All of a Sudden, There Aren’t Enough Electric Cars

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
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to Keep Up with Demand



And then you find out why. :lol:






Boo hoo boo hoo boo hoo...."As the LA Times put it, “there is little financial incentive to increase production” on the Fit EV because Honda loses money on each of the cars it builds"...sniffle.


All of a Sudden, There Aren’t Enough Electric Cars to Keep Up with Demand | TIME.com


Honda apologizes for Fit EV shortage - latimes.com

Oh don't worry- once LIE-berals run us into bankruptcy with their idiot spending and cannot afford to bribe industry to build more electric cars then the supply problem will sort itself out! NO govt subsidies means no customers either!

One has only to think of the electric scooter biz that has faded away now that people have seen- in real world conditions just what sort of speed, range and battery service life they can expect! AS for larger vehicles- TTC already has sour experience with battery powered buses!

The production problem will also be alleviated once a few lithium battery powered cars get into crashes and burst into flames which current fire fighting technology cannot put out! Bad enough your cell phone may burst into flames if you over charge it or bump it- how much worse will it be when its your car flaming- with you stuck in it?

And govt enthusiasm for lithium powered vehicles will sour as the toxic residue of lithium production begins to bite!
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,829
14,418
113
Low Earth Orbit
Lithium is produced in far away places where the feel good crowd doesn't have to see what is happening.

Not for long. SK and AB are sitting on the biggest deposits in the world.

But graphene batteries made from coal are replacing lithium vehicle batteries in the very near future.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
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As soon as mining starts all the US$ paid environmentalists will be there protesting mining because it might interrupt the lunar cycle or some such.
 

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
4
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Not for long. SK and AB are sitting on the biggest deposits in the world.

But graphene batteries made from coal are replacing lithium vehicle batteries in the very near future.

So graphene batteries will render lithium batteries obsolete before Tesla even finishes ironing out the bugs in its model 3 lithium powered car- the one being recalled in large numbers for safety upgrades?

And LIE-berals want to dump BILLIONS of our dollars into this not yet ready for public consumption industry? For our benefit? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Apparently some people are not aware of how toxic lithium is- for one thing most of the current supply of the raw ore is produced in China- where govt is already upset over lithium pollution and is working to minimize more of it- with mounting costs.

The raw material is transported to Nevada where Pamnasonic processes it into car batteries for Tesla- with pollution problems growing there as well!


Here is a report detailing the reality that electric cars will not be either safer nor more environmentally friendly than gas powered cars! The ugly reality is that LIE-berals are deliberately ignoring any and all simple solutions to global warming! LIE-beral policy is so muddled that although they know they could reduce gridlock and air pollution in Toronto by building more subways- their grossly selfish priorities are focused on spending billions to BUY votes from illegals so LIE-berals can cling to power at any price!

Yeah- LIE-berals see nothing wrong with borrowing billions to pay for future terrorists and welfare “clients” to settle in Canada and yet there is not a penny for new transit to save the environment!

Here is the report that LIE-berals do not want you to read:

COVER-UP Charged in NHTSA investigation of Tesla Motors

Batteries used in Tesla Motors cars are rather unusual: they are called lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries. Their mode of action is different from classical batteries of petrol or diesel engines. Components of Lithium-ion batteries can present a chemical hazard. In a few words: how does a Li-ion battery work? Elon Musk and his partners at Goldman Sachs and the Silicon Valley billionaires dig up the lithium ion from mines in Asia.

A Lithium-ion battery works with the following reaction: a chemically reversible lithium ion exchange between two electrodes. A number of toxic chemicals go into making the battery. When the battery gets hot or wet, it releases even more toxic chemicals.

The positive electrode is usually made of a lithiated transition metal oxide (cobalt dioxide, manganese dioxide…); the negative electrode is usually made of graphite.[1] This reaction needs both electrodes to be immersed into a liquid electrolyte. Most of the time, the electrolyte is a solution of lithium hexafluorophosphate salts into a mixture of ethylene carbonate and propylene carbonate or tetrahydrofurane.

Leaking Li-ion battery = production of hydrofluoric acid

As the electrolyte is a liquid, it can leak from the inside of the battery and come into contact with air moisture or water.

Two chemical reactions can provoke the production of hydrofluoric acid:

Hydrolysis of PF6- ions of the electrolyte in the presence of water
Combustion of those PF6- ions.

Hydrolysis of PF6- ions occurs only in the presence of water in a medium which is not too acidic or basic (pH between 1 and 12) However, the kinetics of this hydrolysis are not favorable. The reaction is slow and the quantities of released hydrofluoric acid will not be very important.[2] When in contact with skin or eyes, hydrofluoric acid can provoke severe chemical injuries and is toxic.

Lithium-ion batteries and combustion: a real hazard

The Lithium-ion battery also presents a risk of degradation by a violent and dangerous combustion reaction in case of misuse. This combustion can occur spontaneously as soon as the batteries intern temperature reaches 65 °C (149 °F) and is very likely to occur above 75 °C (167 °F).[3]

In case of burning of the battery, hydrofluoric acid is produced and released by thermal decomposition of the PF6- ions of the electrolyte contained inside the battery.

A French INERIS report on electric cars batteries describes this risk. Moreover, the INERIS studies show that: “From a metrological point of view, measuring fluoride ions produced during a fire remains a delicate operation”

Concentration of released hydrofluoric acid is variable and depends on the quantity of electrolyte burnt in the combustion process and the combustion temperature.

Other toxic gases are also produced and released during the electrolyte combustion - carbon oxides from combustion of ethylene and propylene carbonates.

(Bad enough breathing fumes from a regular car fire but fumes from burning lithium will be especially poisonous!)

To prevent leaking or burning of the battery, very cautious manipulation of Li-ion batteries is recommended

What to do in case of Leaking Li-ion battery?

When a leak is observed from a Li-ion battery, the leaking liquid may contain hydrofluoric acid. Absorption of the liquid residue with an adapted absorbent is necessary. The use of a neutralizing absorbent for acidic chemicals such as neutralizing absorbent ACICAPTAL® or polyvalent neutralizing absorbent TRIVOREX® is recommended. Personal protective equipment is also recommended.

(Gee- if your gas tank leaks it does not automatically turn your garage into a toxic hot spot that requires special technology to handle and then to dispose of? You KNOW you ain’t putting weird crap soaked in acid out for the regular trash pickup!)

In the event of a cutaneous or ocular exposure to a liquid from a Li-ion Battery, an optimized decontamination is necessary. Exposure to hydrofluoric acid requires adapted decontamination and medical advice.

(Spill a little gas and it evaporates- spill chemicals from Lithium battery and head for the hospital- QUICK!)

Hexafluorine® solution is an emergency washing solution specially designed to answer to hydrofluoric hazard: discover Hexafluorine® solution
What to do in case of combustion of a Li-ion battery?

(Everybody has some in their medicine cabinet right?)

Li-ion batteries from electric or hybrid cars are usually isolated and protected so that they do not release hydrofluoric vapors in case of combustion.

During a car accident, if the battery ignites, contact with released vapors should be avoided as much as possible. Tesla Motors drivers have been killed and burned into unrecognizable lumps of melted plastic and alloy.

(Oh- so you crash your car and are laying there stunned and unable to move- or maybe the door is jammed shut- and you are likely to die from fumes leaking from your battery? Oh well- you made LIE-berals happy with your vehicle purchase!)
 

Hoid

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 15, 2017
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The demand is the important thing. As long as the demand continues to grow the supply will take care of itself.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

Satelitte Radio Addict
May 28, 2007
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If they are losing money, they need to increase list price. This will balance with reduction in demand and no shortage. Basic economics.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
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Not to worry. The other dozen or so electric car manufacturers seem more than willing to make up for any shortfall from Honda. Right now it is all about maintaining market share. Manufacturers who drop out now will be paying catch-up later.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

Satelitte Radio Addict
May 28, 2007
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Not to worry. The other dozen or so electric car manufacturers seem more than willing to make up for any shortfall from Honda. Right now it is all about maintaining market share. Manufacturers who drop out now will be paying catch-up later.

As long as they have other cars they can sell to give them some cash flow. Until it turns a profit, don't expect it to be anything more than a niche market.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
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38
Edmonton
As long as they have other cars they can sell to give them some cash flow. Until it turns a profit, don't expect it to be anything more than a niche market.

One of the interesting things about electric cars is that they don't require the huge outlay of cash to set up manufacturing facilities that internal combustion automobiles require. Currently there are factories that are turning out just a few cars a day. Of course, the large manufacturers such as GM, Ford, Toyota, etc have a big advantage as they have billions to spend on R&D so I expect them to dominate the electric car market. But there are lots of small local manufacturers out there due to the fact that electric cars require much less maintenance than conventional vehicles. These cars are not going to go away, not with giant companies like VW and GM announcing they are going to go all-electric in the future.

https://www.wired.com/story/general-motors-electric-cars-plan-gm/

https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/v...tric-versions-of-all-of-its-vehicles-by-2030/
 

Danbones

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 23, 2015
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Tesla started delivering those late Model 3s yet?
;)
Or maybe you can get a vacuum cleaner mobile from them other model car folks...

Oh wait...they won't be on the road for a while either.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

Satelitte Radio Addict
May 28, 2007
15,275
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One of the interesting things about electric cars is that they don't require the huge outlay of cash to set up manufacturing facilities that internal combustion automobiles require. Currently there are factories that are turning out just a few cars a day. Of course, the large manufacturers such as GM, Ford, Toyota, etc have a big advantage as they have billions to spend on R&D so I expect them to dominate the electric car market. But there are lots of small local manufacturers out there due to the fact that electric cars require much less maintenance than conventional vehicles. These cars are not going to go away, not with giant companies like VW and GM announcing they are going to go all-electric in the future.

https://www.wired.com/story/general-motors-electric-cars-plan-gm/

https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/v...tric-versions-of-all-of-its-vehicles-by-2030/

If they can't make money (going from quote in OP (from 2013)), they won't make them 100%. The car makers will make whatever they think they can sell for the most $. Given the huge subsidies given to electric, that is artificially increasing demand by lowering the price point.
 

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
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Still grossly overpriced. Chev Spark $17000 Bolt $44000 Same platform.

Tesla got $1.4 billion US in grant money from Nevada govt- got a pile of investment money from starry eyed investors who got sold on Musk "vision"

-has had problems at every turn- worker strikes over levels of lithium pollution higher than expected in the plant

- troubles with local govt as the plume of toxic lithium dust drifts down wind to other communities in spite of Musk deliberately locating the plant in an isolated area with lots of wind and few people

- problems adhering to promised hiring levels as per the deal with Nevada

- problems with the contacters that are special sort of switches hooked to the batteries to handle and regulate electrical flow and which have been failing unexpectedly and leaving drivers stranded

- problems with the auto drive system that has killed a number of drivers

- problems with cost generally since an electric car costs basically twice as much as a gas car

- problems with govt as voters grow disgusted with govt manipulation of carc prices to force us to buy what we do not want

- problems with the charging systems needed to keep these cares going with Ontario-owe LIE-berals creating yet another scandal as they screw up their expensive contract to install chargers in public locations

- problems with the LIE-beral purchased charging systems that either do not work at all or which deliver less than the advertised charging rate problems with investors and bond rating services who are beginning to think that the Musk vision is mostly talk and will DIE just as soon as voters get angry over the vast waste of OUR money being used by selfish to create an artificial market for a product desired by only a self appointed elite and entitled few

-problems convincing the general public that an electric car is wirth the trouble and expense since we all know that safe disposal of batteries is a serious environmental handicap

-problems convincing the public that the charging problems, limited range- with the potential for even further reduced range in cold weather Canada, limited cargo capacity, poorly hidden pollution issues related to lithium production, potentially serious mechanical issues that will not be found till after the cars have been on the road for some years- like the issue with things like the contacters that can leave you stranded- and the recent recall of a pile of Tesla cars, issues related finding spare parts since |Tesla does NOT have a large selection of dealers to draw on for help in repairing their cars, issues with Tesla cars that have been crashed with body shops currently knowing little about how to handle those hugely toxic and dangerous batteries that carry enough voltage to injure or kill a careless worker, problems with the potential fire hazard that lithium exposed to air represents and we have all seen video of cell phones and lap tops bursting into flames if they are over charged- think broken LIE-beral chargers- or if they are bumped to hard and lithium is exposed to air like those Samsung phones

The ugly reality is we are in a savage fight to restore fiscal logic in Canada and the new govts coming to replace airhead LIE-berals will have no patience for elitist snobs and their electric toys that cannot survive in a free market without having the sort of fiscal backup that Soviet Commissars used to supply to client states- until the cost KILLED the Soviet Union!

Who killed the electric car? Stupid and impractical and quite greedy LIE-berals killed it!
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
If they can't make money (going from quote in OP (from 2013)), they won't make them 100%. The car makers will make whatever they think they can sell for the most $. Given the huge subsidies given to electric, that is artificially increasing demand by lowering the price point.

I'm really surprised that you don't understand the efficiencies associated with mass production. When Ford came out with his first cars more than a century ago only the wealthy could afford them. That very quickly changed. And for electric cars it has to change otherwise they will not replace internal cop0mbustion engines even if they are cheaper to run and maintain. So look for mass produced electric cars in less than a decade.

Tesla started delivering those late Model 3s yet?
;)
Or maybe you can get a vacuum cleaner mobile from them other model car folks...

Oh wait...they won't be on the road for a while either.

You've got a Tesla fixation. The company is not even a major mover in electric car manufacture.

Tesla got $1.4 billion US in grant money from Nevada govt- got a pile of investment money from starry eyed investors who got sold on Musk "vision"

-has had problems at every turn- worker strikes over levels of lithium pollution higher than expected in the plant

- troubles with local govt as the plume of toxic lithium dust drifts down wind to other communities in spite of Musk deliberately locating the plant in an isolated area with lots of wind and few people

- problems adhering to promised hiring levels as per the deal with Nevada

- problems with the contacters that are special sort of switches hooked to the batteries to handle and regulate electrical flow and which have been failing unexpectedly and leaving drivers stranded

- problems with the auto drive system that has killed a number of drivers

- problems with cost generally since an electric car costs basically twice as much as a gas car

- problems with govt as voters grow disgusted with govt manipulation of carc prices to force us to buy what we do not want

- problems with the charging systems needed to keep these cares going with Ontario-owe LIE-berals creating yet another scandal as they screw up their expensive contract to install chargers in public locations

- problems with the LIE-beral purchased charging systems that either do not work at all or which deliver less than the advertised charging rate problems with investors and bond rating services who are beginning to think that the Musk vision is mostly talk and will DIE just as soon as voters get angry over the vast waste of OUR money being used by selfish to create an artificial market for a product desired by only a self appointed elite and entitled few

-problems convincing the general public that an electric car is wirth the trouble and expense since we all know that safe disposal of batteries is a serious environmental handicap

-problems convincing the public that the charging problems, limited range- with the potential for even further reduced range in cold weather Canada, limited cargo capacity, poorly hidden pollution issues related to lithium production, potentially serious mechanical issues that will not be found till after the cars have been on the road for some years- like the issue with things like the contacters that can leave you stranded- and the recent recall of a pile of Tesla cars, issues related finding spare parts since |Tesla does NOT have a large selection of dealers to draw on for help in repairing their cars, issues with Tesla cars that have been crashed with body shops currently knowing little about how to handle those hugely toxic and dangerous batteries that carry enough voltage to injure or kill a careless worker, problems with the potential fire hazard that lithium exposed to air represents and we have all seen video of cell phones and lap tops bursting into flames if they are over charged- think broken LIE-beral chargers- or if they are bumped to hard and lithium is exposed to air like those Samsung phones

The ugly reality is we are in a savage fight to restore fiscal logic in Canada and the new govts coming to replace airhead LIE-berals will have no patience for elitist snobs and their electric toys that cannot survive in a free market without having the sort of fiscal backup that Soviet Commissars used to supply to client states- until the cost KILLED the Soviet Union!

Who killed the electric car? Stupid and impractical and quite greedy LIE-berals killed it!

Funny that we don't hear of any other manufacturers of electric vehicles having those problems, and there are a lot of them. And if you can name a major auto maker in the US who has never received a subsidy I'll concede that electric cars have no future. And your Soviet Union reference makes no sense, as usual.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

Satelitte Radio Addict
May 28, 2007
15,275
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Toronto, ON
I'm really surprised that you don't understand the efficiencies associated with mass production. When Ford came out with his first cars more than a century ago only the wealthy could afford them. That very quickly changed. And for electric cars it has to change otherwise they will not replace internal cop0mbustion engines even if they are cheaper to run and maintain. So look for mass produced electric cars in less than a decade.

I think we differ in our opinion of future demand or at least the time scale of the demand. I do not believe it will be as fast as you believe. Certainly the massive subsidies by the various governments due help to artificially increase the demand.
 

pgs

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 29, 2008
28,581
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I'm really surprised that you don't understand the efficiencies associated with mass production. When Ford came out with his first cars more than a century ago only the wealthy could afford them. That very quickly changed. And for electric cars it has to change otherwise they will not replace internal cop0mbustion engines even if they are cheaper to run and maintain. So look for mass produced electric cars in less than a decade.



You've got a Tesla fixation. The company is not even a major mover in electric car manufacture.



Funny that we don't hear of any other manufacturers of electric vehicles having those problems, and there are a lot of them. And if you can name a major auto maker in the US who has never received a subsidy I'll concede that electric cars have no future. And your Soviet Union reference makes no sense, as usual.
I am really surprised you don’t look around and see how many conventionally powered cars are on the roads .
 

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
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I am really surprised you don’t look around and see how many conventionally powered cars are on the roads .

Why do LIE-berals support electric cars? Because of the size of their amygdala!

Here is an interesting little post that I saw a while back and it offers up some logical reasons for why LIE-berals are doing such a BAD JOB of running Ontari-owe and the country as well! Some Hog told us this:

Conservatives have larger fear centers in their brains.

Scientists at the University of London say that conservatives have an enlarged "fear" area in their brains, and smaller areas associated with courage and optimism. The London Telegraph reports:

Scientists have found that people with conservative views have brains with larger amygdalas, almond shaped areas in the centre of the brain often associated with anxiety and emotions.

On the other hand, they have a smaller anterior cingulate, an area at the front of the brain associated with courage and looking on the bright side of life.

The researches say there is a direct correlation between the sizes of those areas and one's political views.
http://www.salon.com/2010/12/29/conservative_brains/

So your Hog post is telling us that Conservatives have been right all along and that McWynnty and her Lie-beral pals are intellectually unfit to run our province.
You are telling us is that McWynnty and her Lie-beral pals are not evolved enough to recognize the terrible financial damage that her reckless spending is having on the health and welfare of Ontari-owe! You are also telling us that McWynnty and company are not evolved enough intellectually to be able to make long term plans in a complex economic modern world because they cannot extrapolate and visualize far enough into the future to see the horrible results of their foolish short sighted plans. You are telling us that the Lie-berals will continue to skip along from one mess to another (E-health, Ornge, the gas plants, wind power mess) while singing `don’t worry, be happy` simply because they lack the ability to see any threat till it falls kicking and squealing into their laps. You are telling us that the best thing that could happen to Ontari-owe is that ALL Lie-berals get dumped in the next election and that sensible, more highly evolved and sophisticated Conservatives (with their greater capacity to identify and deal with threats and make long term plans) should be put in charge for the benefit of all Ontari-owe!!
Well, we knew it all along, we just needed you short sighted types to get on board.