America's Inadequate Healthcare

[SaintLucifer]

Re: RE: America's Inadequate Healthcare

I also hadn't heard of people declaring bankruptcy due to medical expenses until I moved here.

if the US president would take care of their own instead of declaring wars for no reasons and spending the US taxes money on war supplies they would have medicare US citizens ask for it

I am amazed when the U.S.A. talks about our 'socialised' health-care system being a giant bureaucracy which indeed it is. What I find amazing is that Americans do not realise their own medicare bureaucracy is far larger than our own and it is 'socialist'. The U.S.A. in fact has a larger socialist medicare program than we here in Canada do which is why I am puzzled when they yap about socialised healthcare. Medicare is far larger than Canada's entire healt-care system. It serves at least 40 million Americans compared to Canada's which serves a population of 31 million. The fact our health-care system is almost always bankrupt proves it would never work in the U.S.A. with its 300 million + population. As it stands, the U.S. health-care system employs the world's most-advanced technology and this is a fact. They have equipment many nations could only dream of having which includes Canada. Compared to the U.S.A. Canada is bereft of MRI scanners. There are more MRIs in Buffalo alone than there are in all of Canada. This is the sad state of our health-care system.

I live in our province of Ontario. Not only do my taxes pay for OHIP but I am forced through my paycheques to pay for a medical 'surcharge' of almost $35 per month. This means I am paying for the same medical coverage twice. Why am I forced to pay a surcharge for a service I have already paid for? Not only that but I pay my taxes and a surcharge for a health-care system that has a plan (OHIP) which has delisted many services. This means coverage that I used to have I now must pay for on my own. This would make it 3 times I pay for the same service! I am astonished at this blatant robbery and inefficiency! Give me the American system any day.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: America's Inadequate

well..."technically", I hate to admit it Saintlucifer, but that's what it is, every communist country has or used to hve a national healthcare system, and I know the british Labour government that created the "cradle to the grave" system were Heavy socialists.

It is a socialist system, although I agree with my old Yankee tour guide "disbanding an empire while creating a free national health system is a. either madness or b. shows that Britain was lot more wealthy than it initially claimed"..I would suggest the idea was the brainchild of a few inspired socialists, but it was killing the country by the 70's so Yes...I appreciate it, I'm proud of it, BUT....YES I will admit it is a Socialist's dreamchild

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: America's Inadequate

SaintLucifier, but isnt Ontario virtually a US provence anyway

Thats shocking though, I mean my pay packet has 2 taxes on it, Income Tax and National Insurance...thats it...well I say that's it but it's a good 12% of my wages.

 

[Kreskin]

This is off topic, but is an example of what things look like when ideas aren't paraded around as communist programs. Bush was trying to re-create the Social Security system like it was a new idea when in fact the Canada Pension Plan has operated exactly the way Bush proposed. Our CPP has about 100 billion in diversifed investments. We invested collectively into our pension plan for years. Now the US conservatives want to borrow to create the same thing (no one mentioning Canada's system as the model it aspires to become).

It all depends how you dress these kind of arguments up.

 

[Toro]

RE: America's Inadequate

Daz

In some places of Cuba, they have a hard time getting aspirin because the government has little hard currency to spare.

And that 40 million includes many who are on medicaid, medicare and students

 

[tracy]

That 40 million includes those who qualify for medicaid? Any sources to that?

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: America's Inadequate

All true Toro, and I wouldnt claim to know a lot about Cuban healthcare myself, It's just regularly quoted over here, I just do not agree with Private Health Care, thats just me, or perhaps my country.......I just feel that, as stated before, that you pay your taxes for fire and police protection, why not for services such as healthcare?. I know it costs a lot, but isnt a nation judged by how it treats the poorest in society?

 

[I think not]

Actually the old saying goes you judge a nation by how they treat women in their society. So how does the US treats its poor that's any different from anybody else?

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: America's Inadequate

oh dear, it wasnt a slight at the US ITN, calm down, it was just an opinion from someone who has known nothing else than a welfare state and is thankful to have one...

And I actually think it goes "a society is judged by how it treat's it's prisoners" but you can use it anyway you like...but honestly, I wasnt trying to insult the US, I just feel Healthcare is a basic human right, just like protection from fire or theft...and poor spelling, so I just feel every country should include it as a utility tax of somekind, I know it would cost a lot, but thats just my opinion

 

[I think not]

Daz

I'll let you in on a little secret, I stayed out of this debate for one reason and one reason only, it's a flame thread.

I can sit here and tell you, your NHS is in shambles, in fact your Minister of Health resigned earlier this year because the NHS is falling apart. I can also tell you that your infrastructure is falling apart, only major cities in the UK enjoy a level of "quality" care.

I can also tell you that in Canada, someone bitching in Ontario, that can't see a specialist for 9 months, is inconceivable in an area in BC, perhaps. I can also say that Canada has fallen 15 years behind in technology regarding health care.

Now I can pat myself on the back, and say we have the best doctors, the best technology, the best nurses anywhere in the world. Perhaps. But not everybody can afford it.

The end result is that all forms of health care delivery have flaws, none of which are minor, they range from waiting times, to oudated technology to not being able to afford it.

Now, in the US, the poor have government insurance, so if that's the oinly indicator of judging a nation, then I would venture to say we score rather well.

I will say what Toro said, I have health insurance, I can go where I want when I want and the issue with "co-pays" which some make it sound like your giving your right hand, is in effect $5 for medication and $10 for specialist visit. If I were to get sick (god forbid), I would rather get sick in the US, simply because I have needed medical attention and I have not been dissapointed.

In the end, they all have flaws and they all suck, pointing fingers serves no purpose other than politicking, which with health care, should never be the case.

And that's about all I will say in this thread.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: America's Inadequate

seconded....all true as well, but as I say, I'm just personally thankful because I nor my family would ever be able to afford all the treatment I've had thru private healthcare here...although Private healthcare doesnt have the "technology or facilities" that the NHS does here cus it's a mirror of the US in that the private care is tiny compared to the nationalised industry is HUGE.

I couldnt comment on Canada's but of course politians have royally screwed it up, mismanaged it and it's in a terrible state, heck a friend of mine died thanks to catching MRSI here, but I would never take it away from the original post-war founders, it was an honest and nobile idea, which as usual, has been corrupted a fair bit. But facts are facts, it's dying on it's feet, more money needs to be pumped and managed better, but in the end, I know I'm very lucky not to have HUGE medical bills

 

[SaintLucifer]

Re: RE: America's Inadequate

ITN, Cuba has better nationalised health system than most of the world, let alone the US, they have amazing doctor's, the facilities are fantastic (although they could be better if it were not for a certain blockade)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_of_Cuba

check the link out above, you will be very surprised, their system and the amount of doctor's per capita they hve is amazing, and the quality of work is probably the best in the world.

There you go, and I would consider myself middle class, so I would assume, with the comments I made about and the assumption that Health insurance companies are similar to other insurers, I'd be in a bit of trouble if it were not for a "free-at-the-point-of-service" healthcare system like the NHS or the canadian system.

The blockade means nothing to Cuba. Canadian medical equipment and drugs are readily available to Cuba. The Cubans just cannot afford them. Canada is not in the least bit affected by the US embargo on Cuba as well it should not be. The Cuban health care system was built by the Soviet Union. It is dying now thanks to a lack of funds. They have no more hard cash with which to purchase parts etc. The majority of Cuban medical equipment is American. Thanks to that embargo they cannot purchase parts from the U.S.A. although they are free to do so from Canada. They just cannot afford the parts. The blockade has absolutely nothing to do with it. You must not forget drugs are allowed through this blockade as part of the U.S.A. 'humanitarian aid'. Yet they are still short of drugs. Why? No cash. The island is becoming dirt poor thanks to the fact their masters, the Soviet Union, have left them in the dark. The majority of Cuban cash comes from Canadian companies doing business there. Why does everyone keep harping on this US embargo of Cuba which does not affect Cuba as heavily as it does? Cuba is free to do business with any other nation in the world. You think the USA is the only nation that has everything? Cuba could purchase medical equipment from Germany. They do not. Why? They cannot afford it. Do not blame the blockade. This is leftist propaganda from socialists who do not want the world to know the truth. Cuba is bankrupt.

 

[SaintLucifer]

Re: RE: America's Inadequate

SaintLucifier, but isnt Ontario virtually a US provence anyway

Thats shocking though, I mean my pay packet has 2 taxes on it, Income Tax and National Insurance...thats it...well I say that's it but it's a good 12% of my wages.

Ontario is a US province? Why do people keep believing this crap? Canada is far more self-sufficient than the USA is. As this is the case, how can any part of Canada be considered a part of the USA? Never going to happen. I would be the first one on the front lines if the USA ever again attempted to make Canada part of them. Of that you can be certain. Now where is my battle helmet?

 

[athabaska]

Re: RE: America's Inadequate

Daz

In some places of Cuba, they have a hard time getting aspirin because the government has little hard currency to spare.

And that 40 million includes many who are on medicaid, medicare and students

We went to Cuba in 1998 and you take everything you need with you. Yes, including aspirins and and a bottle of antiseptic. Cubans have first line health care as in seeing a GP but it more or less stops there. If your child needs an MRI, most medications, a heart valve repaired, etc. then be prepared to sell everything you have (which is next to nothing) to buy a seat to be smuggled into Florida. there your child, with no insurance, will get the treatment they need at the exspense of Uncle Sam.

Re what Canadians pay for health car?. Our cost is about 4,000 per capita a year. If you are a family of 3 that's 12,000...if you are single that's 4,000. Regardless, it's all paid by the taxpayer. We are now down to 2 in our home (it's higher in Alberta, 5100 per capita) so that's 10,200. So ten thousand or so is spent to keep my wife and I ticking. In Cuba it's $157 per capita.

 

[SaintLucifer]

Re: RE: America's Inadequate

well..."technically", I hate to admit it Saintlucifer, but that's what it is, every communist country has or used to hve a national healthcare system, and I know the british Labour government that created the "cradle to the grave" system were Heavy socialists.

It is a socialist system, although I agree with my old Yankee tour guide "disbanding an empire while creating a free national health system is a. either madness or b. shows that Britain was lot more wealthy than it initially claimed"..I would suggest the idea was the brainchild of a few inspired socialists, but it was killing the country by the 70's so Yes...I appreciate it, I'm proud of it, BUT....YES I will admit it is a Socialist's dreamchild

What does disbanding the Empire have to do with healthcare?

 

[Daz_Hockey]

Re: RE: America's Inadequate

SaintLucifier, but isnt Ontario virtually a US provence anyway

Thats shocking though, I mean my pay packet has 2 taxes on it, Income Tax and National Insurance...thats it...well I say that's it but it's a good 12% of my wages.

Ontario is a US province? Why do people keep believing this crap? Canada is far more self-sufficient than the USA is. As this is the case, how can any part of Canada be considered a part of the USA? Never going to happen. I would be the first one on the front lines if the USA ever again attempted to make Canada part of them. Of that you can be certain. Now where is my battle helmet?

Just a joke...of course it isnt, but if you go to Niagara Falls, and compare the american with the canadian side, you are often confused and are shocked at the random tackyness of one side....and it aint the US one.

I'm getting beaten up here, we all know the "doctor's refusing to treat ppl without insurance" is BS, I realise that, but does this social healthcare sceme have the funds to afford the best services? or every such things as an MRI, TMD or CT?....I would question it

 

[SaintLucifer]

Re: RE: America's Inadequate

Daz

In some places of Cuba, they have a hard time getting aspirin because the government has little hard currency to spare.

And that 40 million includes many who are on medicaid, medicare and students

We went to Cuba in 1998 and you take everything you need with you. Yes, including aspirins and and a bottle of antiseptic. Cubans have first line health care as in seeing a GP but it more or less stops there. If your child needs an MRI, most medications, a heart valve repaired, etc. then be prepared to sell everything you have (which is next to nothing) to buy a seat to be smuggled into Florida. there your child, with no insurance, will get the treatment they need at the exspense of Uncle Sam.

Re what Canadians pay for health car?. Our cost is about 4,000 per capita a year. If you are a family of 3 that's 12,000...if you are single that's 4,000. Regardless, it's all paid by the taxpayer. We are now down to 2 in our home (it's higher in Alberta, 5100 per capita) so that's 10,200. So ten thousand or so is spent to keep my wife and I ticking. In Cuba it's $157 per capita.

$157 per capita? Who told you this? That is impossible. Here in Canada we had a doctor who went about the world studying various healthcare systems. She said Canada's current healthcare system cannot be saved. It is estimated that by 2020 healthcare costs will eat up 50% of Canada's annual budget. This is insane! We will be bankrupt at this rate! The doctor suggested we employ a two-tier system in order to save the system. Remember, right now health-care takes up 35% of Canada's total budget. Someone in this thread mentioned that Cuba's healtcare costs take up 5% of Cuba's healthcare budget. I find this absolutely difficult to believe. Paying for Cuba's healthcare system is one of the reasons the Soviet Union went bankrupt.

 

[Toro]

Here in Leon county, they're debating whether or not the sales tax should be raised 0.5%, of which the proceeds will be used to pay for healthcare for the poor. The tax is projected to raise $18 million per year.

The genesis for this proposal is that the local hospitals are losing boat loads of money treating the poor in the ER, so much so that one hospital has said that it might have to shut down.

I support this tax. I have no problem with it.

I have no problem with government healthcare. (I had read somewhere that the US government accounts for roughly half of all health spending in this country, compared to 75% in Canada. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know it is a significant amount.) I have no problem with the goals of Canadian Medicare. I believe - strongly - that everyone should have access to quality healthcare. I make the argument with my hardcore Republican friends that if the state has the responsibility to protect everyone from foreigners killing us, why does the state not have the responsibility to protect at least some of us from healthcare issues killing us. What difference does it make if al-Qaeda kills you or an infection kills you? Dead is dead is dead.

I am just not convinced that the only solution is a single payer model. Many Canadians seem to think that if they don't have Medicare, the only alternative is the US system. That's simply false.

Government resources are finite, and not always responsive to supply and demand. That's why there is, for example, a 2 year waiting list for hip surgery in the UK. I had read an article a few years back of a person flying to Nigeria of all places to get it done in a private clinic.

Drugs like Taxol for cancer treatment are limited in some provinces, the UK, Germany, etc. because the government simply doesn't have the resources to fund some procedures and treatments. You see it show up in cancer survival rates.

 

[I think not]

Daz

What did I tell you? Flame thread. :lol:

 

[Daz_Hockey]

Re: RE: America's Inadequate

well..."technically", I hate to admit it Saintlucifer, but that's what it is, every communist country has or used to hve a national healthcare system, and I know the british Labour government that created the "cradle to the grave" system were Heavy socialists.

It is a socialist system, although I agree with my old Yankee tour guide "disbanding an empire while creating a free national health system is a. either madness or b. shows that Britain was lot more wealthy than it initially claimed"..I would suggest the idea was the brainchild of a few inspired socialists, but it was killing the country by the 70's so Yes...I appreciate it, I'm proud of it, BUT....YES I will admit it is a Socialist's dreamchild

What does disbanding the Empire have to do with healthcare?

a lot actually.....think about it, think of the timing, Britain disbanded it's Empire MAINLY because it could not afford to keep it, Britain was "supposedly" broke, and of course the fact it was the right thing to do had little to do with it.

BUT the point is this: BRITAIN is BROKE

SOOOOOOOO

Why oh why would a country that was broke, create a national health care system that would eventually cost a fortune, not a small one, but a GIGANTIC one to maintain?....simply put, it wasn't as poor as it suggested, a fact not lost on people who realise Britain was really the only country to pay back fully the "lend-lease" payments.

But a national health system, if you look at it, look at the time of it's inception, virtually throughout the commonwealth at the same time, was a get together and a last "noble" throw of an idea of an extinct empire actually.