Anti-Canadianism and more.....

[Andem]

Re: RE: Anti-Canadianism and

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As for where Arafat is from...need I remind you that most of our founding fathers were British or that the British monarchy spoke German until quite recently?

If a leader's pedigree is an issue, then Arnie should not be Govermor of California and Tommy Douglas should never have been allowed into politics.

C'mon Rev, that's just nonsensical obfuscation. It's not even a fallacy of equivocation because there's not even equivocation. Does Arnie claim that his forefathers lived in California since Biblical times? If Arafat ran for President of Israel and was duly elected then I'd say all the power to 'im.

But what about Sharon who was only elected by one select group? Non-jews for the most part, are not allowed to vote as they are not citizens of this so-callled "jewish state". If all of the inhabitants of the land were given voting rights, I would be able to agree more with the existance of the Israeli state.. But since they are two very segregated (sp?) groups, it's not democratic and there will always be tensions in the region.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Anti-Canadianism and

Non-jews for the most part, are not allowed to vote as they are not citizens of this so-callled "jewish state". If all of the inhabitants of the land were given voting rights, I would be able to agree more with the existance of the Israeli state.. But since they are two very segregated (sp?) groups, it's not democratic and there will always be tensions in the region.

It's my understanding that all citizens of Israel are allowed to vote. Do you expect foreigners to be allowed to vote? In fact, Israel is the only state, as far as I know, in the ME where Arab women ARE allowed to vote. Only exception being Iran, but Iran doesn't really have a free vote anyway. :wink:

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Anti-Canadianism and

They don't want Israel though, they want Palestine. That includes not just a separate state, but free passage from the West Bank to Gaza and a say in their long-standing religious monuments even if those monumnets are outside of their land.

As for where Arafat is from...need I remind you that most of our founding fathers were British or that the British monarchy spoke German until quite recently?

If a leader's pedigree is an issue, then Arnie should not be Govermor of California and Tommy Douglas should never have been allowed into politics.

And before speaking German, they spoke French. And we're quite pourd of it. During the hundred year war, the English kings considered themselves frenchmen.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Please. The British hadn't left the area more than 5 minutes before a ship of muslims arrived on the horizon to start killing the Jews. They never tried living in peace with the Jews.

False. This is a pure generalisation. Many Muslims were actually employed in the new Jewish settlements which arose with the first aliyah (around 1880), and if Muslims are not able to live alongside Jews, just take a look in Haifa, or other towns and villages in Israel with a large Muslim population. I do not deny however that there have been many occasions in which "Muslims" killed "Jews" (starting with the Arab uprising 1922; in 1929, the Jewish community of Hebron was massacred, to give one example); but that same could be said of "Jews" killing "Muslims" (Ergun, Stern, Haggadah, Palmach - Zionist organisations which would nobody fall under the definition of "terrorist groups").

Rick, I'm failing to see your point. Are you asking if the people of European decent can claim the US as their homeland??

Well, actually all Americans who are not part of the Native population ("Indians"). You claim that the Jews can claim Israel on the grounds of ancient history. Using the same rhetoric, would that not just mean that the Native Americans can claim both the US and Canada?

They were encouraged to leave of their own volition by the Arab armies who feared for them getting caught in the crossfire as they "pushed the Jews into the sea". Contrast this with the Millions of Jews who had to flee Arab countries.

Not quite true. During the Independence War, it was expected by the Israeli leadership that many Palestinian Arabs would flee Palestine out of own motivation. That didn't happen. What followed were - in many cases - forced expulsions, like the expulsion of 60,000 Arabs from Ramle and Lydda in July 1948 by the IDF. I do have to say that you are right about the "millions" (well it were actually about 800,000 - 850,000, but that's not important) of Jews who were expelled from the Arab countries, and who still have not recieved any recognition by their homecountries (with the prominent exception of Libya) nor have gotten any compensation for their possessions which were left behind.

 

[Reverend Blair]

C'mon Rev, that's just nonsensical obfuscation.

No, trying to say that Arafat is not a legitimate leader of Palestine because he was born in Egypt is nonsensical obfuscation. Whatever myth he has built up around himself has nothing to do with it.

 

[Just the Facts]

No, trying to say that Arafat is not a legitimate leader of Palestine because he was born in Egypt is nonsensical obfuscation.

If anybody says Arafat is not a legitimate leader of Palestine I will join you in proving them wrong!

 

[Just the Facts]

would that not just mean that the Native Americans can claim both the US and Canada?

I would be very much in favour of Native sovereignty. It would be unrealistic to say that all of North America could be returned to Natives, but certainly some sort of partition can be worked out.

:idea: All we would have to do is honour the treaties. :idea:

No one seems to be confronting Quebec's right to separate, so I see no reason why Natives can't have their own nations if they choose to as well.

What followed were - in many cases - forced expulsions, like the expulsion of 60,000 Arabs from Ramle and Lydda in July 1948 by the IDF.

Thanks, I did not know that.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I would be very much in favour of Native sovereignty. It would be unrealistic to say that all of North America could be returned to Natives, but certainly some sort of partition can be worked out.

Idea All we would have to do is honour the treaties. Idea

No one seems to be confronting Quebec's right to separate, so I see no reason why Natives can't have their own nations if they choose to as well.

First Nations sovereignty wouldn't really be a separation. The broad model (and there are huge generalisations, here...keep that in mind) is a separate level of government with powers someplace between the federal and provincial governments, but with a mandate stretching from municipal concerns all the way up to the level of international treaties.

The provinces, most specifically but certainly not only, are very much opposed to any such level of government operating within their borders. The federal government is still trying to find a way to keep any powers approaching its own level of authority for themselves, and cities with high native populations are freaking out about what will happen to their tax base if native are paying tax to a native authority instead.

For their part, the natives are very much divided on what form such an agreement should take and which issues are negotiable and which aren't.

I think great strides have been made in recent years and that things will accelerate from here. Cities and provinces with high native populations are beginning to face the fact that they no longer have a choice but to deal with the issues, and all levels of government have faced court challenges. The United Nations and various human rights groups (most recently Amnesty International) have taken stands on native issues.

Over the ten years or so we are going to see a lot of concrete changes. It's going to be an interesting show to watch.

 

[jamie]

"Native Americans can claim both the US and Canada? " posted by Rick.

-sure, Rick, I win either way. lmao

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

That's not an answer to my initial question jamie.