Your real problem is that you think this stuff is true. Justify that position first, then it might be worth the effort to figure out what it means.
A challenge to our dear Christian friends.
- Thread starter mrgrumpy
- Start date
Which one, the one that says any topic in Revelation can be found to have other things written in other portions of the Bible?
Or the one that says if I promote something based on what I have read somewhere I should give you the reference that promoted that conclusion?
I think all this stuff fits together quite nicely, yes.
I can find 20 different variations on the mechanics of the universe and things are still being written about it. All Scripture is already there, it only has to be sorted through.
It means all that Scripture has one single meaning.
Nobody know what will be the final thought on the fate of what goes into a black-hole. It may end up being that what goes in gets ejected out (the mass that would be around our tropics would make the area that would be our north and south poles the path of least resistance)
The material that makes up our oceans will one day evaporate, solar winds would push it away from the sun. When that happens, does it go off in whispers of material or is it funneled into something resembling a string. Vapor turning to ice at some far off distance from the sun. Water has weight, will it get sucked into the sun instead?
Or the one that says if I promote something based on what I have read somewhere I should give you the reference that promoted that conclusion?
I think all this stuff fits together quite nicely, yes.
I can find 20 different variations on the mechanics of the universe and things are still being written about it. All Scripture is already there, it only has to be sorted through.
It means all that Scripture has one single meaning.
Nobody know what will be the final thought on the fate of what goes into a black-hole. It may end up being that what goes in gets ejected out (the mass that would be around our tropics would make the area that would be our north and south poles the path of least resistance)
The material that makes up our oceans will one day evaporate, solar winds would push it away from the sun. When that happens, does it go off in whispers of material or is it funneled into something resembling a string. Vapor turning to ice at some far off distance from the sun. Water has weight, will it get sucked into the sun instead?
So why did you stop looking at that point? If your POV is as you describe, you could have freely chosen to read a little more, instead you ran out of steam.
Why do you make such sweeping assumptions? I'm not inclined to respond point by point to everything you post, some of it's ideas we've covered before and some of it I've given up on trying to get through to you on. I just wanted to point out that consistency is not a sufficient condition for something to be true. Your whole argument stands or falls on the truth of Scripture. You've stated elsewhere that you believe it to be literally true except where it's obviously meant allegorically (though what's obvious to you isn't the same as what's obvious to me), and until you can justify that position, you've got nothing.
So who's having the hallucinations, you and Dexter or me? In real life I read some words in a book, those words point to a sequence of events that will happen in a certain order. If you two are having problems assembling that sequence or understanding what is said about any certain event, it is you two having the problems, not me.
Since you say hallucinations can be more, then they might also be less.
For example, the 6th trump says 1/3 of mankind is going to be killed over the period of 1110 days. On a daily basis that is about 180M. You say it won't happen, I say the book that gave me the information on this is a description of a literal event in our future.
The ones doing the killing are 4 fallen angels. Any men with weapons would seem to belong to the 10 men that the beast empowers. Since this event should be in the seals somewhere you might want to remember some of those words.
"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth"
If God was giving us a little geo lesson. The 1/4 just happens to be about the same number as earth/water is for the earth. If Satan chooses all the land then that is how far his 10 earthly kingdoms extend. Everybody in any of them is a subject to those Nations. Anybody in that area would be a possible victim.
When Christ comes the number is a bit higher 2.6B in a few hours, an example of the difference between tribulation and great tribulation. A second difference is life in the sea, one of the events that happens just prior the start of the 42 is 1/3 of sea-life dies. At Christ's return there is a greater tribulation for these other 'inhabitants of the earth', they all die. There is even a verse that says what will become of the beasts of the field and the fowl after that feast on the bodies of men.
The 4 fallen angels die in a river of blood. That blood becomes solid. The bones of men get gathered into a pile.
So the 200M do not come from men, so they aren't China, or anybody else.
Those 200M probably travel in packs so large groups will be the victims. The ones Christ takes is more personal, selected on an individual basis. The ones not already 'in Judea' will be toasted where they stand.
What makes something vivid? Information, if you have 10 verses about the Day of the Lord it is enough to 'have some sort of a picture of what those words mean', if you have 100 verses you should have a more detailed picture. Would 500 more add even more detail?
If you come up with 11 words to describe that day who is having trouble seeing what is being presented?
Since you say hallucinations can be more, then they might also be less.
For example, the 6th trump says 1/3 of mankind is going to be killed over the period of 1110 days. On a daily basis that is about 180M. You say it won't happen, I say the book that gave me the information on this is a description of a literal event in our future.
The ones doing the killing are 4 fallen angels. Any men with weapons would seem to belong to the 10 men that the beast empowers. Since this event should be in the seals somewhere you might want to remember some of those words.
"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth"
If God was giving us a little geo lesson. The 1/4 just happens to be about the same number as earth/water is for the earth. If Satan chooses all the land then that is how far his 10 earthly kingdoms extend. Everybody in any of them is a subject to those Nations. Anybody in that area would be a possible victim.
When Christ comes the number is a bit higher 2.6B in a few hours, an example of the difference between tribulation and great tribulation. A second difference is life in the sea, one of the events that happens just prior the start of the 42 is 1/3 of sea-life dies. At Christ's return there is a greater tribulation for these other 'inhabitants of the earth', they all die. There is even a verse that says what will become of the beasts of the field and the fowl after that feast on the bodies of men.
The 4 fallen angels die in a river of blood. That blood becomes solid. The bones of men get gathered into a pile.
So the 200M do not come from men, so they aren't China, or anybody else.
Those 200M probably travel in packs so large groups will be the victims. The ones Christ takes is more personal, selected on an individual basis. The ones not already 'in Judea' will be toasted where they stand.
What makes something vivid? Information, if you have 10 verses about the Day of the Lord it is enough to 'have some sort of a picture of what those words mean', if you have 100 verses you should have a more detailed picture. Would 500 more add even more detail?
If you come up with 11 words to describe that day who is having trouble seeing what is being presented?
Well, I think the question of who is sufferering from hallucinations has been clearly answered.
Instead of trying to convert me just sit back and relax and read.
If I reference a verse that says Judas repented before he hung himself is that enough to have some hope for where he eventually is. What you see as being his fate isn't an issue, to a point.
Actually true of false, the picture prophecy paints for some upcoming events is still the very same, truth only becomes a factor when it is/isn't played out.
If a vision is given and it has an explanation right after then the literal will be in the explanation.
That means the description of the 4 angels is pretty much the way they will actually be, about the size of a horse. When Holy Angels are searching the earth they are not described as being what we normally attribute them as looking like.
I'm quite aware that you only see white pages when you open the Bible. Nothing delusional about that conditional at all.
I should take you on a journey someday, we'll look at some areas that were said to be fulfilled back when Jesus was here before the cross.
Slaughter of the innocents should perk your interest being as it is sort of a crime of God since he prophecised it would happen.
I'm not trying to convert you, only you can do that. I'm just trying to get you to think a bit. You can be a good Christian without being a biblical literalist. I know lots of such people and frankly I think they're better Christians than the literalists I've encountered in real life.
Given the Bible's record of failed promises--there are dozens, possibly hundreds, of them; I haven't counted--that's hardly likely to inspire confidence. God tells Adam that on the day he eats the fruit of a certain tree he will die, Adam eats the fruit and lives another 930 years. Cain is cursed to be a wanderer and a vagabond, but a few verses later he's getting married (who did he marry?), having children, and founding cities. Jesus tells his followers he will return within their lifetimes. Paul tells us multiple times that the Second Advent is imminent, he clearly expected to see the Rapture. John tells us at least three times in Revelation that all he describes will soon happen, he too expected his audience to see it. He even reports Jesus as telling him personally that it'll happen soon. You have to go through elaborate circumlocutions and ad hoc hypothesizing, effectively denying what the Bible plainly says, to maintain your literalist position. It's incoherent.
Of course it's incoherent to rational people; but just throw in some brainwashing, wishful thinking ,"scriptural interpretation", stir well, and there you have it - a fully developed fantasy come to life!
Ever been to a Star Trek convention?
Gawd no, wouldn't be caught dead at one. I'd rather go to a convention of psychics and astrologers. I was vastly amused a few years ago to read a report of William Shatner addressing a Star Trek convention and in effect telling everyone to get a life.
Whatever that means. There are 3 main views of a rapture, pre, mid, post. Are you saying whichever doctrine they adhere to has some influence on their ability on what kind of display they put on in public? Whatever problems that causes, is small compared to allowing any literalism into those 3 doctrines.
Are any prophecies past?
Were any of the described events true, did God tape the mouths of some lions shut so they wouldn't eat one of His prophets?
Did some Christians stay in a cell that had it's door 'opened' so the jailer wouldn't get into trouble?
Wasn't he kicked out of the Garden that very same day? God even made them some clothing. Part of their sentences was that Eve experience pain when giving birth. That would require having children. Does that mean they could have had over 900 children? How many years after their exile did the 120 years come into effect?
Do you think he had any contact with fallen angels? If 1 out of 2 of Adam's children sinned would that mean about half of their children should end up with Cain. That whole line should have become related by blood to fallen angels. Noah was the last of man that wasn't related to them.
Is Revelation a vision of a literal place when John is taken up?
That doesn't seem like that message is given in these verses.
2Th:2:1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th:2:2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th:2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
We've already cover this.
You also have to black-out a lot a verses to maintain what you claim it says.
Greetings Mr. Grumpy... I sees your lovely thread needs a little bit of an honest boost, to shake up and out the demons who have infiltrated it with their perpetual insanities...
_____________
Quote: "But the problem at the root of it all is not Christianity but Capitalism."
_____________
Look at it in a scientific set of view-points...
Look at it logically and in all honesty... Christianity invented the present Money System, to prevent the accumulating vile stench of decaying tithing produce and animal dung in the fronts of temples...
Money is Christianity... Capitalism is Money... Today's government is Money... Christianity owns the money people's minds... Most of the free-world is mired-in, and conditioned with Christianity's mind programming, making it not as free as they think... Should a person who is Christian conditioned begin to process thought using more than 7% mind, that person will suddenly experience a migraine headache... And should that person then commence verbalizing (preaching) a Christian dogma, the headache will vanish, from the conditioning triggering a quantity of that person's internal bio-anesthetics into the nervous system...
Prove it to yourselves... Image you are doing something extremely vile to one of your Christian heroes... When the headache gets to be real strong, do the preaching the dogma thing, and notice that you suddenly gets a good shot of your body's internal drugs, which cools the conditioning's painful constricted nerve plumbing... Money is all about manipulating people with pain and rewards... It's all related to Christianity maintaining its hold on Innocents.. so much so, that sometimes religious leaders have been known to even blatantly attack and molest and rob the innocence of babies, by sexually molesting them just to get their pious righteous Christian-rocks off, like a Roman Catholic priest molested me when I was three months old...
We abuse and misuse Money... Most of the criminal element is money-based...
Governments are horribly infested with money-sucking criminals, parasitizing the masses for more and more money... Look at Bush's MO... I bet that guys Karma is gonna come back at him in the form of the worst cancers one could imagine... You can't escape Life's balancing factors... All the evil you do comes back at you when you are weak, and can defend yourself the least... Money has become the evil, in how we use it... But now Money has taken on a life of its own, and is now in process of spending all life, to make itself grow... Money doesn't have a definition of life in its equation... Money doesn't care if it spends all life... Money only wants to grow and grow itself, by spending more and more life... Today the increasing oil prices are boosting the transportation costs of everything, which is increasing the cost of everything, essentially spending more life, by literally spending the quality of life or humanity... Big Money doesn't care if humanity lives or dies... Look what's happening in Arabia... Big Money America is using a reborn Christian Inquisition, and their Christian military war machine to attack and rob the little poppy & oil rich nations who can defend themselves the least... Money's war is is just one way money plays... America is robbing Arabia's dope and oil to make American economy grow... Economy is Money...
Without Money, Religion dies.. Governments die.. Crime dies.. War dies.. All that remains is Life...
How did the planet build the dinosaur ages without money..?
How does the Sun maintain Life without money..?
How does a blade of grass grow without money..?
How does winter succumb to Spring without money..?
How does conception happen without money..?
How can Life continue, with money destroying the very life support systems which nurtures and cradles all life..?
How will you get to your "heaven" with money..? Who, and what, do you pay for your entry into your proverbial "heaven"..?
Christianity = Capitalism = Money = Religion = Politics = War = Crime = Evil... It's all about Money... All the strife on the planet is money-based...
Humanity is heading head first into an early extinction, and are taking all life on the planet with us... Each second there is less and less life on the planet... One day planet earth is gonna run out of life if this foolishness continues... It's all about how a few thousand of us, in control, are abusing money... It's a vile disease... It's called "Gold Fever"... All the infected one can see is money and profit... Life has become a trivial pursuit...
I was coining-out a PacMan video-game in a Jewish community center, and was being watched by four little Jewish boys... The moment I began pouring the thousands of quarters into the coin-counter, two of the little Jewish boys began drooling... So profuse was their drooling that it as falling from their chins in long gooey strings, landing on the tops of their shoes in puddles... Seeing that made me feel extremely nauseous...
If I won a huge multi-million dollar lotto, suddenly I would have lots of friends...
Money is Christianity... Capitalism is Money... Today's government is Money... Christianity owns the money people's minds... Most of the free-world is mired-in, and conditioned with Christianity's mind programming, making it not as free as they think... Should a person who is Christian conditioned begin to process thought using more than 7% mind, that person will suddenly experience a migraine headache... And should that person then commence verbalizing (preaching) a Christian dogma, the headache will vanish, from the conditioning triggering a quantity of that person's internal bio-anesthetics into the nervous system...
Prove it to yourselves... Image you are doing something extremely vile to one of your Christian heroes... When the headache gets to be real strong, do the preaching the dogma thing, and notice that you suddenly gets a good shot of your body's internal drugs, which cools the conditioning's painful constricted nerve plumbing... Money is all about manipulating people with pain and rewards... It's all related to Christianity maintaining its hold on Innocents...
You can use this thing as a useful pain-elimination tool, to eliminate serious pain...
Next time you are in extreme pain, image yourself doing some extreme blasphemy.. then when the migraine gets strong start preaching a little Christian dogma, and all your pain will vanish the moment your invasive Christian conditioning releases a significant quantity of your body's bio-anesthetics into your nervous system...
Next time you are experiencing extreme fear, do the blasphemy thing, and then the preaching the dogma thing, and all your fears will vanish...
Next time you need to fight to protect yourself, do the exercise, and there's a good chance that should you sustain any damage in the battle, you won't feel any pain...
Should you happen to experience a study overload headache, that's because you are accessing more than the permitted 7% of your mind to cram for exams...
Set the books down, and start preaching a little Christian dogma, and the headache will suddenly vanish... Only Christian conditioned people get migraines and overload study headaches...
Better would be to totally eliminate the conditioning, once and for all.. unless you find that it's a good pain-relieving tool...
To eradicate the conditioning from your Being is quite simple... Get high on what ever you like to get to get high on... Get relaxed as you can... Place an unopened bottled beverage just out of reach... Go into deep a meditative state, where it's easy to visualize your thoughts... Image picking up the bottle, and grabbing the Nazarene ("christ") by the back of his gold-sash ("belt"), and with all your might yank him backwards toward you, having him buckle-over forward.. and Ram the bottle cap through his toga, right up into his arse, while yelling in your mind "TIGHTEN UP!", and image yourself snapping the base of the bottle down, lightning-fast, snapping the cap off the bottle in the guy's bum... Then grin proud, and image yourself taking a refreshing-sip from the bottle...
Suddenly your conditioning will react in the extreme, in defending itself against your extreme hit.. which was based beyond the thought-processing which invented and created the conditioning... Thus the conditioning will now see that it has no-option but to suicide you, to protect itself from you possibly assisting others out of its vile mind prison... You will sense an increasing heat generating in your head, in the creative center, in the right brain hemisphere, top center.. then you will experience a couple of stingy audible crackles in the creative center.. is when you immediately cut all power to your thought processes, and the conditioning will safely self-destruct...
In a few minutes the stings will vanish, and your thoughts will suddenly fill-up with millions of new thoughts about the workings of Life and Reality and Science, and if you're lucky you'll see the gates to the afterlife too...
You have now freed yourself from the great abomination's insanity...
Now your life is all yours to do with as You please, unhindered by invasive money-sucking mind-controls... And no more migraines...
Use your religious conditioning as a pain-relieving tool... or eliminate the invasive pain at its source by neutralizing the mind control conditioning...
_____________
Quote: "But the problem at the root of it all is not Christianity but Capitalism."
_____________
Look at it in a scientific set of view-points...
Look at it logically and in all honesty... Christianity invented the present Money System, to prevent the accumulating vile stench of decaying tithing produce and animal dung in the fronts of temples...
Money is Christianity... Capitalism is Money... Today's government is Money... Christianity owns the money people's minds... Most of the free-world is mired-in, and conditioned with Christianity's mind programming, making it not as free as they think... Should a person who is Christian conditioned begin to process thought using more than 7% mind, that person will suddenly experience a migraine headache... And should that person then commence verbalizing (preaching) a Christian dogma, the headache will vanish, from the conditioning triggering a quantity of that person's internal bio-anesthetics into the nervous system...
Prove it to yourselves... Image you are doing something extremely vile to one of your Christian heroes... When the headache gets to be real strong, do the preaching the dogma thing, and notice that you suddenly gets a good shot of your body's internal drugs, which cools the conditioning's painful constricted nerve plumbing... Money is all about manipulating people with pain and rewards... It's all related to Christianity maintaining its hold on Innocents.. so much so, that sometimes religious leaders have been known to even blatantly attack and molest and rob the innocence of babies, by sexually molesting them just to get their pious righteous Christian-rocks off, like a Roman Catholic priest molested me when I was three months old...
We abuse and misuse Money... Most of the criminal element is money-based...
Governments are horribly infested with money-sucking criminals, parasitizing the masses for more and more money... Look at Bush's MO... I bet that guys Karma is gonna come back at him in the form of the worst cancers one could imagine... You can't escape Life's balancing factors... All the evil you do comes back at you when you are weak, and can defend yourself the least... Money has become the evil, in how we use it... But now Money has taken on a life of its own, and is now in process of spending all life, to make itself grow... Money doesn't have a definition of life in its equation... Money doesn't care if it spends all life... Money only wants to grow and grow itself, by spending more and more life... Today the increasing oil prices are boosting the transportation costs of everything, which is increasing the cost of everything, essentially spending more life, by literally spending the quality of life or humanity... Big Money doesn't care if humanity lives or dies... Look what's happening in Arabia... Big Money America is using a reborn Christian Inquisition, and their Christian military war machine to attack and rob the little poppy & oil rich nations who can defend themselves the least... Money's war is is just one way money plays... America is robbing Arabia's dope and oil to make American economy grow... Economy is Money...
Without Money, Religion dies.. Governments die.. Crime dies.. War dies.. All that remains is Life...
How did the planet build the dinosaur ages without money..?
How does the Sun maintain Life without money..?
How does a blade of grass grow without money..?
How does winter succumb to Spring without money..?
How does conception happen without money..?
How can Life continue, with money destroying the very life support systems which nurtures and cradles all life..?
How will you get to your "heaven" with money..? Who, and what, do you pay for your entry into your proverbial "heaven"..?
Christianity = Capitalism = Money = Religion = Politics = War = Crime = Evil... It's all about Money... All the strife on the planet is money-based...
Humanity is heading head first into an early extinction, and are taking all life on the planet with us... Each second there is less and less life on the planet... One day planet earth is gonna run out of life if this foolishness continues... It's all about how a few thousand of us, in control, are abusing money... It's a vile disease... It's called "Gold Fever"... All the infected one can see is money and profit... Life has become a trivial pursuit...
I was coining-out a PacMan video-game in a Jewish community center, and was being watched by four little Jewish boys... The moment I began pouring the thousands of quarters into the coin-counter, two of the little Jewish boys began drooling... So profuse was their drooling that it as falling from their chins in long gooey strings, landing on the tops of their shoes in puddles... Seeing that made me feel extremely nauseous...
If I won a huge multi-million dollar lotto, suddenly I would have lots of friends...
Money is Christianity... Capitalism is Money... Today's government is Money... Christianity owns the money people's minds... Most of the free-world is mired-in, and conditioned with Christianity's mind programming, making it not as free as they think... Should a person who is Christian conditioned begin to process thought using more than 7% mind, that person will suddenly experience a migraine headache... And should that person then commence verbalizing (preaching) a Christian dogma, the headache will vanish, from the conditioning triggering a quantity of that person's internal bio-anesthetics into the nervous system...
Prove it to yourselves... Image you are doing something extremely vile to one of your Christian heroes... When the headache gets to be real strong, do the preaching the dogma thing, and notice that you suddenly gets a good shot of your body's internal drugs, which cools the conditioning's painful constricted nerve plumbing... Money is all about manipulating people with pain and rewards... It's all related to Christianity maintaining its hold on Innocents...
You can use this thing as a useful pain-elimination tool, to eliminate serious pain...
Next time you are in extreme pain, image yourself doing some extreme blasphemy.. then when the migraine gets strong start preaching a little Christian dogma, and all your pain will vanish the moment your invasive Christian conditioning releases a significant quantity of your body's bio-anesthetics into your nervous system...
Next time you are experiencing extreme fear, do the blasphemy thing, and then the preaching the dogma thing, and all your fears will vanish...
Next time you need to fight to protect yourself, do the exercise, and there's a good chance that should you sustain any damage in the battle, you won't feel any pain...
Should you happen to experience a study overload headache, that's because you are accessing more than the permitted 7% of your mind to cram for exams...
Set the books down, and start preaching a little Christian dogma, and the headache will suddenly vanish... Only Christian conditioned people get migraines and overload study headaches...
Better would be to totally eliminate the conditioning, once and for all.. unless you find that it's a good pain-relieving tool...
To eradicate the conditioning from your Being is quite simple... Get high on what ever you like to get to get high on... Get relaxed as you can... Place an unopened bottled beverage just out of reach... Go into deep a meditative state, where it's easy to visualize your thoughts... Image picking up the bottle, and grabbing the Nazarene ("christ") by the back of his gold-sash ("belt"), and with all your might yank him backwards toward you, having him buckle-over forward.. and Ram the bottle cap through his toga, right up into his arse, while yelling in your mind "TIGHTEN UP!", and image yourself snapping the base of the bottle down, lightning-fast, snapping the cap off the bottle in the guy's bum... Then grin proud, and image yourself taking a refreshing-sip from the bottle...
Suddenly your conditioning will react in the extreme, in defending itself against your extreme hit.. which was based beyond the thought-processing which invented and created the conditioning... Thus the conditioning will now see that it has no-option but to suicide you, to protect itself from you possibly assisting others out of its vile mind prison... You will sense an increasing heat generating in your head, in the creative center, in the right brain hemisphere, top center.. then you will experience a couple of stingy audible crackles in the creative center.. is when you immediately cut all power to your thought processes, and the conditioning will safely self-destruct...
In a few minutes the stings will vanish, and your thoughts will suddenly fill-up with millions of new thoughts about the workings of Life and Reality and Science, and if you're lucky you'll see the gates to the afterlife too...
You have now freed yourself from the great abomination's insanity...
Now your life is all yours to do with as You please, unhindered by invasive money-sucking mind-controls... And no more migraines...
Use your religious conditioning as a pain-relieving tool... or eliminate the invasive pain at its source by neutralizing the mind control conditioning...
Mr. Bush has the world by its nuts... He can, at whim, eradicate any city on the planet, at any time...
He as all the controls over all of death.. but does he have any controls on heaven's evolving essences of Life..?
Will birds and venomous bugs land upon his hands at his request..?
Will a lady black-widow spider let you pick it up and stroke her back and legs, in friendship and absolute life-peak safety..? Can you pet a rattle-snake in friendship..?
Could you walk up to an adult shegriz, and sit close, and teach her to speak English..?
Can you assemble six thought progressions, and aim them at a turbulent sea shoreline, in such a way that it hypnotizes a square mile of seawater be as calm as glass is smooth, for as long as the six focuses are maintained emotion-free...
Have you good folks got any grasp of Life and Reality..?
If you don't, you gonna forfeit the afterlife, by your own hand...
Seems I just can't wake the dead... Humanity went extinct long ago...
Does all Life speak to you in English..?
Does all Life love you as you it..?
If it don't, you fail at accessing the afterlife...
sort of like going to hell.. or never leaving it...