Brain –> Consciousness , Consciousness –> Brain.

socratus

socratus
Dec 10, 2008
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www.worldnpa.org
Brain –> Consciousness , Consciousness –> Brain.
=.
Is consciousness a result of evolution or it is its fuel ?
#
‘ Contrary to what everyone knows it is so, it may
not be the brain that produce consciousness, but rather
consciousness that creates the appearance of the brain - . . . .’
/ Book ‘ The Holographic Universe’ page 160.
by Michael Talbot ./
=.
Isn’t it a strange contradiction ?
But maybe it means what brain obeys the ‘dualistic law’ :
Brain - –> Consciousness , Consciousness - –> Brain.
Who knows ?
=.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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I view consciousness and the brain as being mirrors of each other in the same way that convex and concave are just two sides of one reality.

If all phenomenons of conscious life are reduced to brain events that is materialistic reductionism. And if biological evolution is viewed as being ultimately guided by some sort of intangible consciousness I guess it's some form of spiritualism.

I have an intuitive tendency to choose spiritualism over materialism but I try more and more to find a balance between both by fusing them together.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Brain –> Consciousness , Consciousness –> Brain.
=.
Is consciousness a result of evolution or it is its fuel ?
#
‘ Contrary to what everyone knows it is so, it may
not be the brain that produce consciousness, but rather
consciousness that creates the appearance of the brain - . . . .’
/ Book ‘ The Holographic Universe’ page 160.
by Michael Talbot ./
=.
Isn’t it a strange contradiction ?
But maybe it means what brain obeys the ‘dualistic law’ :
Brain - –> Consciousness , Consciousness - –> Brain.
Who knows ?
=.


Consciousness is the organized universe. The bit of that consciousness being taxed thinking about its own consciousness must logically yield to the futility brought to bear by the nature of and scalability of consciousness. Nothing gets assembled without comprehensive schematics. "As above so below" was the rule. JAG just a guess
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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Consciousness is the organized universe. The bit of that consciousness being taxed thinking about its own consciousness must logically yield to the futility brought to bear by the nature of and scalability of consciousness. Nothing gets assembled without comprehensive schematics. "As above so below" was the rule. JAG just a guess
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And despite the hard logical science of materialists, in the end matter deconstructed to its extreme always ends up being represented as intangible and abstract equations. What are those made of? Mathons? Logicons?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
And despite the hard logical science of materialists, in the end matter deconstructed to its extreme always ends up being represented as intangible and abstract equations. What are those made of? Mathons? Logicons?

I think I am therefore I can't be
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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without all of the fancy explanations, I will give my simple response.

The brain developes along with the body, along with the electricity that makes us tick,
so it is our electricity that allows us to do 'anything', that spark that starts up our
engine and allows our brain to do its thing, allows our heart to beat.

Consciousness and many other aspects of our abilities come from the working of our brain, first.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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without all of the fancy explanations, I will give my simple response.

The brain developes along with the body, along with the electricity that makes us tick,
so it is our electricity that allows us to do 'anything', that spark that starts up our
engine and allows our brain to do its thing, allows our heart to beat.

Consciousness and many other aspects of our abilities come from the working of our brain, first.
The brain is a computer. It stores and accesses data. It can regurgitate data but it cannot have an original thought. Consciousness has a universal origin. It can access data from a universal source. That is why you may invent something in your head and do nothing to bring it into physical reality and months or years later, someone else brings it to the market place. Some cal this universal data base the Akashic (?) Records. Everything is connected.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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The brain is a computer. It stores and accesses data. It can regurgitate data but it cannot have an original thought. Consciousness has a universal origin. It can access data from a universal source. That is why you may invent something in your head and do nothing to bring it into physical reality and months or years later, someone else brings it to the market place. Some cal this universal data base the Akashic (?) Records. Everything is connected.

you cannot invent something in your head, without your brain allowing you to do so.

if your brain malfunctions, you cannot think of things, plan things, create thoughts to relay to others
at some point.

in my opinion, the brain does it all, then you decide from that point.

the energy needed to think comes from the brain, what you do with those thoughts also comes from the
brain.

I don't believe in outside energy controlling our thought process, other than what we respond to when
others interact, or what how we react to other energies, noises, agression, love, etc.

We can react to other's energy thru our electricity, which travels from one to another, and that
enters our brains and allows us to think about what just happened.
eg. knowing what my husband was just going to say before he said it.

I don't agree with anything spiritual interferring with our brain function, or creating us to
think of something outside of our brain function.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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without all of the fancy explanations, I will give my simple response.

The brain developes along with the body, along with the electricity that makes us tick,
so it is our electricity that allows us to do 'anything', that spark that starts up our
engine and allows our brain to do its thing, allows our heart to beat.

Consciousness and many other aspects of our abilities come from the working of our brain, first.

So would you agree to say that a computer as sophisticated as a human brain would also have consciousness?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Regina, SK
I don't see how anyone can think the brain and consciousness are separable, they're inextricably linked. Consciousness is a property that emerges in ways we don't yet understand from the complexity of the brain, as should be clear from the well documented fact that damage to the latter damages the former, and brain damage in specific places causes damage to specific aspects of consciousness. Consciousness is a property of the brain, it does not exist otherwise. We're a very long way from producing a computer as complex as the human brain, and I'm not convinced it's a useful comparison anyway, the brain is really very little like a computer. But if we ever do produce a computer with the same degree of complexity as a human brain, the first thing I'd want to ask it--I assume it would be capable of speech--is "Are you conscious?"

One of Robert Heinlein's novels in his Future History series--one of the Lazarus Long novels, don't recall the specific one--had a computer in it that somebody asked that of, and the machine gave a typically machine-like answer to the effect that insofar as it understood the term conscious it considered itself to be so. One of John Brunner's novels, Stand on Zanzibar, also has an apparently self-aware computer in it, called Shalmaneser. Good reads, both of them, though the latter's a bit hard to find. My copy was so tattered with use I wanted to replace it, and it took me two years to locate one at a used book shop.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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I don't see how anyone can think the brain and consciousness are separable, they're inextricably linked. Consciousness is a property that emerges in ways we don't yet understand from the complexity of the brain, as should be clear from the well documented fact that damage to the latter damages the former, and brain damage in specific places causes damage to specific aspects of consciousness.

And we don't even need to experience brain injuries to see how this is true. Our experiences with drugs (including alcohol, coffee and processed sugar) are sufficient to show us how the brain is inextricable to consciousness.

But if it's fair to say that altering the brain alters consciousness, isn't it also fair to say that altering consciousness alters the brain?

The fact that I read your post has already caused small but tangible changes somewhere in my brain and while you could argue that it all boils down to a materialistic causal chain in which photons enter my eyes, patterns of letters are imprinted on my retina and electro-chemical signals are fired through the incredibly complex neuronal networks responsible for managing my linguistic abilities, you'd be ignoring the fact that beyond those material realities, there is a core of meaning that you as a human subject has communicated to me and all others who are reading this thread. Furthermore, these thoughts we are exchanging are nested in a cultural network which transcends matter in the sense that it encompasses not only the present but humanity's past as a whole. We are what we are as conscious beings because of what we share with billions of other conscious beings (living and dead in the sense that the dead have had a huge impact on our own culture.)

The point being... Does it make sense to reduce this human discussion to the wild and crazy dance of atoms in our brains? Isn't there a good deal of immaterial stuff (like poems, stories and philosophical concepts) out there constantly impacting the structure of our brains?

Consciousness is a property of the brain, it does not exist otherwise.

Materialism reduces the subject to the object while it seems to me that one cannot go without the other.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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So would you agree to say that a computer as sophisticated as a human brain would also have consciousness?

as amazing as man is in their quest to improve computers, and they have, to the point that they are
becoming so humanlike, but to this point their is no way they have figured out how to complete the
computer brain to have emotions, feelings, and consciousness as ours have, 'good luck with that'.
our brains have all of those things, built in to allow us to feel things no computer has ever come
close to doing, won't say they never will, that would be foolish, but if they do, then the computer
will match ours, and yes it will have consciousness, as ours does.
I use to laugh at captain kirk with his silly little phone he used to chat into, to the enterprise,
when he was elsewhere, cause those gimmicks seemed far too unrealistic to ever be in our hands, say
no more.

the brain can function just fine 'without' consciousness, feelings, remorse, love, etc., although

that person would probably be in jail or some other institution, BUT one cannot have those feelings

without a brain running the show.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
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Regina, SK
But if it's fair to say that altering the brain alters consciousness, isn't it also fair to say that altering consciousness alters the brain?
No, I wouldn't agree with that, I'd argue you can't separate them that way. Consciousness arises in the brain, the change has to happen in the brain first to produce a change in consciousness.
The point being... Does it make sense to reduce this human discussion to the wild and crazy dance of atoms in our brains?
It does to me, though I wouldn't describe it as wild and crazy. I'm a materialist, which means I think matter and its interactions are the fundamental reality and everything is explicable, at least in principle, in terms of complex and subtle interactions among various bits of matter. We may not be bright enough to figure them all out, but there's no evidence to suggest that what we call "mind" is anything other than that.
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
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What is our consciousness? It is to be conscious of, to be aware of, what is going on, not only outside but inside; it is the same movement. Our consciousness is the product of our education, our culture, racial inheritance and the result of our own striving. All our beliefs, our dogmas, rituals, concepts, jealousies, anxieties, pleasures, our so-called love - all that is our consciousness. It is the structure which has evolved through millennia after millennia - through wars, tears, sorrow, depression and elation: all that makes up our consciousness. Some people say you cannot change consciousness. You can modify it, you can polish it, but you have to accept it, make the best of it; it is there. Without the content, consciousness, as we know it, does not exist.
Is it possible to empty consciousness of all content - the sorrow, the strife, the struggle, the terrible human relationships, the quarrels, anxieties, jealousies, the affection, the sensuality? Can that content be emptied? If it is emptied, is there a different kind of consciousness? Has consciousness different layers, different levels?
In India the Ancient people divided consciousness into lower, higher and yet higher. And these divisions are measured, for the moment there is division there must be measurement, and where there is measurement there must be effort. Whatever level consciousness may have, it is still within consciousness. The division of consciousness is measurement, therefore it is thought. Whatever thought has put together is part of consciousness, however you choose to divide it.
Is it possible to empty the content of consciousness completely, The essence of this content is thought, which has put together the `me' - the `me' who is ambitious, greedy, aggressive. That `me' is the essence of the content of consciousness. Can that `me' with all this structure of selfishness be totally ended? If I can can say, "Yes, it can be ended, completely". It means that there is no centre from which you are acting, no centre from which you are thinking. The centre is the essence of measurement, which is the effort of becoming. Can that becoming end? One may say: "Probably it can, but what is at the end of it, if one ends this becoming?"
First of all one has to find out for oneself if this becoming can end. Can you drop, end, something which you like, that gives you some deep pleasure, without a motive, without saying, "I can do it if there is something at the end of it"? Can you immediately end something that gives you great pleasure? You see how difficult this is. It is like a man who smokes, his body has been poisoned by nicotine and when he stops smoking the body craves for it and so he takes something else to satisfy the body. So can one end something, rationally, clearly, without any motive of reward or punishment?
Selfishness hides in many ways, in seeking truth, in social service, in selling oneself to a person, to an idea, to a concept. One must be astonishingly aware of all this, and that requires energy, all the energy that is now being wasted in conflict, in fear, in sorrow, in all the travails of life. That energy is also being wasted in so-called meditation.
It requires enormous energy, not physical energy, but the energy that has never been wasted. Then consciousness can be emptied and when it is emptied one may or may not find there is something more, it is up to oneself. One may like something more to be guaranteed but there is no guarantee .

JK ...."the space cadet".