Back to the SCoC - Any bets- Ontario court orders woman to remove veil to testify

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Back to the SCoC- Ontario court orders woman to remove veil to testify.

Perhaps this time the SCoC will understand the basics. The right to face your accuser. Yes there are exceptions for children from what I understand and rightly so.

This case has also exceeded the guideline for a trial within a reasonable period- Also ruled upon years ago by the SCoC. What a mess.

After Supreme Court decision, Ontario court orders woman to remove veil to testify - The Globe and Mail

An Ontario judge has ruled that a woman must remove her face-covering veil to testify against the men she is accusing of sexual assault.

The judge says the woman’s niqab “masks her demeanour and blocks both effective cross-examination by counsel for the accused and assessment of her credibility by the trier of fact.”

The 37-year-old woman, known only as N.S., alleges two men sexually assaulted her over five years, starting when she was six years old.

The question of whether she should be allowed to testify in the case while wearing her niqab went all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada, which issued a split decision but set out a test for judges to decide in individual cases.

The case is now back in provincial court for the preliminary inquiry, five years after the challenge began, and Judge Norris Weisman ruled that the woman must remove her veil to testify at the hearing.

Weisman noted that he had to balance her religious freedom with the accused men’s right to a fair trial, but in the end he was concerned that her face covering would hinder assessment of her credibility, possibly resulting in wrongful convictions.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Forcing a woman who is accusing people of having sexually assaulted her, to take off the clothing she feels protect her modesty, is an outrageous affront to personal security.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Forcing a woman who is accusing people of having sexually assaulted her, to take off the clothing she feels protect her modesty, is an outrageous affront to personal security.
LOL...

The judge says the woman’s niqab “masks her demeanour and blocks both effective cross-examination by counsel for the accused and assessment of her credibility by the trier of fact.”

The Judge is right.

If she was a Catholic nun, I wonder if they'd force her to remove her wimple.
You can't actually be that stupid.

Here, since you obviously missed it in the OP...

An Ontario judge has ruled that a woman must remove her face-covering veil to testify against the men she is accusing of sexual assault.

A wimple...



A veiled niqab...

 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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It should be remembered the veil is not part of the religion it is custom and we cannot
start providing for all customs to be recognized. If a non Muslim Woman is to represent
herself before the court then of course a Muslim woman is no better and no worse than
anyone else. Comparing a nun to a Muslim woman is not a legitimate comparison the
nun does not cover her face.
We have to start going by the law of the land. I recognize that at present religious regalia
is a right at the moment. I think all groups in society should have one law and the church
law would be within the church. In society we should all be treated the same.
Again the veil is not part of the religion it is custom and there in lies the difference.
 

Goober

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Forcing a woman who is accusing people of having sexually assaulted her, to take off the clothing she feels protect her modesty, is an outrageous affront to personal security.

Do we not judge people by the facial movements when testifying- Yes - Facing your accuser is a basic fundamental of the Justice system.
The judge originally offered the lady various choices in an attempt to accommodate her.

And within the Muslim community there is a divide.

Welcome to the Muslim Canadian Congress

Hijab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hijab by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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If she was a Catholic nun, I wonder if they'd force her to remove her wimple.
no they would not force her to remove her wimple...and it isn't because they are pro Catholic and anti Muslim, as you imply here. The head cover is not an issue, the face cover is.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I don't know if Canadian law gives a person the right to "face" his accuser, but U.S. law doesn't.

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Do we not judge people by the facial movements when testifying- Yes - Facing your accuser is a basic fundamental of the Justice system.
The judge originally offered the lady various choices in an attempt to accommodate her.

I'd hate to be the person who's testifying after a stroke, or with a facial tick, or with nerves so bad that you can't face the crowded room.

We listen and judge truth by much more than facial movements. Advising her that it could hurt her credibility seems sufficient, no?
 

Goober

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I don't know if Canadian law gives a person the right to "face" his accuser, but U.S. law doesn't.

Ahem

Right to Face Accuser Clarified

Confrontation Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right…to be confronted with the witnesses against him." Generally, the right is to have a face-to-face confrontation with witnesses who are offering testimonial evidence against the accused in the form of cross-examination during a trial. The Fourteenth Amendment makes the right to confrontation applicable to the states and not just the federal government.[1] The right only applies to criminal prosecutions, not civil cases or other proceedings.

The Confrontation Clause has its roots in both English common law, protecting the right of cross-examination, and Roman law, which guaranteed persons accused of a crime the right to look their accusers in the eye. In noting the right's long history, the United States Supreme Court has cited Acts of the Apostles 25:16, which reports the Roman governor Porcius Festus, discussing the proper treatment of his prisoner Paul: "It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man up to die before the accused has met his accusers face-to-face, and has been given a chance to defend himself against the charges." It has also cited Shakespeare's Richard II, Blackstone's treatise, and statutes.[2]
 

Durry

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May 18, 2010
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All face coverings should be banned in any government institution providing a service to the public !!

Isn't this what they have in France?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Nothing on my Ahem....................

Did you read the rest of the article?

It's a pretty fair technical discussion of the right of cross-examination. So you pull one ambiguous phrase out of context and pretend it makes your case.

OK, goobs, let's get to it. You apparently think you know from a person's face when she's lying. How do you tell? If she refuses to meet the eyes of the jury or the attorneys, and is hesitant about answering, are those clues she is lying?

Or are they clues she's mortified and ashamed of having strange men see her face for the first time in a quarter of a century?
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
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The law should be the same for all as far as face covering goes.

Imagine the kerfuffle if the great leader had to testify vs. the corruption charges which will eventually karma the prick, and put on a halloween mask.

"How oh how do we knows it's you , great Harpo" ??

" Cuz I says it is, peasant piss ant."

Oh well, ok then, that clears that up. - keep the mask.
 

Goober

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Did you read the rest of the article?

It's a pretty fair technical discussion of the right of cross-examination. So you pull one ambiguous phrase out of context and pretend it makes your case.

OK, goobs, let's get to it. You apparently think you know from a person's face when she's lying. How do you tell? If she refuses to meet the eyes of the jury or the attorneys, and is hesitant about answering, are those clues she is lying?

Or are they clues she's mortified and ashamed of having strange men see her face for the first time in a quarter of a century?

The face is just one aspect.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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So you pull one ambiguous phrase out of context and pretend it makes your case.
There's a lot more out there, but you're to afraid of me to reply to me, lol.

OYou apparently think you know from a person's face when she's lying.
There's a whole science that pertains to that.

Or are they clues she's mortified and ashamed of having strange men see her face for the first time in a quarter of a century?
Is that even her?