Breaking News:4 Canadian Soldiers Killed in Afghanistan

cortezzz

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2006
663
0
16
i see your point

and beavers
and mine too

and i have nothing
--at this moment to add

so let us retire to our own thoughts then about this mad, violent depraved world
and think about all the people
being murdered right now--
soldiers and civilians
all over the world
including those 4 canadian kids
and try in our own way to understand
what it all really means
 

JonB2004

Council Member
Mar 10, 2006
1,188
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36
RE: Breaking News:4 Canad

Because the Conservatives decided they aren't going to put the flag at half mast anymore when a soldiers dies. I saw it on CBC Newsworld this morning.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
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Independent Palestine
As a soldier, this policy by the conservatives have kind of put me off, but November 11 is the day that Canadians remember dead peacekeepers, WW1 WW2 and Korean war veterans. So I guess Afghanistan should be on the list.

Still kind of sad though when the flag is lowered on other occasions but when a soldier dies, the flag is not lowered.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Wednesday's Child said:
Cortez

To me Beaver's post would have had more impact had he started a topic on his own about the death of the four Canadian military men. He has every right to say what he feels and to believe he can inform us of his reasons and perhaps anger at such a waste.

My argument is simply he chose the wrong place and time to do so.

Would you go to a funeral and in the midst of the ceremonies, stand up and deride the dead?

The topic we were addressing was to express our sorrow for their loss and for their family members - at least I thought that is why we were informed. It is customary is it not to express condolences or have we now gone past that humility of humanity in deference to all the people who now insult those who are sent into battle?

What is so mandatory about turning a silent moment of respect into yet another statement of "rights" which could not wait for a more appropriate time thus displaying the selfishness of a warthog ruining a birthday party.

Anything deriding the clear and simple plainsong of our messages of sympathy such as the validity and waste of giving up one's life, etc. is for another topic for another time.

My message to Beaver was:
Pick your appropriate arenas for making the point you wish - this thread was not a wise choice.

This is not a silent moment of respect as you put it, I did not deride the dead, and this is not a church nor a temple.
Read the thread heading, it does not say memorial for the dead.
This is the most appropriate thread to make ny point, and that is that those who glorify war are shit. The dead would agree with me one-hundred per-cent. What will you say when the truth about this dirty little campaign comes out. I'll bet nothing at all because you will have forgotten about these men totally and already have picked another bloody stupid conflict to glorify. :x
 

JonB2004

Council Member
Mar 10, 2006
1,188
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36
RE: Breaking News:4 Canad

What the Conservatives has done is really ticking me off. It makes me think that they don't have any respect for our military.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
This is not a silent moment of respect as you put it, I did not deride the dead, and this is not a church nor a temple.
Read the thread heading, it does not say memorial for the dead.
This is the most appropriate thread to make ny point, and that is that those who glorify war are shit. The dead would agree with me one-hundred per-cent. What will you say when the truth about this dirty little campaign comes out. I'll bet nothing at all because you will have forgotten about these men totally and already have picked another bloody stupid conflict to glorify.

I agree with your comment about people who glorify war, and don't go to war themselves. To a dead soldier it doesn't matter.

And Jon, they might not have any respect for the military, who knows, but with the military we are not-political in our business, all we hope for is money.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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Sassylassie said:
As per normal you need to sink to insults as a rebuttal Beaver, what would you know about the suffering of the Families of Military Members? They stand for Something, while you do Nothing but talk and talk and talk.

You spend your days Orating the Commie Mantra and all you post is someone elses ideals, why? Are you not capable of independant thoughts.

I'll will gladly show your posts, above, to as many Military Members as I can, I'm sure they will be delighted by your kindness and intelligence. If your lucky Beaver I may be able to get it printed in the local Military Papers.

P.S. Mogz if you read this thread print it and show your co-workers.

I post my own ideals, I am capable of indepentent thought and don't care what you do with my posts, and I'm damn sure you don't know SFA about what a military is or what its function is or what it stands for, you don't know why our military is in Afghanistan who sent them there or what there doing there and you never will. :x
 

Johnny Utah

Council Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,434
1
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Sassylassie said:
As per normal you need to sink to insults as a rebuttal Beaver, what would you know about the suffering of the Families of Military Members? They stand for Something, while you do Nothing but talk and talk and talk.

You spend your days Orating the Commie Mantra and all you post is someone elses ideals, why? Are you not capable of independant thoughts.

I'll will gladly show your posts, above, to as many Military Members as I can, I'm sure they will be delighted by your kindness and intelligence. If your lucky Beaver I may be able to get it printed in the local Military Papers.

P.S. Mogz if you read this thread print it and show your co-workers.
Beaver's post was tasteless however it's nothing compared to the disrespectful and tasteless thread Socrates started in Canadian Politics. The thread should be shown to Military Members. It was so disrspectful and tasteless I told Socrates where he can go! :evil:
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Don't drag the situation that has developed in that thread to another, Johnny Utah¹. There is no need to spread that sort of thing around the entirety of Canadian Content. I would respectfully request that you redirect whatever disagreement you may be encountering with Socrates the Greek in another forum, such as Wreck Beach.

:!: Revision : (1) Oops! Both your usernames start with "Jo--", I got confused. :D
 

Johnny Utah

Council Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,434
1
38
Re: RE: Breaking News:4 Canadian Soldiers Killed in Afghanis

FiveParadox said:
Don't drag the situation that has developed in that thread to another, Johnny Utah¹. There is no need to spread that sort of thing around the entirety of Canadian Content. I would respectfully request that you redirect whatever disagreement you may be encountering with Socrates the Greek in another forum, such as Wreck Beach.

:!: Revision : (1) Oops! Both your usernames start with "Jo--", I got confused. :D
:lol: :lol:
I'm the tall one. :D
 

Lineman

No sparks please
Feb 27, 2006
452
7
18
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Darkbeaver, you are a small person. To not restrain your usual drivel for even a couple of days in respect to the fallen and their families is truly disappointing and disturbing. I'm not against you having opinions and voicing them but there are plenty of other threads to do so or start your own, please show some civility.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
12,398
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Alberta
Lineman: Darkbeaver, you are a small person. To not restrain your usual drivel for even a couple of days in respect to the fallen and their families is truly disappointing and disturbing.

He can't help himself Lineman. I think this is how he gets his kicks. Anyway, he just discredits himself. Shameful as it is.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
As a Canadian soldier, Darkbeaver can have his own opinion. I believe he feels sorry for the soldiers that were killed. I don't think that is the question.

He believes though that Afghanistan is based on something entirely different than what the U.S and Canada says.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
647
0
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There are two perspectives here:

The Humanitarian perspective. Over 2 million refugees have returned to Afghanistan. The crisis for almost 1 million refugees in camps in western Afghanistan has been averted. Many Afghans were able to vote for first time and this includes women who had long been excluded from the public sphere. One only has to imagine how empowering casting this vote must have been for Afghans.

Canadian Soldiers have been an important part of the reconstruction and their effort should be recognized in this vein. Those who died should be recognized for the service they performed in the interests of humanity. This would be my position and I highly value the contribution the soldiers have made.

The political perspective. The critique here on the site is largely drawn from structural Marxism, a paradigm that leaves little room for human agency. There is no importance or significance for the votes cast by Afghans because they only served to elect a puppet regime. There is also no interest in the lives saved through the international intervention because the mission is only seen as part of a structural plot to reinforce existing global relationships. As structures are dominant there is also no interest in historical specificity and so the same general argument can be paraded around the world without contextual modification.

One can go through all the various problems in applying this form of structural analysis to Afghanistan, beginning with the rather obvious fact that the model has no relation to the type of society one finds in Afghanistan. The Soviets tried to introduce reforms and they and their occupation failed because they did not understand Afghanistan. What they thought was feudalism was in reality a variant Marx and Engels identified as an Asiatic mode. The Asiatic mode revolves around the redistribution of resources which need to be managed by an overlord because of their scarcity. If one ignores this history it is easy to see the mechanism of redistribution as corruption which is the rather ethnocentric critique offered here.

I don't think the structural view offered here on global politics is intellectually credible. It's basically a very diluted form of vulgar Marxism. The Canadian troops deserve better in the way of analysis.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
RE: Breaking News:4 Canad

Ugh, why is it that people on these forums seem to think they know everything?:

And why isn't our flag flying at half mast over the Parliment buildings in Ottawa??

Because the Conservatives decided they aren't going to put the flag at half mast anymore when a soldiers dies. I saw it on CBC Newsworld this morning.

As a soldier, this policy by the conservatives have kind of put me off, but November 11 is the day that Canadians remember dead peacekeepers, WW1 WW2 and Korean war veterans. So I guess Afghanistan should be on the list.

Still kind of sad though when the flag is lowered on other occasions but when a soldier dies, the flag is not lowered.

What the Conservatives has done is really ticking me off. It makes me think that they don't have any respect for our military.

The flag was NEVER suppose to fly at half-mast when a soldier is killed. The Liberal party, in all their ignorance, broke a tradition dating back over 50 YEARS. The reasons that flags do not fly at half mast for soldiers killed in action are as follows:

1. If excessive casualties are taken over a sustained period, the Maple Leaf would perpetually be at half mast. Flying a flag at half mast for an extended period is a sign of disrespect.

2. A soldier, when killed, is said to have made the ultimate sacrifice for his/her nation, and as such as earned themselves a special place in our society. In Canada we fly a flag at half-mast for people, not paladins (i'm not talking about DnD with your nerd friends paladins either).

3. Following World War II, it was decided that when a soldier was killed, the tradition of not lowering the flags would continue, except at the following locations:

i. At their parent base (i.e. CFB Edmonton)
ii. At their parent unit (i.e. 3 PPCLI)
iii. At their home town (i.e. Vancouver, and this is option to the city)

This lowering of a is not so much a sign of someone dying and therefore the location showing their respect. It is an announcement to everything that one of their own has been killed. For example, when Robert Costall was killed, the only flags at CFB Edmonton that were flying at 1/2 mast were the Base Flag and 1 VP's flag, the rest, were at full-mast.

4. Contrary to popular belief, a flag is not flown at half-mast on a whim. There are specific rules governing the flying of a flag at half-mast. They are as follows:

The Canadian Flag may be flown at half-mast starting on the day of the death (or the day the news is broken), until the day of the funeral, but is not to exceed 5 days.

Considering that soldiers are more often than not killed overseas, the repatriation of their bodies often takes MULTIPLE DAYS, and even more days following before the funeral. Considering this, it is impossible to accomodate both the repatriation process and the rules of flying a flag at half-mast. If you fly the flag longer, that is considered a sign of disrespect, something the Liberals did on a constant basis.

There you have it, why we don't flying flags at half-mast for dead soldiers. Bitch and moan all you want, but by doing so you prove your ignorance in regards to military tradition. I will say that I find it funny how you instantly blame the Conservatives, when in reality they're righting a wrong carried out by the ignorant and uncaring Liberal Government. Lastly, Jersay, i'm not sure what they're teaching rentals these days, but it's obviously not military etiquette. Might want to leaf through the QR and O's.

My two cents.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Mogz

Thank you - I was reading about that yesterday in the Canadian Military Protocol and the Flag Observances.

I started in because I wasn't certain if Canada defines "mast" and "staff" when discussing flags. Mast has always meant sea and staff meaning on land.... never did find my answer because I think Canadians use "mast" for everything.

Lots of things people don't pay much attention to - I still get stuck saying "21 gun salute" when most services fire off 7 guns 3 times.

Lots to learn.... Confused WC :roll: