Afghanistan Mission Gains Backers.

[Sassylassie]

I'm not at all confused Magnoliaapples, on September 11 "Muslim Radicals Hyjacked Aircraft and attacked the US" get it now." Yep they flew planes into the Twin Towers what don't you understand? Allah Akbar? These Arab Muslims hate the west so much they'd slaughter us like they do their own. Do any reading on Dafar lately, their killing Muslims and Christians over their. What is it you don't get, propaganda or the truth? As far as the facts not being clear, of course they are Muslim Extremist made tapes bragging about their deeds what exactly don't you understand about the truth?

Regarding being "Sore" at Bush he's not our "President" we have a "Prime Minister", you disregard the articles about Canada helping in Afghanistan in favor of "Oh I just don't get it" I doubt you ever will.

 

[MikeyDB]

Great response Sassy!

 

[MikeyDB]

Magnoliapples er whatever...

I love the flavor of those two words together but my fingers balk at typing it


Afghanistan has become an issue for Canadians because we are for everything good and everything bad that comes of it, intimate with the worlds wealthiests out of control adolescent society as we clamor to be more like it all the time... It was simply a matter of time when as oil consumption global warming and enormous imbalances in quality and experience of life coalesced into the beginning creation of a long fuse. And in only a short time the search was begun to find the trigger.

There's no straightforward answer to your question or "the" question of why we find our troops fighting in Afghanistan because the very architecture of a civilization being manipulated by corporations demands a degree of complexity if for no better reason than to render it un-fathomable...

Controling petroleum and natural gas pockets in various areas of the earths crust is certainly part of it but it's not the whole impetus behind an international dynamic that appears to require armed response. There are indeed other energies at work here than simple greed or religious psychosis.

 

[Cosmo]

Oldnug do you realise what a hypocrit you are, you posted an entire page insulting my ethos and our troops for being used and stupid. Ask me if I care at this point what you and your Bush hating friends think, you foul up forum after forum with your propaganda and lies.

Are you kidding me???????? "Foul up" the forum??? Sassy, I've been staying as far away from the political threads around here as I can simply because it's become a right leaning propaganda machine. I get so tired of the neoconservative rhetoric that the only solution is for me to avoid it. If I don't, I end up speaking my own personal truth and not everyone receives that well. There are a ton of right leaning forums out there ... if you really are bent that way, why come here and argue with the centre to left people? It is you out of place, my dear, not OldnUgly.

Feel free to hit the report button on me anytime. As for Neocon bull****, hello you spent the time to type a page insulting me for being a Neocon and all I am Oldnug is a women who spent 20 years watching her husband serve this country with little or no support from the Civies for the work he did. Your response isn't surprising, at least you didn't spit on me like the week spineless Peaceniks did. As for Dishing someone, look in the mirror oldnug because you don't agree with my views you go in for an attack. Me grow up, take the sookie out of your mouth the next time you insult me.

Boo-frickin'-hoo ... so your husband was in the services. Good for him. That does not give you licence to insult people who disagree with you. Your opinions are welcome but your vitriol is not. Your penchant for drama has turned this into a fight.

Oldnug don't ever be so presumptuous to repremend me again, I'm not your child. Thanks for turning this thread into another Bush bashing, tabernac mon enfant.

Well, Sassy, allow me too reprimand you then. No, thankfully, you are not my child, or you'd do time in your room for your attitude. As a fellow adult on this forum I suggest that if you can't take it, you ought not dish it out. I, by the way, can take it. Do your worst. Move this over to Wreck Beach should you desire, but don't go after fellow forum members I respect and expect me to sit back and allow you to do so. Your tantrums don't hold water here. I'm no longer staff who has to sit back and take the trash you so enjoy dishing out. I can be diplomatic when I must be, but that time has passed. If you want to speak your mind be prepared to hear what others think of it.

Ok, back to the topic ... Canadian troops anywhere is all show and little substance. We are not a military country and there is little we can contribute to any war. Hell, we have more ferry boats than we have military ships!! I'm proud of that fact.

I don't believe in war and find Canada's neutral stance honourable. Kinda seems to me that Old is right ... Mein Harper has sent our troops out to garner favour with the bully to the south. There's little more to be gained by committing our military to someone elses' fight.

The topic name of this thread is typically misleading .... yes, the approval numbers have increased, but they are still under 50%. Most of us don't want anything to do with Bush and his wars ... impressing his daddy is his own job and we need not play into his family drama.

 

[Toro]

The US cares squat about Afghanistan. They are in I R A Q at the moment and stretched thin, and bankrupting their country. It's ALL ABOUT OIL.

Why would they bankrupt their country for oil?

If you believe this argument - which I believe is incorrect - the reason why you would be in Iraq was so you wouldn't bankrupt your country by paying through the nose for oil.

Saudi Arabia believes there is at least 140 years of oil.

 

[Cosmo]

Why would they bankrupt their country for oil?

If you believe this argument - which I believe is incorrect - the reason why you would be in Iraq was so you wouldn't bankrupt your country by paying through the nose for oil.

Saudi Arabia believes there is at least 140 years of oil.

Mmmmkaaaaaay, then, Toro ... explain to me exactly why they are in Iraq. Talk to me like I'm a dumb six year old or a knee-jerk leftard because I just don't get it. Seriously. I'm asking for your take on it.

There were no WMD, Iraq has never made a serious terrorist attack on the US (that was our buddy Osama), there is no reason I can see other than Bush Jr. wanted to follow in daddy's footsteps and, on a less personal note, war is good business. Follow the money.

I don't support the war -- any war, actually -- but this one in particular is especially stupid. If Iraq was playing little Hitler and wanting to "cleanse" the world to suit their own flavour of bigotry, and if they were having some success at it as he was, then ya, I could at least understand it. Instead we get a myriad of lies and bullsh*t at every press turn about the whole situation.

To see our little corner of the web in turmoil over it only underscores my belief that baseless aggression begets aggression. Bush's unthinkable, inescusable actions affect things far and wide. I'm not a Kumbya singing pacifist by any stretch. If someone comes looking for an ass whuppin' and is deserving, I feel it's my civic duty to oblige. At the same time, I detest bullies and liars ... both of which are apt descriptions of the US leader. And now our own Harper as well.

Angus Reid has another interesting poll as well ... Even the Americans think he's fulla crap and the majority think he was wrong to go to war. This ain't anti-Bush sentiment, y'all, it's the peoples' voice.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/13392

Bush Misled U.S. on Iraq, Say Americans

Do you think that U.S. president George W. Bush was truthful and honest, based on the intelligence he was given, when he presented the case for war in Iraq, or do you think he deliberately misled Americans to build his case for war?

Oct. 2006
Truthful and honest 39%
Deliberately misled 54%

Dec. 2005
Truthful and honest 45%
Deliberately misled 48%
​

Do you think the United States was right or wrong in going to war with Iraq?

Oct. 2006
Right 38%
Wrong 53%

Mar. 2006
Right 42%
Wrong 53%

Jan. 2006
Right 44%
Wrong 51%

​

 

[Curiosity]

Aw no there are some hot feelings here .... because we are arguing things over which we have little control....

MagnoliaApples

Feel better now? You came here with an agenda - you got your wish -

I would feel better if you had your facts on target - but realize people like you disregard fact in favor of your opinions.

MikeyDB

Good post, thoughts en pointe and makes total sense. You give me hope there is something still in the future of Canadians and the people of the U.S. which can be mended even if we have to circumvent our governments...maybe together we can cause deep change but fighting among ourselves is futile and wasteful. Adding more hate to the pie.

Sassy

You are in the wrong place arguing your position which is filled with passion. That is always going to use up your goodness girl.... People will believe what they wish. You have every right to argue your position and I think you were taken by surprise because OldNugly really bit back at you - when prior to this he has been a comfortable forum-mate and perhaps a few hot buttons were pushed. I think it would be different if you were both face to face having a chat...forums are bloody cold....but brutallyl honest too (which is a good thing).... besides you can't face to face with Old Nug right now - you'd give that nasty Nova Scotian cold to him....because you two would end up hugging!

Cosmo

We (Sassy and I and others) were invited here by you - after being dumped a couple of times. Our philosophical beliefs do not match up with the majority of people here so you again impose that restriction on our free speech? That is a weak charge Cosmo - if you are going to operate a forum, you might want to be prepared for dissention - because through discussion and debate - there is always dissention -
We aren't all robots sitting here playing games, sharing recipies and talking about whose beer is best.

Give a bit of length to your rope you hold so tightly eh? Use your great intellect in advisory capacity and allow people some freedom even if it upsets you. We are not perfect - not any of us.

People here seem to be mixing up Iraq and Afghanistan

I am still asking the question of the Canadians here:

Why are you in Afganistan?...
The answer given is to take down Usama bin Laden who lead the attack on the U.S. on 9/11.
Canada must have known that country wasn't a theatre of military ops which would offer an "in and out" mission - much of the land impossible to set up any kind of defensive or offensive positions to any military well equipped or not.

Canada bless their hearts were not equipped in manpower or machine for that spot in hell and I believe
Canada should have opted out - for they must have known it was never a "peacekeeping mission" especially when some Canadians now say "We were in there to take down binLaden".... that is not a peackeeping mission.

So....however we wish to blame the evil empire to the south... for whatever reasons they invaded Iraq..has nothing to do with why Canada is in Afghanistan!

That is the topic here...not Bush, not Iraq, not Harper........ it would seem there are two dominant topics here.... one the original discussion..... but with the constant introduction of what the U.S. is up to.... I ask you:

What has it got to do with Canada ???? Why is Canada still in Afganistan when the mission has clearly changed beyond what your advisors offered and signed off for. If you feel that strongly and feel "scammed" by your political people....demand your military be returned home to safety.

If you want to start yet another Bush/right wingnut/ Crazy Cheney/ insane Iraq invasion / Rumsfeld should be hanged topic..... start one and stick to that topic....and get it out of your systems....

Maybe some of you will make some sense instead of flying all over the map in the middle east with OIL as the prize to be won.

I hate to see trolls arriving with all their innocent questions - clearly pointing the way to a flame war....back off !

If that can't be done and Cosmo you are yet again going to weed out the "too righty folk".... do it .....
but I don't want to see censorship rear its ugly head ever.... people have a right to speak their thought no matter how distasteful.... there is too much intellect floating around here for us to waste our time
chucking marshmallows instead of discussing possible solutions and mending fences.

Unless Canada does not want that.... wants complete separation..... in which case.....you would fail.

 

[Cosmo]

Aw no there are some hot feelings here .... because we are arguing things over which we have little control....

So true! But it keeps rearing its ugly head, Curiosity, and I get so tired of seeing one-sided rhetoric on it.

Cosmo

We (Sassy and I and others) were invited here by you - after being dumped a couple of times. Our philosophical beliefs do not match up with the majority of people here so you again impose that restriction on our free speech? That is a weak charge Cosmo - if you are going to operate a forum, you might want to be prepared for dissention - because through discussion and debate - there is always dissention -
We aren't all robots sitting here playing games, sharing recipies and talking about whose beer is best.

Give a bit of length to your rope you hold so tightly eh?

First, Curiosity, I have no rope to give. I'm no longer on staff here and am no longer restricted to being diplomatic about things I find upsetting. I dropped the reins some time back. I'm a regular member just like you or Sassy.

For the record, I find you one of the few folks I can actually have a sensible political conversation with. You and I have done so through email and I have gained some great insights from you. You give things thought and offer up honest opinions rather than vainly trying to wrassle me to your side of the spectrum. I respect that. I don't always agree with your point of view, but I am always willing to listen to it because you put more effort into expressing than you do into insulting.

What I hate are bullies. People who flippantly toss out what they consider witty insults without considering the feelings of the people they attack. Political discussions often devolve into that kind of garbage. I love having differing points of view ... it gives me food for thought and makes my experience at forums worthwhile. I'm not much for the kazoo and lampshade stuff and would rather have meaningful discussions, so when people turn these threads into their own personal tanks to roll over others, it annoys me.

I no longer have anything to do with the running of this forum so I am now free to express these feelings. If I don't like someone or what they say, I am now able to speak up. You know the value of that! I'm as dedicated to a left leaning perspective as many folks are to their right leaning beliefs. We're never going to agree, but there is no need to belittle anyone for their stand. If someone dishes it out they best be prepared to take it right back. That isn't censorship, Curiosity, it's speaking up to those who attempt to impose their will on others. And even if I were inclined to censor anyone, I have no power to do so. *shrug* Truth is I have no desire to censor people but I am inclined to meet inappropriate behaviour with an equal lack of courtesy.

People here seem to be mixing up Iraq and Afghanistan

I noticed that too, but that was the direction the thread was wandering so I went with it.

Canada bless their hearts were not equipped in manpower or machine for that spot in hell and I believe Canada should have opted out - for they must have known it was never a "peacekeeping mission" especially when some Canadians now say "We were in there to take down binLaden".... that is not a peackeeping mission.

Well said. I agree. I can see no point for Canadians to involve themselves other than Harper brown-nosing. Sad.

 

[mabudon]

Again, Curiousity, the problem is that most folks who think beyond talking points really don't understand WHY we're in Afghanistan now and don't know how to counter it- the slick propaganda machine that led the US down the garden path of extreme polarization has begun its nefarious work up here and "with us or against us" and "support the troops or ELSE" and other such absolutes have crept into the political debates. That is why you don't hear many proposals of solutions- if I felt so inclined, I would look up one of my posts from a few months ago in which I stated what I believed at the time (and still do believe) to be the only proper (albeait phoney-victory-free) way out...

We admit that the mission is now officially hopeless (and by doing so in less time than all the others who have done so in the past, making us appear as if we have some sense of actual judgement that is not impaired by feel-good symbolism and all that stupid crap) and pull the HELL out. Help local governments in whatever way they like to help contain the fighting and security issues arising from within Afghanistan(tho this would prolong the mess, troops from other countries in the area would help sort things out a LOT quicker, I think, tho it would be messy, and Afghanistan IS going to be some sort of sattelite power, a weak one, to one of the "heavies" over there no matter WHAT kind of "western style democracy" gets imposed) and basically lock it down- since the nation isn't a real country, flyovers can be conducted as needed to keep the situation in check.... seal the borders and wait for the dust to settle, it's the only real way...

Didya catch that piece on the news yesterday about how Karzais "government" was in negotiations with the Taliban, BTW??? I thought "we don't negotiate with Terr'rists" but apparently sometimes it is the prudent thing to do...

Anyways, because of the sound-bite culture that has permeated all forms of discussion (so it would seem) no-one will assess the workability of my proposal- I expect a few 9-11 references and some attempts at shaming me for not supporting the troops, but no actualy analysis or nothing. Hell, I swear I've seen someone (either damngrumpy or oldandUG) post the same damn idea before, and the response was people screaming at them in bold about how whoever proposed it must be a traitor etc.

I seriously try to keep things civil until a complete jackass shows up, at which point I have to show them for the fools they are.

OH and Curiousity one last point- by mentioning the Haiti misadventure, I was in no way intending to suggest that since I disagreed with that I automatically agreed with this Afghanistan business and I don't think anyon eelse would say that either, they are two completely different things and I don't draw any real paralells between them, besides securing labour markets and resource markets they're pretty individually separated I think, kinda, and certainly in my mind, my problems with the Afghan fiasco are solely based on the Afghan fiasco in and of itself

 

[Curiosity]

Cosmo

Thank you for taking my message to you the way I hoped you would. It is more important to me to try and understand where Canadians are coming from these days - it seems the country is wandering around without much direction when it comes to the global stage and especially being influenced by the people in the U.S.

The sleeping "elephant" comes to mind - but it is awake and on a rampage.

I like the people on this forum and feel great to be back here, but I am not here to change anyone's position on things - I don't understand Canadian politics at all because I left before I cared about anything except eating, sleeping and working..... shallow like a cookie sheet. Now Canada is getting its cojones if you will - standing up on the world's stage and making itself known and that is good....I am paying attention. I want Canadians to know where they are headed and how they can get there safely.

What is negative - are the way people are voicing their frustrations - blame laying everything on the U.S. as if they are being "led" when they have all the options they need..... and the answer would be:

"NO Thanks".... find someone else.... that is why I keep nagging "why"?

And whether you are using the whizzie stick or not Cosmo....CanCon is your home, will always be your home....and we are your guests. That's not a bad feeling at all. Just don't mind if we spill a few crumbs
on the way - nobody means anyone harm....nobody intends to change minds and hearts..... but to find understanding among ourselves.....which should be the job of an informative government....which neither of us enjoy!

So if our MPs and Congresspeople aren't spilling the beans and are giving us "by the book pap".... we have to take care of ourselves and forums seem to be the way to do it. Getting the answers on our own.

 

[MikeyDB]

Mabudon

The reason why "Afghanistan", the locus of international terrorism according to America...yes those same folk who told the world we should all be terrified of the enormous stockpiles of WMD held in the armory of the evildoer's in Iraq...is frequently morphed into the Iraq invasion discussion is because the media machinery can't permit the lies and exaggerations of the Bush administration to be looked-at too awfully intensely or the whole sham will come crumbling down around their ears and to redirect attention from the real source of conflict.

Those folk torturing prisoners in Abu Ghraib were driven to that frenzy (not actually commanded by their superiors and Donald Rumsfeld) by the inhumanity of the Taliban and the persecution of women and all that terrible terrorist stuff originating in Afghanistan….

It’s the same reason that the Saudi family has never been held to account for their participation and you can bet there was lots……

It’s the same reason that the United States and Britain have never launched a similar peacekeeping mission in Israel to establish a climate more suitable to dialogue than cordite.

It’s the same reason why the “democracies” of Canada and the Untied States and of course the US lapdog Tony Blair… all warned Palestinians that if Hamas were to remain in power as a democratically elected governing body that Israel would be allowed to keep taxes collected that would normally transfer to and be used by the Palestinian authority and why Canada and the United States and Britain took steps to curtail Palestinian access to foreign money.

Now who exactly are those controlling media and hence the perceptions of why Afghanistan requires soaking in international blood?

Why of course it’s the same people who are actively generating the real locus of terrorism and instability in the Middle East, the Israelis!

The strategy for preventing criticism of the Israeli terrorist machine has always been an energetic up-welling of denial and righteous outrage labelling such criticism as Anti-Semitism and racist...

I have little doubt we’ll see that repeated here…

The Saudi family has multi-billion dollar investments and interests in the United States and so do Jewish Americans supporting the right-wing elements in Israel. You don’t have to imagine for a moment that the various media empires and other industries heavily invested in by Israel’s supporters in the U.S. don’t appreciate the fatted calf. That shiny tap that keeps oil pouring into North America is also the same shiny tap that allows Saudi money to replenish the war-chests of an administration that doesn’t care about who the Israelis or the Palestinians are “right” or “wrong”, but is keenly interested in money and maintaining its power.

What’s required of course is some other location, not Israel heaven forbid! designated as the “Terrorism Capital of the World”. This allows the puppets in Washington and London and as it turns out, Ottawa to focus what little intellect resides in all three governments on the “issue” of the Taliban and the volatility of Afghanistan….

One of the original set-ups for legitimizing the subsequent invasion of Iraq was the “potential” for those huge stockpiles of Sarin and chemical weapons of all kinds to be distributed among “terrorist” factions across the Middle East….

The translation of course of this stealth-disingenuousness is that the Israeli government sitting in Washington didn’t want to risk having their military facing chemical weapon attacks.

Afghanistan can and is being used by the Carlyle Group and Richard Chaney’s pals to amass enormous fortunes in weapons production and of course this is also the engine that powers weapons research and development. It’s a lovely little country (Afghanistan) where depleted uranium shells and precision smart bombs and all the favourite tools of American foreign policy can be tested and used without difficulty since of course between the Soviets and the mujahideen dukeing it out for years there’s really no certain way of determining whether that Afghani family did actually discover an unexploded Soviet ordinance or were bombed into the great beyond by American pilots stoned on amphetamines….

And focus is taken off of Israeli terrorism accepted by George Bush and as stated by other fine statesmen … “the right of Israel to protect itself from terrorism” masking the terrorism of Israel and affording Israel carte blanche when it comes to news coverage because there are after all many many more and far more terrible things happening in Afghanistan…don’tcha know…

Am I hinting at a “Jewish Conspiracy” of some kind here?????

Not at all!

A conspiracy relies on subterfuge and no one can ever accuse the Israelis of subtlety.

So it’s ninety-percent political covering of asses while permitting the out-of-control barbaric child….Israel to practice its own version of genocide and holocaust on someone else…the Palestinians and if luck is with us Oy Vey maybe a few million Arabs as well…while yes securing petroleum and fossil fuel resources and yes machinery to allow Carlyle Raytheon and American defence contractor industries a hay-day.

It’s a little convoluted but it’s working just fine!

 

[Curiosity]

Mabudon/MikeyDB

Wow - I go to make some coffee and come back seeing this topic rescued....some "muscle" posts being made...some great unveiling of ideas to ponder upon and I thank you.

Oh boy - this is where we learn from forums...

I'll shut up now and read....!