Adults' Capacity to Discipline Children

[FiveParadox]

In the Senate of Canada, on the 5th of April, the Honourable Céline Hervieux-Payette, P.C., a Senator of the Division of Bedford for Québec introduced Bill S-207, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (protection of children). Mme. Hervieux-Payette wishes to remove the provision of the Criminal Code of Canada that exempts parents, teachers and other adults of authority from using force to correct the behaviour of their children.

1. Section 43 of the Criminal Code is repealed.

Click here to read the entire bill in English.
Cliquetez içi pour lire le projet de loi entier en français.

43. Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.

Click here to read the entire Act in English.
Cliquetez içi pour lire la Loi entière en français.

:arrow: My Opinion on Bill S-207

I support this legislation entirely; I don't think that there is any reason that parents or teachers, or anyone else, should have to use physical force to discipline their children. Children should not be injured for doing something wrong — I don't think that any other segment of society would tolerate a strategy such as that, so I don't think that it would be appropriate to continue to give parents and other adults the right to punish children with force, where they don't have a voice in terms of their own legislative protection. I hope that Mme. Hervieux-Payette convinces other Senators and Members of Parliament of the merit in this piece of work.

:?: Sources
1. Cliquetez içi pour le site Web du Parlement du Canada.

 

[JonB2004]

RE: Adults' Capacity to D

I support this bill.

 

[Finder]

In theory I agree with it, but in practice when you have a bratty little kid who is ruling the parents, I think sometimes you just have to smack their butt. I've never done it myself but I don't disagree with people who have. Man my father freaken trammatized me with spankings. And look at me I'm still kewl and all.... arn't I?

 

[Curiosity]

Doesn't that sound neat and clean?

What would a teacher or sports coach or even a parent do when two kids are getting down and dirty with each other a fight.

Who or what will stop it and who will separate them from tearing each others' faces off?

Start talking to them nicely?

As usual - only half thought out.

 

[JonB2004]

RE: Adults' Capacity to D

I didn't think about it like that.

 

[Finder]

Wednesday's Child, I think this is the first time I agree with you. Theirs something called being a little to PC. This is it. I've seen enough Bratty kids in my extended family to know if this bill passed and I had kids I might end up going to jail or something by spanking my kid. lol.

I don't know I think parents and teachers should be progressive but theirs a point where you know you just can't get threw to the kid anymore and if the kids learn they can get away with murder they will.


EDIT: It's an old Liberal value from enlightenment times. That conservatives or victorian families used to treat children like small adults. The enlighhtenment philophers on the other hand said this was wrong and children need a childhood and need to be treated like kids. Putting a kid in time out or reasoning with them is fine and all but sooner or later you will have a good who just won't listen to reason because they arenot mature... a good spanking may give them something to think about as they mature with a sour ass a little faster.

 

[Sassylassie]

Picture this Scenerio: An out of control teenager is trying to leave the house to go to a party and get drunk, the parent opposes this and tries to stop said teen. The teen can push and shove and be verbally abusive and the adult is "What" suppose to stand there and have dialog with this teen. Sorry, but I have over 20 nieces and nephews and this Scenerio has been played out many times and the parents that had to resort to using physical force (dragging the child to their room) have healthy adults, the ones who used dialog have dead beats, with no sense of Responsibility.

The Government should butt out of the Dynamics of a Family, we have enough out of control Youth with out putting another straight jacket on Parents.

 

[Finder]

Sassylassie, you shouldn't be able to beat the child, but you should be able to use just enough force to control one.

 

[Curiosity]

I guess my background has a long term memory of kids playing...

I worked as a playground director for the City of Vancouver during the summers when I was in high school and then after I left school for a couple of years...inside the community centers as well.

You would not believe the raw emotions kids can display when worked up into anger.

Standing around cautioning them isn't going to make it and I've had to call men to separate some of the bigger kids both boys and girls because I wasn't about to lose my own face.

Corporal intervention is necessary and should be allowed, or we will see many kids hurt because the law wasn't well thought out.

It also puts law enforcement in ridiculous positions, as will some med-evac employees - who won't be allowed to wrestle a sick child in convulsions to the ground to restrain him/her.

 

[Curiosity]

I would support any law which gets some professional input from real people having to obey this new law before it is put into effect.

Regarding parental control. My answer is and always will be - stay out of the house - government people.

If a child is injured in any way, the authorities can have their moment of justified rage, but let parents discipline as they know their children best.

If the child is out of control, it will escalate into the school or playground or sporting events - then the people in charge can make some decisions.

 

[FiveParadox]

It should be noted that Section 2 of this Act would delay the coming into force of the legislation for one year after the date upon which it received the Royal Assent; according to the explanatory notes, "t provides the Government with up to one year between the dates of royal assent and coming into force, which can be used to educate Canadians and to coordinate with the provinces."

 

[Sassylassie]

Five wrote: "It provides the Government with up to one year between the dates of royal assent and coming into force, which can be used to educate Canadians and to coordinate with the provinces."

Educate, how? When I read the above I had a mental image of me with a Tazer Gun pointed at one of my really nasty nephews. It only leaves two little burn marks. I've spent too much time today in the sun.

 

[Colpy]

Now then, I know I'm a dinosaur, and a non-politically correct one at that, but kids occassionally need a solid boot in the arse. It focuses them wonderfully.

And who the HELL does the government think they are, to try and enter my home and tell me the proper method to correct my children, when I have done them no harm?

Now THAT is outrageous.

 

[Curiosity]

Bless Ya Colby!!

Can't get more clear than that!!!

Dinosaur = hands on experience

PC = idiocy tap dancing around fact

 

[Kreskin]

One of my clients is a pediatrician who is writing a book about effective discipline of children. Chatting with him was an eye opener. He said that most parents who have problem kids are the ones who also need discipline.

Example: Kid is always playing on the couch that backs up to a window on the second story. Of course you don't want your child falling out the window so the parents is always yelling, "stay off the couch..I told you to stay away from..how many times" etc. The kid is served negativity ad naseam. Rather than yell at the kid an extra 100 times in their life over the dangers of the couch, simply don't put the couch against the window. Problem solved.

He said effective parenting (and discipline) is as much not creating the environment that often results in shouting/spanking. Don't wait for your child to run down the china aisle of the store before telling them not to. Train them quietly to understand that when you enter a store you hold hands and walk together. The result - another 25 times in their lives they need not be yelled at.

When something does happen that needs a lesson learned it actually is effective if you haven't already yelled at the kid 10 times that day.

Reflecting on our situation as we spoke, he made a lot of sense. Discipline isn't just negative (or positive) reinforcement. It's effective guidance that creates the environment for success.

 

[Curiosity]

Kreskin

Most kids will tune into responsible behavior if they know the rules up front.

Children dislike being embarrassed or ordered around as to the possibilities of bad behavior (much of which they hadn't thought of) immediately before or during activities which aren't acceptable.

Praise is worth its weight in gold.

Quiet talks on a regular basis about public conduct in restaurants and stores gives the kids an opportunity to explore "why" they need to behave in other places than their home. Treat them with respect and they will live up to it in most cases.

If possible don't compare the child with other siblings or friends or relatives. Each child should be treated as an individual with his or her own personality and character.

Some adults were never taught themselves, and I wonder why there isn't more easy accessible information out there to give parents some good basic information on dealing with their children.

Always fascinates me one of the most important life events has not come with an instruction manual: Raising Kids!

 

[Jay]

The children should "get it" once a week whether they "need it" or not.

 

[Kreskin]

Kreskin

Most kids will tune into responsible behavior if they know the rules up front.

Children dislike being embarrassed or ordered around as to the possibilities of bad behavior (much of which they hadn't thought of) immediately before or during activities which aren't acceptable.

Praise is worth its weight in gold.

Quiet talks on a regular basis about public conduct in restaurants and stores gives the kids an opportunity to explore "why" they need to behave in other places than their home. Treat them with respect and they will live up to it in most cases.

If possible don't compare the child with other siblings or friends or relatives. Each child should be treated as an individual with his or her own personality and character.

Some adults were never taught themselves, and I wonder why there isn't more easy accessible information out there to give parents some good basic information on dealing with their children.

Always fascinates me one of the most important life events has not come with an instruction manual: Raising Kids!

I agree, most parents weren't taught themselves.

Almost every kid (pre-school-ish) will automatically reach for a parents hand when they get out of a car in a parking lot. The reason is, most parents could not afford for their child to make an error in a parking lot and thus spent the time to coach them on it until it was automatic. If the parents used the same quiet coaching on other aspects of life it would be successful too.

It was interesting that the pediatrician liked praising kids but not rewarding them. He felt that "paying" them to be good was just as bad as creating the environment for them not to succeed.

My little one purrs like a cat when I tell her how well she did. It makes me feel good to see her feel good about herself.

 

[Curiosity]

Kreskin

Tiny folk think sincere and honest praise is the highest reward. Anyone can buy a toy.

Oops I forgot something. Restaurants often pose a terrible problem for families. Kids sitting still seems to bring out everything bad in their behavior. Meals out should be shorter
than adult meals so the kids don't get zoned out and bored.

This can also be practiced at home with a "dress up" meal on occasion, practicing behavior, showing them what's cool and how to use different utensils if necessary. It could be combined with a new movie to watch or a new game to play afterward - like a
night out on the town - only at home.

They learn the rules pretty quickly.

 

[Outta here]

ahhh yes. This is a tricky little balancing act, and I doubt any law is going to be able to address it to any degree of effectiveness.

Having spent many years working with youth, I agree wholeheartedly that discipline is sadly lacking in today's youth. We are seeing an entire generation of kids now who do not have ANY respect for anything - I'm not just talking about parents and authority figures, I'm talking about property, their fellow human beings, and often even themselves. This isn't a blanket statement about all kids, mind you, because I know many who are fine people - but there is definately a shift in respect levels.

Unfortunately, there are parents who do not understand the difference between discipline and abuse. It can be a fine line.

My feelings on this are that there are very very rare situations when a spank is needed, and effective. Up to a certain age, kids do not have the capacity to reason out the concept of consequences. But if you start right off the hop with them establishing boundaries of acceptable behaviour, the need for spankings becomes almost redundant. They should be a last resort only.

Parents definately need to take a firmer hand, but giving some of them permission to take that literally only reinforces some already poor parenting techniques. This is my concern - for it is often just too easy to start smacking kids rather than putting in the time and effort to enforce consequences - especially if those consequences are going to somehow impact the parent. Time outs require the parent to monitor that time out. Ending an outing means the parent won't get their errands done, or their cup coffee at the mall with a friend. Parenting is about sacrificing too - but I maintain that the efforts take only a few years when the kids are very small, and the payoff is less need for discipline as they get older. This has been my experience anyway.

So for me, the problem lies in the fact that there's no way to define the shades of grey when a smack is an appropriate means of discipline. Laws that are meant to protect children disempower parents, and laws that empower parents place some children at high risk to be abused.

Is there any way to legislate common sense?