A small step toward First Nations accountability

[Cannuck]

Really? How so?

I'm still waiting for your answer. You are the one that wanted debate remember.

 

[CDNBear]

I'm still waiting for your answer.

Oh I'll answer your questions. As soon as you go back to the beginning of the thread and actually answer the questions I've posed to you.

That would be logically consistent.

You are the one that wanted debate remember.

I do. But remember, you're here for entertainment, and babbling about logical consistency, not debate, discussion or actually being logically consistent. Besides that, I haven't been attempting to debate you. I know what you think, I've proven you wrong before. I simply just like posting the facts to your BS, so people following along that don't know, get a good dose of reality.

That's why people like Gh and Das admire my patience with trolls and the cognitively challenged.

 

[Cannuck]

I'm not looking for a victory, I'm looking for a challenging debate

Besides that, I haven't been attempting to debate you.

Do you want to debate or don't you?

 

[CDNBear]

Do you want to debate or don't you?

The question is, do you?

You haven't shown signs of legitimate debate to date, in any conversation I've had with you. From the state of Islamic states to this topic.

Your MO is predictably, ignore, selectively quote, twist and ignore some more.

If you really want a debate, go back to the beginning and show cause for your statement...

"Get off the gov't tit."

When I dismantle the opinion you put forth, concede if you can not support it with facts and we move on to the next point.

A legitimate debate has very simple rules, you concede to fact you can not refute, you support opinion with fact.

Do you think you have what it takes to debate me?

 

[Cannuck]

The question is, do you?

Not with you. As I've already said, I'm here for entertainment and to highlight my pet peeve (which is logical inconsistencies). That is what I have done. It is what I am doing and it is what I am continuing to do.

Do you think you have what it takes to debate me?

With both hands tied behind my back. Unfortunately, this isn't the forum. I've offered my assistance to create a heavily moderated debate forum here but nothing ever came of it. Without that moderation, all that usually happens is somebody ends up prattling on about how they've handed somebody's ass to them over and over and over again. Serious debate rarely if ever requires that.

 

[CDNBear]

Not with you. As I've already said, I'm here for entertainment and to highlight my pet peeve (which is logical inconsistencies). That is what I have done. It is what I am doing and it is what I am continuing to do.

Well then we have common ground. You get entertained by being shown to be wrong, and I get entertained by proving you wrong.

With both hands tied behind my back.

And yet you can't take up the challenge. Which I actually predicted.

Unfortunately, this isn't the forum.

What an excellent excuse.

I've offered my assistance to create a heavily moderated debate forum here but nothing ever came of it.

I asked for the same thing.

Without that moderation, all that usually happens is somebody ends up prattling on about how they've handed somebody's ass to them over and over and over again.

Generally because their opponent fails to make even the weakest of case. Beyond "I says so".

Serious debate rarely if ever requires that.

It doesn't require it at all, ever. You'd know that if you could actually debate.

But then again, you aren't capable of serious debate. Hence the shying away from the challenge, and the weak excuses for it.

Shall we get back to mutually entertaining each other? It's fun watching you ignore evidence you can't disprove.

 

[Cannuck]

It doesn't require it at all, ever. You'd know that if you could actually debate.

I was trying to be kind to you as that is your MO....sorry you missed it.

 

[PoliticalNick]

I know this is a real touchy subject with much valid debate on all sides but here is my opinion.

Fact - Our ancestors bought Canada from their ancestors for some rifles and blankets and shiny beads...maybe not a good deal but a done deal.

Fact - Natives have been treated horribly in various degrees over the last 300-400 years, subjected to racism and unfair policies, pushed onto reserves etc, but not by me or most Canadians alive today.

Fact - Both sides have dishonoured various treaties at various times but the First Nations are the only ones that want to keep coming back saying the previous deal was a bad one and renegotiate.

I have made bad deals in my life and had to live with them and don't expect my grandchildren or great grandchildren to go back to the other party's heirs and ask for a better deal.

The solution I offer up, in the interest of putting it all to bed forever.
1- One last negotiation that is full and final. If this includes land and monetary payments ok but no coming back for more later.
2- Once the deal is done we all become Canadians with equal rights and responsibilities. No more tax free status, no more free education and health care and such. No more annual transfer payments, no more free ride on Canadian infrastructure.

I know this post will piss off some people but it is only my opinion on fixing the issue.

 

[CDNBear]

I was trying to be kind to you...

I'm sure you actually believe that. The sad fact is, you haven't the skill or the fortitude to back it up.

as that is your MO....

I freely admit that when dealing with willfully blind bigots, troll, or people with cognitive and comprehension issues, I lower myself to their level of discussion.

...sorry you missed it.

I didn't miss anything that wasn't made thoroughly clear. Like your fear of a serious debate with me.

 

[DaSleeper]

Oh I'll answer your questions. As soon as you go back to the beginning of the thread and actually answer the questions I've posed to you.

That would be logically consistent.

I do. But remember, you're here for entertainment, and babbling about logical consistency, not debate, discussion or actually being logically consistent. Besides that, I haven't been attempting to debate you. I know what you think, I've proven you wrong before. I simply just like posting the facts to your BS, so people following along that don't know, get a good dose of reality.

That's why people like Gh and Das admire my patience with trolls and the cognitively challenged.

Arguing with some people is like fishing in the desert, and expecting a big catch
I would say that this is the ultimate in patience....
Or futility......................

 

[Cannuck]

2- Once the deal is done we all become Canadians with equal rights and responsibilities. No more tax free status, no more free education and health care and such. No more annual transfer payments, no more free ride on Canadian infrastructure.

Absolutely not. If they want to be Canadians, be Canadians. If they want to be their own "nation", be their own "nation". The problem now is that they want the best of both worlds.

It doesn't require it at all, ever. You'd know that if you could actually debate.

I freely admit that when dealing with willfully blind bigots, troll, or people with cognitive and comprehension issues, I lower myself to their level of discussion.

You do realize that every time you contradict yourself or fall victim to another of your logical inconsistencies, I will point it out?

 

[CDNBear]

I know this is a real touchy subject with much valid debate on all sides but here is my opinion.

It's not touchy if you use commonsense, logic, critical thought and intelligence.

Fact - Our ancestors bought Canada from their ancestors for some rifles and blankets and shiny beads...maybe not a good deal but a done deal.

Ummm, no.

Fact - Natives have been treated horribly in various degrees over the last 300-400 years, subjected to racism and unfair policies, pushed onto reserves etc, but not by me or most Canadians alive today.

True.

Fact - Both sides have dishonoured various treaties at various times but the First Nations are the only ones that want to keep coming back saying the previous deal was a bad one and renegotiate.

False. We keep coming back demanding that illegal acts be righted and treaties be lived up to.

I have made bad deals in my life and had to live with them and don't expect my grandchildren or great grandchildren to go back to the other party's heirs and ask for a better deal.

Neither do I.

The solution I offer up, in the interest of putting it all to bed forever.
1- One last negotiation that is full and final. If this includes land and monetary payments ok but no coming back for more later.
2- Once the deal is done we all become Canadians with equal rights and responsibilities. No more tax free status, no more free education and health care and such. No more annual transfer payments, no more free ride on Canadian infrastructure.

You ignore the fact that there are many Nations, that have differing treaties and will want to negotiate there own deals.

I know this post will piss off some people but it is only my opinion on fixing the issue.

It didn't piss me off. But I would suggest that you look into the treaties. There are over 400 of them. And nothing was sold for just blankets beads and rifles.

 

[Skatchie]

Please explain the genealogy of what it means to be 100% metis.

I self identify, and live in the spirit of Metis culture, not just partial Native trash culture.

When did Iroquois inhabit the area of Red River?

When the Metis from Quebec moved West, many of them had Iroquios blood. they didn't live as iroquois, or as cree or as any useless indians. they lived as Metis. Metis have their own culture. We aren't half breeds whether any of you or our ridiculously currupt government officials think so or not. We had our own language, culture, and way of life. Being metis is an entirely different culture than being part Indian.

 

[CDNBear]

Arguing with some people is like fishing in the desert, and expecting a big catch
I would say that this is the ultimate in patience....
Or futility......................

Half dozen of one, 6 of the other.

But have you noticed how much more patient I am, now that i'm working with troubled youth?

There is a definite similarity between some people here and teenage youth with a great many issues.

You do realize that every time you contradict yourself or fall victim to another of your logical inconsistencies, I will point it out?

Could you point one out for me? That's a rhetorical question by the way. I don't think you could actually identify one without taking serious leaps in logic.

Because if one uses logic, one could only come to the conclusion, that you can not seriously debate with willfully blind bigots, trolls, or people with cognitive and comprehension issues.

And I know you won't get this, but that's why I used the word "dealing", and not debating.

But you go right on thinking you got me. It makes me LOL for real.

If only you could actually debate me, instead of chase me around thinking you're gunna catch me doing something you don't like.

 

[PoliticalNick]

False. We keep coming back demanding that illegal acts be righted and treaties be lived up to.

As I said, both sides have done things wrong.

You ignore the fact that there are many Nations, that have differing treaties and will want to negotiate there own deals.

Don't you think its time to realize this is counter-productive. We all need to be one nation.

It didn't piss me off. But I would suggest that you look into the treaties. There are over 400 of them. And nothing was sold for just blankets beads and rifles.

The 'blankets & beads' was meant only in the context of it may not have been a good deal in hindsight.

 

[CDNBear]

I self identify, and live in the spirit of Metis culture, not just partial Native trash culture.

Native trash culture?

Care to elaborate?

When the Metis from Quebec moved West, many of them had Iroquios blood.

What is this Iroquois you speak of?

they didn't live as iroquois, or as cree or as any useless indians.

How did they live?

they lived as Metis.

And what's that?

Metis have their own culture.

And it is?

We aren't half breeds whether any of you or our ridiculously currupt government officials think so or not.

You aren't? Then what does Metis mean?

We had our own language, culture, and way of life.

And the First Nations didn't?

Being metis is an entirely different culture than being part Indian.

Really?

Seriously, do you know what Metis means?

As I said, both sides have done things wrong.

No real arguments there.

Accept I must ask, what wrong doing are you referring to, in regards to the First Nations?

Don't you think its time to realize this is counter-productive.

What is counter productive? Acknowledging the differing peoples of the First Nations?

Isn't that sort of anti multicultural?

We all need to be one nation.

The Haudenosaunee are. Longer then Canada has been a Nation.

The 'blankets & beads' was meant only in the context of it may not have been a good deal in hindsight.

I gotchya.

But then you have to understand that the treaties were written to benefit the Europeans. They were the first to make them "living documents", so they could exploit resources.

The tables were turned when the Courts began to apply that same "living document" to cases brought forth by First Nations.

That's why the law must be administered equally.

 

[Cannuck]

The Haudenosaunee are. Longer then Canada has been a Nation.

So have the Palestinians.

 

[CDNBear]

So have the Palestinians.

I agree, so what's your point?

And please don't try your logical inconsistency crap again. Go back and look at the word "context" in my reply, then go back and read what you posted. And if you still don't understand, get help.

Not only was I logically consistent, I logically tore apart another of your absurd claims.

 

[Cannuck]

I agree, so what's your point?

That the Palestinians were a nation before Canada....Christ, is it really that hard to follow?

 

[Skatchie]

Native trash culture?

they are succubus stealing form the Metis by even pretending to be Metis when they are not. the Metis with Indian heritage are the real half breeds and are the worst thing that ever happened to Metis. Metis are Metis, we are our own people, not half breeds.

What is this Iroquois you speak of?

My ancestors and many other Metis ancestors, were descendants of french and iroquois in Quebec.

How did they live?

they broke the land, had their own language and spoke many others to be merchants, had their own music, dance, and culture in every way. They lived together, they had their own laws and way of life. They were the first people to regulate hunting, they broke the Hudson bay company's monopoly, and they traded with whites and Indians and acted as mediators and go betweens for trade, or outright merchants for the trade itself, anyways.

QUOTE]

Basically, it is pure ignorance to think Metis didn't have their own culture and weren't a separate group of people, their own Nation, in Canada. The English have Norse and Germanic heritage, right? Or for this example let's pretend they do. that doesn't mean when you cross a Norwegian and German today you get a Brit, does it? of course not. So why would you get a Metis today if you cross an Indian with a White? a Metis was a cross between Indian and White hundreds of years ago, but they developed their own culture and lived that culture, it is ignorant to think that by going back and crossing different races TODAY that it means they are part of a culture that existed long ago in their own culture. ignorance, pure and simple. I don't care what the actual word for Metis means. The key point is that that is was created a Metis not what creates a Metis. Big difference.