Bush’s Iraq syndrome
- Thread starter Anonymous
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LuShes said:
I'm in Raleigh, North Carolina-- home of Duke University, UNC Chapel Hill, NC State.....
And really lousy fried, greasy EVERYTHING.
But the weather is great.
moghrabi said:
I'm sorry-- but where am I wrong? And what tricks are you referring to?
Are you saying you DIDN'T post that article? Are you saying that you DIDN'T try to justify yourself in subsequent posts?
Please, enlighten me.
I am not saying you are right or wrong. I posted articles written by others to prove to you that there are injustices done by the Jews as well as by the Arabs, British, Americans and so on.
I think you have a good head in your shoulders and i want to justify what I am saying. Now it is coming to accusing me of anti-semitic. I am a semitic person. So how can I be anti-semitic?
I think you have a good head in your shoulders and i want to justify what I am saying. Now it is coming to accusing me of anti-semitic. I am a semitic person. So how can I be anti-semitic?
moghrabi said:
That fact that you are semitic is irrelevant.
Anti Semitism, in it's common usage, is universally recognized as being anti Jewish.
I can only assume that you read the article and understood it's meaning. he article clearly attempts to justify mistreatment of Jews throughout history-- a point YOU defended.
As for your moral ambiguity towards Anti Semitism, once again you clearly define your character.
Let me 'enlighten' you. It was Christian Europe that persecuted Jews. Why you, as a 'semite' as you refer to yourself, being part of a group that did not persecute Jews for most of history, would so joyfully justify that behaviour is beyond me or any other rational thinker, I'm sure.
Rather than take the moral high ground, you step into the gutter.
How telling.
Let me tell you a secret. Jews, like Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc., come in all flavors- good bad and average.
For you to justify the perscution of any minority is outrageous.
As a minority, as you call yourself, you'd do well to remember that.
>>I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, Haggis.
Yes, it is clear by your post that you missed my point, Research. I was not drawing comparisons between Canadians and Americans. My comments were made in rebuttal to the notion that the US is all-powerful, at the height of its powers.
Your post, on the other hand, is all to do with comparisons between the two countries and citizenry, and therefore, to me, seems irrelevant to the point I was making. However I can't resist responding to a couple of your points:
>>Canada has legitamized gay marriage, despite polls showing the majority of Canadians of all stripes and religions oppose the idea.
I have yet to see a poll that shows the majority of Canadians opposed to the idea of gay marriage. Further, are you suggesting that Canada is somehow unique in the matter of legalized gay marriages? I ask simply because Massachusetts has, after all, passed a similar law.
>>I could go on and on, of course-- but my point is, throwing stones at sweeping generalities is a pointless endeavor.
No, no, I am not throwing stones at sweeping generalities. I am throwing stones at Americans. Sorry, could not resist, and no, I am not throwing stones at Americans, I am commenting, based on personal observation, on the change in the psyche of the American people. Where once the American Way of Life was purportedly to be about freedom, civil liberties, justice for all, it now seems to be about rights to ingest junk food, drive supersized SUVs and watch reality television.
I lived for many years in the US - Washington, California, New Mexico, Georgia - and have seen for myself the dramatic changes taking place with the American psyche. It is, after all, no more than what Michael Moore, Ted Rall, and a myriad of others have been telling us all along: something is sick at the heart of America, and until that sickness is addressed, the United States is not the power it perceives itself to be, and the patriotism and sense of moral superiority expressed by its citizenry is both blind and empty.
Yes, it is clear by your post that you missed my point, Research. I was not drawing comparisons between Canadians and Americans. My comments were made in rebuttal to the notion that the US is all-powerful, at the height of its powers.
Your post, on the other hand, is all to do with comparisons between the two countries and citizenry, and therefore, to me, seems irrelevant to the point I was making. However I can't resist responding to a couple of your points:
>>Canada has legitamized gay marriage, despite polls showing the majority of Canadians of all stripes and religions oppose the idea.
I have yet to see a poll that shows the majority of Canadians opposed to the idea of gay marriage. Further, are you suggesting that Canada is somehow unique in the matter of legalized gay marriages? I ask simply because Massachusetts has, after all, passed a similar law.
>>I could go on and on, of course-- but my point is, throwing stones at sweeping generalities is a pointless endeavor.
No, no, I am not throwing stones at sweeping generalities. I am throwing stones at Americans. Sorry, could not resist, and no, I am not throwing stones at Americans, I am commenting, based on personal observation, on the change in the psyche of the American people. Where once the American Way of Life was purportedly to be about freedom, civil liberties, justice for all, it now seems to be about rights to ingest junk food, drive supersized SUVs and watch reality television.
I lived for many years in the US - Washington, California, New Mexico, Georgia - and have seen for myself the dramatic changes taking place with the American psyche. It is, after all, no more than what Michael Moore, Ted Rall, and a myriad of others have been telling us all along: something is sick at the heart of America, and until that sickness is addressed, the United States is not the power it perceives itself to be, and the patriotism and sense of moral superiority expressed by its citizenry is both blind and empty.
Mea Culpa, Haggis-- I misunderstood your point.
If I'm not mistaken, you take issue with the homogenization of American culture.
Your observations on Americans, are to a great degree, accurate. Still, it is their culture, such as it is. I'm leery of deciding what is and what isn't culturally appropriate for anyone else. I don't like it, but hey-- 'T'aint mah bakyahd'!
I did laugh when I read your referance to Michael Moore-- to me, he's a bit 'over the top'-- in other words an American!
By the way, the referances I made to gay marriage in Canada came from a WP article. I can look for it for you to referance if you like. The MA law will be overturned, says conventional wisdom down here.
Lastly, IMHO, an observation: Americans NEED patriotic display. Seems to bind the country together-- for better or worse.
If I'm not mistaken, you take issue with the homogenization of American culture.
Your observations on Americans, are to a great degree, accurate. Still, it is their culture, such as it is. I'm leery of deciding what is and what isn't culturally appropriate for anyone else. I don't like it, but hey-- 'T'aint mah bakyahd'!
I did laugh when I read your referance to Michael Moore-- to me, he's a bit 'over the top'-- in other words an American!
By the way, the referances I made to gay marriage in Canada came from a WP article. I can look for it for you to referance if you like. The MA law will be overturned, says conventional wisdom down here.
Lastly, IMHO, an observation: Americans NEED patriotic display. Seems to bind the country together-- for better or worse.
researchok said:
Trouble is, it IS in our backyard, Research; the whole world is, in a sense, the backyard of the seemingly omnipotent United States.
It is critically important for Americans, in their position of super-power, to live up to the great things they perceive themselves to be. The United States, in its unopposed position of power in the world, has the chance to do great and good things for the less fortunate nations of the world, but with the strange unhealthy dynamics of the people and the absolutely amoral government currently serving, this is not going to happen any time soon.
Haggis McBagpipe said:
Haggis, in a perfect world, you'd be right.
But we don't live in a perfect world- Americans are just like everyone else, perfect, flawed, concerned and indifferent.
It requires a fluid evolution-- from Americans.
All the while, everyone else is evolving as well. In other words, it's a dance.
No easy answers, I'm afraid.
researchok said:
Yes, it is true we do not live in a perfect world, and yes, change will always come from within, fueled, to a large degree, by an agenda other than that of world harmony/environmental concerns/etc..
However, Americans are particularly susceptible to world opinion, they crave to be seen as 'the good guy', ergo world opinion must be voiced loud and often. The growing negative world opinion is, in fact, partially why Americans are now questioning the Bush Administration.
True Haggis, what you said is true-- but there's a caveat here.
It's not only Americans that want to be perceived as 'good' or 'right'-- the same can be said for America's critics.
When you refer to Americans questioning their government-- I think that's more of a political knee jerk reaction, the Dems vs GOP. rather than a response to world opinion. Americans of all political stripes are notoriously self centered. They use world political opinion only as a tool.
Same thing happened under Clinton. Don't you just love politics?
It's not only Americans that want to be perceived as 'good' or 'right'-- the same can be said for America's critics.
When you refer to Americans questioning their government-- I think that's more of a political knee jerk reaction, the Dems vs GOP. rather than a response to world opinion. Americans of all political stripes are notoriously self centered. They use world political opinion only as a tool.
Same thing happened under Clinton. Don't you just love politics?
researchok said:
Good points, Research. I think, though, that because the world is so very much at the mercy of the whims of the United States, people must and will form strong opinions about that country. Beyond any desire to be perceived as 'good' or 'right' lies a very real concern about the dangers inherent of a United States hell-bent on a crusade to bring to the world a cheap and crippled version of the long-expired 'American Way of Life'.
researchok said:
In Quebec, not many are against Gay Marriages. Actually, very few. Any law passed against Homosexuals, will be ignored by the QC goverment. As civil law, is québecs juristiction.
Hey, Haggis!
In response to the article, What History taught, America forgot', I can say that I do believe Americans really did believe that the war would 'jump start' the democratic process in the region.
It certainly wasn't about oil-- All the US had to do was push for the lifting of sanctions to ensure a cheap supply source-- the US would have saved itself 200 plus billion dollars and the rest of the grief she now faces.
It does bear noting that the entire region is rejecting democracy. Those facts are long known and haven't changed.
Now, as for Americans fighting for freedom-- Yes, I belive they would. Regardless of political stripe, there is a deep patriotism that runs through the US, defending liberties irrespective of the priority the defenders place upon their importance.
In response to the article, What History taught, America forgot', I can say that I do believe Americans really did believe that the war would 'jump start' the democratic process in the region.
It certainly wasn't about oil-- All the US had to do was push for the lifting of sanctions to ensure a cheap supply source-- the US would have saved itself 200 plus billion dollars and the rest of the grief she now faces.
It does bear noting that the entire region is rejecting democracy. Those facts are long known and haven't changed.
Now, as for Americans fighting for freedom-- Yes, I belive they would. Regardless of political stripe, there is a deep patriotism that runs through the US, defending liberties irrespective of the priority the defenders place upon their importance.
researchok said:
I think that Americans have become armchair patriots. The patriotism that runs in their veins is a diluted version to the patriotism that made that country great. Americans have been numbed by many things; too many prescription drugs that control mood, too much television, too much junk food, and far too many dead-end jobs, and the list goes on.
The hope for a better future is what fuels true patriotism, and this sense of hope and dreams is now markedly absent in the US. Listen to the rhetoric, look around at the people: hope is no longer there, it has been replaced by a pig-headed insistence that all is well as it stands. You really can see it in the faces, look at the eyes, the curiosity is gone, the vigour, the energy. They'll shout, 'Freedom Fries!' because it is easy and someone gave them the lyrics, as it were, but challenge them on what it is to be American and they will either be unable to answer or they will cite traits and conditions long absent from the formula.
Haggis McBagpipe said:
I'm not so sure I agree with you, Haggis.
While there is no quantative way to measure these things, I do believe Americans would defend what they have.
While it's true there are many 'armchair patriots' as you point out, I think that rings true throughout the democratic world. In point of fact, we democracies don't have to worry about war as much as we used to-- democracies do not go to war against each other-- and our primary relationships are with democracies.
Nevertheless, I'd like to think that Canadians too, would defend their rights and freedoms, as would Englishmen, the French, Dutch, and everyone that enjoys the principlerd four freedoms.
At least that what I want to believe.
researchok said:
There is no question that this 'disease', for want of a better word, is prevalent throughout North America, however the Americans are the ones most at risk for having it. I do not believe the problem is as wide-spread in Europe.
I would like to believe in a strong people at the ready to defend freedom and all her charming sisters, but as with religion and the dying man, it seems a bit of a stretch. I look around and see people far too spoiled to ever be able to make a stand against anything except, perhaps, the cancellation of their favourite television series.
As I mentioned in another thread, North Americans are no longer capable of tolerating even the slightest inconvenience. However could they be expected to stand strong against an enemy, unless that enemy was prepared to battle only during commercial breaks?
Again, I tend to look at a bit differently than you do.
Pre WW2, a lot was made of the American isolationism-- that post depression America was too comfortable to risk another huge setback, Americans were only looking for creature comforts after being deprived, etc. That may have actually contributed to that isolationism.
Pearl Harbor changed all that, and the rest is history, as they say.
I'm not so sure only the Europeans would fight to defend themselves. Ithink we would as well.