An Angle Straight to Hell.

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
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Hmmm...part of the noble class...the religious elite in a broad sense of the term. Which again implies a subservient society.

You say that you want back up and yet GJT you have not really proven your point. I've given you quotes from books...if you want I can back it up with websites.

The old Celtic system has often been referred to as "communism's" twin, although yes, it has "classes"

The difference is, these "classes" were based solely on intelligence and ability, and not wealth once so ever. One in high class, did not live significantly differently than any other class. In some ways, it also resembled a direct democracy. It was about respect based on how much knowledge that person had. That is sort of what I mean when I point out meritocracy should not be thought of as purely financial gain.

Also, there is no actual literature from the celtic druids to verify either of our claims. Any "book" you may have read is based on the bias writings of people who encountered the druids such as the Romans, and is also based on Irish lore.

Furthermore, if I did in your opinion ,misinterpret the exact type of government an ancient civilization which I was never able to experience first hand, then why waste time arguing about it? .. It's a label. It doesn't really effect the main point here at all. Many of you have misinterpreted the term "communism" as what the Russians had, and really, it has not proved useful at all when I pointed it out and even explained it.
 

zenfisher

House Member
Sep 12, 2004
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No...You are completely content soaking up the sun on a beach. Its a beautiful day. You have all the time in the world. At some point you get hungry.
Realizing that all you have is your trunks, your beach towel and anything you can find on the beach...You have a couple of options.

You can try and collect whatever food you can find on the beach...crabs, clams,fruit, berries, seaweed, et al.

You could try to fashion a net or fishing rod and try and catch something out of the sea. Or you might even try to catch a fish with your bare hands.

You could collect shells and try and hock them at the local market. You could get creative and fashion some kind of jewelry or trinkets out of things you've found on the beach. You could fashion something out of driftwood. All to be sold or traded at the local market, in exchange for food.

At the point you were free, you were lying on the beach, soaking up the sun,listening to the sound of the surf. It was not permanent. At some point you had to eat. To eat you had to disrupt the freedom in order to earn it. Sure after you have eaten you can go back to the beach, but the time will come again when you have to stop being free and go and earn your freedom. That is why your never really free. You can get moments of freedom, but you are never able to go without earning the freedom. That's also why it is neither a right or left proposition.
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
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Here, you might like this, but can we try to get back on topic?

"visualize a blanket of white fire surrounding you, starting at your feet and working its way up to encompass your whole body. Hold this visualization until you can actually feel the fire surrounding you, cleansing your spirit and not letting any darkness penetrate your being. Now visualize your hands held outward from your body and let a globe of white fire come into being between your hands. Hold the globe there until you can feel it. This globe of fire represents your inner strength and the longer you hold it the more in touch with your strength you will be. The result of this is that you will feel empowered and more able to cope with the challenges of your life."
 

zenfisher

House Member
Sep 12, 2004
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No...not a yoga instructor. I was merely making a point.

Even the cavepeople knew...you play with fire you're gonna get burned.

I don't think I mentioned Russian communism once. I was refering to the nature of communal societies. You will always need a leader of any society. You need someone to unite the people. To set a fire under them if you will. Someone to provide direction. That's where the problem enters. You have elevated someone above the rest. When that happens it is not an equal society anymore. Once you lose the equal society it degenerates.

Don't get me wrong here...the same will happen with capitalistic societies. They will degenerate it corporate governing bodies. Welcome to the US of Pepsico.

Both systems are seriously flawed. One driven by corporate greed ...the other not realizing that greed is part of the survival instinct built into all of us. Which dooms it to corruption.

You should really read a Prisoner of Mao. ...I can't remember the authors name...google it. You can actually understand how brainwashing and propaganda from both sides, left and right, is used to manipulate us.
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
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You need someone to unite the people. To set a fire under them if you will. Someone to provide direction. That's where the problem enters. You have elevated someone above the rest. When that happens it is not an equal society anymore. Once you lose the equal society it degenerates

If that person is "elevated" only in terms of respect because of his passion and selfless desire to benefit mankind, yet not financially, or any other way, then he is not above the rest. He would be like volunteer soccer coach.

He must not ever except opporuntities for personal wealth because of his position. He must show leadership through example and live by all the ideas he wants common. That's why it is imperative for it be one who grew up in the lower working classes, yet have above average intelligence (by an international standard). Not an iq test type of intelligence, but must have superior insight. One with extreme unselfish passion for the cause and determinatoin to acheive it peacefully. One Who's parents were not wealthy, and understands the proletariat.

That is one reason why I beleive in free University education for all people.

That person would be nothing more than a motivator. Someone to turn to for knowledge, and someone to share knowledge with. Someone you can trust, and when the people have spoken, and all of society is theirs, he must step down from what was never really a "place of power" anyway, and become one of them. He must work a job the same as anyone else and have no problem doing so, nor should he live a superior quality life in any way shape or form. He must make this known from the very beginning that these are his intentions , and must make it formal by something binding. Perhaps he is willing to die at the end of it if the movement succeeds, and will declare that ahead of time and make it binding, thus, "power" going to him is not an issue. People with such passion exist, I assure you. It is not impossible for such a person to exist, and as the movement grows, and others share that level of passion, it will no longer be about one leader, it will be about the proletariat as the leader. That's the way it must be, and that's were it has went wrong in the past. We must learn from the mistakes that past generations made trying to implement socialism.

rather than trying to fundamentally change the very nature of the country we live in

Actually, that is what Capitalism is. Constantly trying to change the nature of the Country we live in. Constantly trying to get richer, and more powerful, thinking of ourselves first, and the needy and those in poverty last.

When a capitalistic Nation is a super power, the entire world is influenced. The very system that controls and influences us as we speak is defined by the very thing you said is reason for someone to be virtually exported out of Canada.

Interesting ...

Capitalism, no longer has a progressive message to humanity. It has ceased to take an interest in what is best for society as a whole, and continues to insist on its old message: whatever is good for capital is good for society, because only capital turns the wheels of production and produces a living for humankind. This ridiculous argument follows the "logic" of a slave owner justifying himself as the one who feeds his slaves.
 

Chake99

Nominee Member
Mar 26, 2005
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That is what unhindered capitalism is and what it does.

The point of the government is to make it so that when someone tries to get rich they help everyone around them by providing services to them.

So that when one thinks about oneself one is actually helping others, whether it is paying taxes to rehabilitate people into society and avoid fines, or to not steal to avoid jail-time.

There is nothing wrong with captilalism permitted there is enough government control, the problem arises when entities interested solely in profit are given the reins.


No one is arguing that a system with a brilliant person at the top isn't the most efficient way a country to be run; Marcus Aurelius for example was a great Roman Emperor.

However if anyone who is corruptable gets into that spot we are all royally screwed. And chances are that it will only be people who are corruptable who will be attracted to that spot.
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
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No one is arguing that a system with a brilliant person at the top isn't the most efficient way a country to be run; Marcus Aurelius for example was a great Roman Emperor

I am not proposing a dictatorship controlled by an individual by any means, but instead a self governing dictatorship controlled by the lower working class collectively.
 

zenfisher

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Sep 12, 2004
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[quote="Gordon J Torture]
If that person is "elevated" only in terms of respect because of his passion and selfless desire to benefit mankind, yet not financially, or any other way, then he is not above the rest. He would be like volunteer soccer coach.

He must not ever except opporuntities for personal wealth because of his position. He must show leadership through example and live by all the ideas he wants common. That's why it is imperative for it be one who grew up in the lower working classes, yet have above average intelligence (by an international standard). Not an iq test type of intelligence, but must have superior insight. One with extreme unselfish passion for the cause and determinatoin to acheive it peacefully. One Who's parents were not wealthy, and understands the proletariat.
[/quote]

Hmmm...so now you are elevating people above society based on intelligence and social position. It doesn't really make it an equal society then. Its a very idealistic society, but a little bit unfair.

How do you determine the fairness in work? If we all have our doctorate in philosophy or medicine,et al. Who's going to do the real physical labour? Who's going to work the waste treatment plants? Who's going to build the roads? Who's going to do the grunt work? Who's going to farm? Who's going to work the assembly lines? What would be the point of advancing through seven years of university, with a major in engineering, to end up working in a clothing factory? How is that fair ?

What about the other possibility ? 90% of your population decides they want to become medical doctors . That leaves 10% of your population to do alll the road building, construction, education, and the meriad of all the things that go into keeping a society running.

Of the two systems I see more chance for freedom in a capitalist system. Its far from perfect... Is a large percentage of the time completely unfair...but it still gives you a better shot at achieving those few rare moments of true freedom.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Who's going to farm?

I will. I want a tractor without a cab though. Actually I want a 1966 Deutz that you have to roll down a hill to start. Did you know that the toolbox on 1966 Deutz holds exactly 12 beer and one bag of ice?
 

zenfisher

House Member
Sep 12, 2004
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Your a font of info Rev. Except I've seen you drink beer. and I know only ten would make it into the tool box. The other two would have been drunk filling the box.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
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Winnipeg
RE: An Angle Straight to

Yeah, but in Saskatchewan you can buy three in a bag...1 for the trip back to the farm, 2 for whilst you're filling the box, and that whole dozen is left to pass the time while summer fallowing.
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
0
16
Hmmm...so now you are elevating people above society based on intelligence and social position. It doesn't really make it an equal society then. Its a very idealistic society, but a little bit unfair.

Nope, no one is "elevated" above society based on intelligence. Infact, the position of a person who must lead the people through a revolution and resist any temptation to acquire individual control, would be a positition of necessary burden rather than an "elevation".


How do you determine the fairness in work? If we all have our doctorate in philosophy or medicine,et al. Who's going to do the real physical labour? Who's going to work the waste treatment plants?

Are you implying that those who work in the waste treatment plants currently do so because they are forced to due to circumstance? Are you implying such people are not worthy of an education because that would deter them from their labor that noone else would be willing to do and this system is imperative?

Educating all the people would not result in lack of people doing any labor jobs. It would only result in one's family he was born into, being far less likely of dictating the probability of either labor or otherwise, for his future, in every way other than possibly a common area of interest. It would also result in the people being far less likely to be manipulated.
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
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I mean, hell, by your logic why is it virtually mandatory to even finish high-school? ... One could learn how to farm from his family and never need high-school right?

The reason why highschool is the current level of mandatory educatoin is because it is the minimum level of actual knowledge the average person needs in order to successfully perform and learn the job of a labourer in any setting which he finishes at an age when he is physically able to perform the duties of any labor job. It enables him to work as a laborer but prevents him from anything else, and allows him to easily be manipulated and controlled by the government. Also, most high-schools do not teach very much about politics. I wonder why?

Think about it ... Why does it stop there? .. Why not grade 8? .. Why not go to grade 16?

There is a reason, it is calculated and limited for a reason.