Al-Qaeda says Canada deserves bombing

[Paco]

You are so dam blind. No terrorist ever came from Iraq before the war, and Al Queida was never there in the past. Iraq, was the less religious Middle eastern country. Now, its fertile grounds for terrorist, and will be for the next decades.

There are hundreds of reports linking Saddam to terrorism from the media around the world. How do you discount those reports so completely? Is it a massive world conspiracy?

 

[Bushanti]

"But realistically, the Palestinians have been used by many to support and buttress their own agendas." Researchout, just substitute Americans for Palestinians throughout your previous submission--make the necessary adjustments to surrounding details--and you've pretty much got a picture of an American who's just more advantaged in material effects.

Yep, you better believe that the Yanks are used to support and buttress the agendas of Bushites and corporate America--the shadow government.

Now I haven't been around these parts long enough to say with certainty that you are American, but I suspect it. If so, I suggest that were you to open your eyes, ears and heart , you'd rightly conclude that you're not that much different from your neighbours wherever they may be positioned around the globe.

If you're a Canuck, then you need a good dressing down for letting down the guard. If you are, more specifically, an Albertan, then we'll have to give you a temporary pass for involuntary insanity brought on by your stint as citizen under the Ralph Kline/Wannabe Bush government. But no matter, return to previous paragraph and substitute Palestinian for American for Canadian.

We all need to get it into our collective heads, especially in this day of possible instantaneous global self-anihilation, that we're all in this mess together and we'd better be looking for a solution whereby we can call a halt to what's taking us down the road to destruction.

 

[researchok]

Im a Canadian living in the US. Now that we've cleared that up, onwards- though in itself, that is irrelevant.

I appreciate your opinion-- but it's just that. As I've stated many times, simply having an opinion doesn't make it so. You have offered no concrete evidence to support what youre saying.

Are you serioulsy trying to say that the Palestinians have NOT been used by their Arab neighbors? There has been reams-- written by Arabs and other Palestinians-- on that very subject. The Palestinans have been used for decades. To deny that flies in the face of reality.

You can certainly disagree with US and other western foreign policy-- but to say that the situation in the PA is a result of 'corporate America' is sophomoric, at best.

 

[Bushanti]

C'mon, admit it, Saint Canada is not without fault, n'est ce pas? So let's cut to the chase and preempt our government by going direct to the AQ with a deal.

They spare Canada and we agree to deliver unto them a marginally attended Senate (best we could ever do under any circumstances) and up the ante considerably by throwing in the House of Commons on the day the bill comes down for a vote on same-sex marriage. But should the AQ stir even slightly, let's eagerly fatten the pot by offering up Klyne and Harper as plumb fitting sacrificial lambs. Oh, my yes. That would do it for me.

And so...........KABOOM!!

The AQ gets its revenge and we the voting public get a brand new start. Such a deal.

Now I know that the vast majority on this board is intelligent enough to know that tongue in cheek is the intent here, but for those others, HEL-LO, I'm KID-DING!

 

[Bushanti]

Hmmm, so you're a Canuck living in Bushland, eh wot? I was pretty close in supposing that you're an American--let's just say that you're under the influence.

As for me, I'm feeling uncharacteristically smug inasmuch as I had the good sense to flee that scene many years ago.

As for the Arabs using the Palestinians as pawns, yeah, so what's your point? My point was quite simply that if you want to go looking for pawns, look no further than the country you're living in. That's exactly what the great unwashed are used for--and that's why they are so carefully cultivated in any number of ways--they're manipulated, lied to, spun to, deceived--primed, if you will, to do the bidding of the ruling classes for the good of the ruling classes.

Thus, my point was generic in scope--I thought you would get that by inference. Sorry. In the future, I will try and dot the i's and cross the t's--much like America's public handlers, CNN and FOX do for their hapless viewers. Can't leave an American to think on his own--for he might arrive at a conclusion which flies in the face of what corporate america wants him to think or behave. Oooooo--NOT an American acceptable option.

In any event, I am so pleased to learn than you are thriving down there and sincerely hope that you are seriously considering taking out U.S. citizenship. I like to encourage all wannabe Yanks to apply for their green cards. I mean, wouldn't it be simply cathartic to be relieved of the Alliance types and also the far right of centre folk posing as Liberals. Regressives: to the south; progressives, to the north.

As for evidence--sources--whatever--try using good, tried and true common sense. Try not to depend on what "reliable sources" have to say about any given subject before first trying to get a sense of truth predicated on your own eyes, ears and experiences.

Ask questions of yourself. Just one as an example. Why would the U.S. go to war with Iraq? And test your answers. It's surprising what you can come up with on your very, very own. Then go ahead and test your results against the results of others--if you must.

I don't go in much for finding "reliable sources" before I exhaust my own knowledge and experiences. Common sense is a lost art these days. More's the pity.

 

[researchok]

I find your post humorous, at best.

Since when are your opinions the final arbiter of ideas or morality?

Why on earth would you say I'm 'under the influence'? Its rather presumptious of you conclude that someone who disagrees with you to be 'under the influence'. I could say the same about you!

Do you think you speak for all Canadians?

The statement that Americans can't think for themselves is ridiculous. What makes you think democracy here is different than in Canada? Do you propoese that Americans are incapable of making their own choices?

There are Quebecois-- of which I'm of the non pure laine variety-- that have ample reason to excoriate the government of Canada for it's treatment of Quebec.

Albertans, rightly or wrongly-- it's irrelevant-- have as much right to their opinions as you.

What makes you think Canadians are less pawns? On what do you base your statement?

In point of fact, I will retain my Canadian citizenship, though thats none of your business. I find it interestin that you choose to deride me personally-- that speaks volumes obout your character. You know nothing about me, heven't even asked, and yet youre comfortable doing that.

Is it any wonder that many Americans find Canadians irrelevant? Why shouldnt they-- you presume facts not in evidence, a losing proposition.

Im neither defending nor condemning Americans. But to say they can't think for themselves is a grossly misleading remark that deserves a response. It is very condacending of you and can never be validated.

You seem to have all the answers to everything.

In the real world, that makes you very suspect.

 

[Bushanti]

"I find your post humorous, at best."

WELL, HEY, that's a good start. A sense of humour. Yes, Houston, we have contact.

"Since when are your opinions the final arbiter of ideas or morality?"

GOOD GRIEF, did I proclaim myself to be so? Perhaps you mean that I act like I'm the final arbiter of ideas and morality. If that's how you perceive me, I wouldn't presume to argue the point.

"Why on earth would you say I'm 'under the influence'? Its rather presumptious of you conclude that someone who disagrees with you to be 'under the influence'. I could say the same about you!"

I DIDN'T MEAN under the influence of........horrors of horrors......the sauce of inebriation, but rather under the influence of the elixir of American propaganda . As for what you can say about me, do your thing. I do find putridly foul language declasse, but never really offensive 'cause the author who puts out base stuff is incapable of better. Other than that, give me your best shot. A well crafted insult garners MY respect, however outrageously untrue it might be. (Isn't that what so many of the upper crust English are good at? she asked wistfully. )

"Do you think you speak for all Canadians?" ONLY THE THINKING ones :] ---c'mon now, don't take this all too seriously

"The statement that Americans can't think for themselves is ridiculous."

IT IS????

"What makes you think democracy here is different than in Canada?"

NO? DID I say that too? Surely I didn't imply that democracy exists in either country, did I? It doesn't you know. Democracy is an illusion made more real only by the size of your pocketbook.


"Do you propoese that Americans are incapable of making their own choices?"

WELLL, if you were to insert the word "most" between "that" and "Americans," then the answer is a resounding, YES.


"There are Quebecois-- of which I'm of the non pure laine variety-- that have ample reason to excoriate the government of Canada for it's treatment of Quebec."

YEAH, THE FRENCH REALLY did get a bad rap at the beginning, didn't they? But, I'd say the score's been evened, doncha think? I mean anybody today aiming for a federal government job is scrambling to learn ze French, n'ect ce pas? And the Language police have been strict enforcers of the language laws. And look how many English felt squeezed out of predominately English speaking neighbourhoods--most dispersing west to Ontario and beyond. And not being recognized in the Charter as a distinct society--welllll, now THAT'S a bummer, ain't it? Like in the scheme of world problems, that's an issue. Right. Vive la Quebec


"Albertans, rightly or wrongly-- it's irrelevant-- have as much right to their opinions as you. "

EXCUSE ME?! NO THEY DON'T! Any Albertan with an allegiance to either Harper and/or Klyne is persona non grata and should be immediately turfed out of Canada and sent directly to Texas. And be good, ya-all, and don't run afoul of the law. They's got special ways in Texas for dealing with you sinners.

"What makes you think Canadians are less pawns? On what do you base your statement?"

AGAIN, I ASK, did I SAY that? I don't think so. Did I imply it? Probably. Based on what? --that we've not been subjected to as much systematic propaganda as the Americans. Nevertheless, to one degree or another the majority of people worldwide are pawns of their governments. Tell the average American that he has been systematically riddled with propaganda and he'll firmly deny it. What else would you expect him to do? He's been carefully taught that the only peoples who are on the receiving end of propaganda are pinkos, reds, commies, left wingers--you know--the untouchables that Hoover and his thugs went after with such rigourous gusto. And McCarthy, bliss his pohr ignirint sole. What other country believes in its own press as much as the U.S.? Such a hoot!

"In point of fact, I will retain my Canadian citizenship, though thats none of your business. I find it interestin that you choose to deride me personally-- that speaks volumes obout your character. You know nothing about me, heven't even asked, and yet youre comfortable doing that."

OH MY, YOU REALLY ARE MAKING life hard for me. All right, retain your Canadian citizenship if you must. But I insist that should you at any time decide to return to Canada, you must first subject yourself to a complete de-briefing and re-programming treatment. Failure to comply fully will result in punitive measures taken against your person. We don't quite know what they would be--but thanks to your decision to remain in the U.S. for the present, we have some time to work on it.

Keep in mind, however, that I am a self-qualified and self-recognized American de-programmer and could be a valuale Canadian contact for you in the future. I work fast, I work cheap and in your particular case, I'd work free. What am I saying?!

"Is it any wonder that many Americans find Canadians irrelevant? Why shouldnt they-- you presume facts not in evidence, a losing proposition."

HELL, SO WHAT else is new? I can appreciate that that feeling is prevalent among your crowd. But the Americans I know--and love--are amongst those "in the know"--and bless their souls, how they cheer me on--I swear! You think such a claim is a bit of a stretch? Hmmm. O.K., so maybe they don't exactly cheer my cause. O.K., so it's not exactly a cheer; it's more nudging approval. All right already, so it's a half-assed acceptance. Sorry, Researchok, I don't backpeddle any further than that!

AS FOR MY PRESUMING FACTS not in evidence, by definition then, they are not facts. Are you suggesting instead that I made erroneous statements unsubstantiated by facts? If so, please be kind enough to point them out.


"You seem to have all the answers to everything." YEAH, I DO--somewhere along the line I got this notion that I'd make a fabulous benevolent dictator. Trust me, under my divine rule, you and yours would flourish and be happy--and so too would everyone. Delusions of grandeur? Yeah, I guess. Inviting ridicule and nasty comments? No doubt. Am I serious? What do you think?


And finally, you said, "In the real world, that makes you very suspect."

Ooooooooooo.

Anyway, Researchok, you're aok - a little skewed around the edges, but still aok. And of me, you say.................nah! I'm a pussycat.

 

[Numure]

You are so dam blind. No terrorist ever came from Iraq before the war, and Al Queida was never there in the past. Iraq, was the less religious Middle eastern country. Now, its fertile grounds for terrorist, and will be for the next decades.

There are hundreds of reports linking Saddam to terrorism from the media around the world. How do you discount those reports so completely? Is it a massive world conspiracy?

Stop watching CNN, you might actually get facts, instead of propaganda. Listen to the CBC, BBC, Reuters (not a favorite...)... Saddam had no links to World wide terrorism what so ever. Well, he gave money to suicide bombers families in Palestine, but thats pretty much it. You know, they hated him, as much as he hated them. Simple, and easy to comprehend. He wasnt a fundamentalist, and if theirs one thing fundamentalist hate, its moderates or none believers. Something Saddam was alledged to be.

 

[researchok]

My meaning was perhaps not clear enough-- when you referred to 'under the influence' I was acknowledging your assertion that Americans and other swith different views cant/wont think for themselves. If I was vague, I apologize.

I do however, stand by my remarks. Albertans, quebecois, et al do have as much right to their opinions and access to the ballot box as anyone else. Your remarks seem to disagree with that very idea. That is the essence of a free society-- peole can differ in ideas and not have to worry about being 'shipped off' anywhere.

 

[Numure]

My meaning was perhaps not clear enough-- when you referred to 'under the influence' I was acknowledging your assertion that Americans and other swith different views cant/wont think for themselves. If I was vague, I apologize.

I do however, stand by my remarks. Albertans, quebecois, et al do have as much right to their opinions and access to the ballot box as anyone else. Your remarks seem to disagree with that very idea. That is the essence of a free society-- peole can differ in ideas and not have to worry about being 'shipped off' anywhere.

I completly agree. Everyone has opinions, some completly different then the next. We must respect thyat, for a country to work. Thus why Canada just doesnt work...

 

[researchok]

LOL...not what I intended, but youre point is well taken.

I did resent his comments re Quebec and Alberta-- as if those citizens were 'less than', etc

 

[Reverend Blair]

People should not be shipped off, but they should be encouraged to go to where they will be happy. The US is a very different country than Canada. Canadians who think Canada should be more like the US...Harper supporters mostly...should be encouraged to go to the US. They are clearly out of sync with the rest of Canada and would change things in a way most Canadians do not want.

Conversely, I fully support any American who identifies more with Canadian values and ideals and encourage them to move here.

Look at it this way, before I moved to Winnipeg I lived in North Battleford for close to a year. I hated it there...it's a pretty conservative place and there was at that time (I don't know if it's changed or not) an almost complete lack of support for the arts and culture. There was also a lot of religious and racial intolerance. I knew I wasn't going to change that, so I moved to a place where the arts and culture are supported and there is more tolerance.

Staying in a place that doesn't suit you is silly.

 

[researchok]

Why should Canadians or Americans who have differing views have to entertain the thought of moving?

Doesnt diversity also include diversity of views?

Personally, I have always believed in a spirited opposition...but I cant understand your point of view in toto-- if, for example, elections in your area were to support a party you opposed-- is that reason enough for them to say 'you dont belong'-- Id hope not!

Also, to say the Americans dont support the arts, for example, is untrue (I wasnt clear if you were referring to North Battleford or the US in general).

Per capita spending on the arts (state and federal) is among the highest in the world.

As for racial intolerance, I agree its a scourge-- everywhere. Canada is no less immune.

 

[researchok]

Also, Rev, Im not clear on something-- are you saying that Quebec and Alberta, for example, are free to leave Confederation, if they so choose?

 

[Bushanti]

Some of you guys take your politics very seriously--so better hasten to acknowledge what a great thing that is--for you.

Me? I like to play around a little. Too many of the world's ills are so devastatingly tragic that I need to lighten up a bit. And since that's my bent, I'll continue in that vein whenever the mood hits.

I take almost everything I say with a huge grain of salt, but if you want to lend more importance to some of my utterings than they at times clearly deserve, then go for it. But you're fighting windmills.

But hey, folks, I don't remember saying anything about encouraging the Quebecois to move. Horrors! Never! I dig the French--besides which so many of their women are great fashion role models. Very classy dressers. What English-speaking woman has not mimicked a French counterpart from time to time? Ooooooo, a little smattering of stereotypying. Yikes! That should get the gravers sniping again.

As for diversity and freedom of opinion, not in my world. Yur either with me or agin me--and if yur agin me, I haul out my voodoo doll and stick pins in her. So don't mess with me.

Keep the Faith :]

 

[Reverend Blair]

Alberta is a different case than Quebec...when the oil economy crashes they will be begging to stay. Also, if there was a referendum in Alberta about separating it would reinforce that most Albertans want to be part of Canada. Their separatist movement is based on greed. Greed is not a solid foundation for anything.

Quebec is a very different culture than most of Canada. The language issue is almost a moot point, it's the culture that is substantially different. Their separtist movement is based on culture and politics.

While I want Quebec and Alberta to remain part of Canada, if they feel that things are so desperate that they must go, then they should be allowed to negotiate their secession.

North Battleford isn't in the US, Researchok. It's in Saskatchewan. It does not represent all of Saskatchewan, or even other small towns there, just itself.

I used it as an example because I could have as easily stayed there and tried to change things...tried to force what I wanted on others. When I failed, I could have blamed them and threatened to build a firewall around my little part of town. Instead I chose to leave, came to school in Winnipeg and have been here for twenty years. I have not been back to North Battleford in that time.

What the Harperites are doing right now is blaming Ontario and Quebec and threatening to wall themselves off from the rest of the country. They are mad because the majority did not wish to change to suit the minority.

If you look at the policies and statements of Harper and his most ardent supporters you will see a pattern of pro-American/anti-Canadian sentiment. Instead of trying to turn Canada into a mini-me of the US, they should pack up and move south.

 

[researchok]

Alberta is a different case than Quebec...when the oil economy crashes they will be begging to stay. Also, if there was a referendum in Alberta about separating it would reinforce that most Albertans want to be part of Canada. Their separatist movement is based on greed. Greed is not a solid foundation for anything.

Quebec is a very different culture than most of Canada. The language issue is almost a moot point, it's the culture that is substantially different. Their separtist movement is based on culture and politics.

While I want Quebec and Alberta to remain part of Canada, if they feel that things are so desperate that they must go, then they should be allowed to negotiate their secession.

North Battleford isn't in the US, Researchok. It's in Saskatchewan. It does not represent all of Saskatchewan, or even other small towns there, just itself.

I used it as an example because I could have as easily stayed there and tried to change things...tried to force what I wanted on others. When I failed, I could have blamed them and threatened to build a firewall around my little part of town. Instead I chose to leave, came to school in Winnipeg and have been here for twenty years. I have not been back to North Battleford in that time.

What the Harperites are doing right now is blaming Ontario and Quebec and threatening to wall themselves off from the rest of the country. They are mad because the majority did not wish to change to suit the minority.

If you look at the policies and statements of Harper and his most ardent supporters you will see a pattern of pro-American/anti-Canadian sentiment. Instead of trying to turn Canada into a mini-me of the US, they should pack up and move south.

So far, so good, Rev.

The points you make are relevant, insofar as Alberta politics are concerned-- but I still am not clear as to your point about encouraging 'transfer', if you will. I can agree that Quebec is poses a unique set of circumstances-- Im not sure I agree that all avenues of reconciliation with Quebec have been exhausted, but thats another thread.

Isnt the point of a free society-- and some might say obligation-- to have a 'lively opposition'? I mentioned that earlier, but Im not sure how youre response addressed that.

Also, cant an argument for 'greed' as a basis for separation be made? For example (though admitedly not a perfect analogy) the former republics of the USSR first reason for idependance was control over their own resources. How would Alberta be different, for example?

Also, how do you see separate Quebec (and/or Alberta) in the context of a relationship with Ottawa? Or, do you see truly sovereign states?

I guess being down here and seeing the difference between the states/federal relationship, and the provincial/federal relationship, makes me wonder if a modification of our system might be in order. Youre point re Alberta is well taken, in that a single province can effectively 'hold hostage' the country, to a great extent.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I'm not convinced that all forms of reconciliation with Quebec have been exhausted either. What the rest of Canada thinks doesn't matter much though...what Quebec thinks does.

A lively opposition has to represent Canada, not just one region of Canada. The Reform/Alliance/Conservatives have never done that. I seen people from Alberta argue that the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives do not even represent the views of Albertans well because of the social conservatism they represent.

Greed as a basis for separation doesn't work because people do not support it. It's too narrow. The Conservatives pissed off a lot of farmers this time around because the Conservatives, in their greed, refused to support fining meat-packers for contempt of Parliament. The Liberals and NDP dropped the ball on that...they should have gone after the Conservatives big-time on that issue, but the farmers didn't forget. It's part of the reason why the popular vote for the Conservatives went down this time around.

That's just one example. Virtually any issue outside of the Alberta oil patch is under-represented (at best) by the Harperites and Ralph Klein's provincial party.

The separation of Alberta is based on nothing but oil. That will not succeed because it is too narrow an issue.

I have to go to work now, more later.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Ah, and now it's time for more...except that I had a tooth pulled today and the freezing is starting to come out and the damned thing is still bleeding. Please stand by.

Okay....Let's take this twenty years down the line.

A separated Quebec's relationship with Ottawa? Let me see...huge hydro-electric and probably hydrogen resources, a window on the EU that English Canada is unlikely to achieve on its own, a fairly socialist country dividing the Maritimes from the rest of Canada. I'd say we'd have to deal with them on a pretty regular and fair basis. We would keep the reservations on some sort of negotiated basis and likely share a currency.

A separated Alberta? Oil resources worth much less than they are now due to the advent of alternative energey sources. An agricultural sector increasingly dependent on and controlled by huge US agri-business and unable to access markets in much of the world. A very small, very Americanised country tied to a failing giant.

I'm guessing that Ottawa wouldn't be real willing to help these folks out. Most of our food comes from Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Our plastics (made from oil) industries could be supplied from Saskatchewan and BC, as could our natural needs. I guess we might send aid packages and/or peacekeepers when Edmonton attacks Calgary, and we'd have to deal with the natives there (I'm guessing refugee camps in Saskatchewan) because the Alberta government has shown no signs of acknowledging them.

Alberta would adopt the US dollar and suffer because of it.

I'm gonna go lay down now. My face hurts.

 

[moghrabi]

Hi All,

Where is this thread going? Is Al-Qaeda going to bomb Alberta. LOL