Albertan who has never been able to bring even a majority of voters together let along the rest of the citizens of Canada. Not that it seems all of them matter to Harper.


No problem understanding people unforgiven, in fact, I fully understand you! You're upset that the liberals are self-destructing. You're choked that Iggy has a 2-dimensional character that has no policy. You're embarrassed on behalf of Iggy and the party that he makes such retarded statements like: "You're on probation".

etc, etc, etc.

As for Harper, he's not bitter at all. In fact, he's probably the happiest guy in Canada afterall, he is the leader of the nation, his closest rivals have only rejects to choose from as party leader like Dion and Iggy and he has a plethora of very recent and expensive scandals that will dog the liberals for years to come.




Iggy can bring the country together so we can get the real issues managed.....

..... Rebuilding our relationship with the US and making the inroads to Washington that Harper is unable to manage now that the leadership has changed.


Ironic. You demand that Harper 'bring the country together'?.. You mean repair the rift started by Trudeau and widened by Chretein? For that matter, you want Harper to repair the damage that both Trudeeau and Chretein did to Canada/US relations.



He did say that Americans have to decide what kind of America they wanted. Is that wrong or are you some how insulted by that? Maybe it's that dual citizenship is fine as long as it's not American/Canadian citizenship.


Iggy also decided what kind of America that he wanted AS AN American.




But you wouldn't know that because you're a little busy fighting the election that hasn't started yet.


Nope... Just making sure that everyone gets to hear Iggy's opinions of Canada.
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
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@ unforgiven - the success of these adds is that the Conservatives (and their partisan supporters) are dictating the debate - and have turned it from what it should be - which is a critical review of the Harper Government's accomplishments (or lack there of) - into a debate about the character of Ignatieff.

The reason it won't work on me is that I believe that Harper Government is the most incompetent bunch of fools around. There is not one file that they have bungled, lied on, turned into a bigger issue than it is, or flip-flopped on in their short tenure. I refuse to give certain criticisms more weight than they are due.

The next election needs to be a "referendum" on Harper - not like the last election - which became a referendum on Dion. The Liberal party needs to do the following:

1) Start detailing and attacking the abysmal record on the Harper conservatives. There is plenty of ammo out there.
2) Start differentiating themselves from the Conservatives (and NDP, Bloc) by having a full economic, socio-political and government plan ready to go
3) Start offering alternatives to the failed policies of the Harper Conservatives.

So long as they sit back, and allow Harper to dictate the tone and content of the debate, the Liberals will be hamstrung.

This whole Ignatieff thing is simply a shiny object put in front of the population of Canada to distract from the incompetence of this government. Stop allowing yourself to be distracted by it.