A challenge to our dear Christian friends.
- Thread starter mrgrumpy
- Start date
Can't you see the 27 pages of the verses I just posted, your condition is much worse than I had thought possible. LOL
You asked me (told me) not to post any actual verses because you don't read them anyway, so there you go, you get nothing.
You asked me (told me) not to post any actual verses because you don't read them anyway, so there you go, you get nothing.
Jesus wrote them, eh? An illiterate carpenter wrote those verses...is that what you are saying?
REALLY?
So then Jesus and biblegod ARE one and the same?
and if he dictated them, was he using a tape recorder or something more...primitive?
So then Jesus and biblegod ARE one and the same?
and if he dictated them, was he using a tape recorder or something more...primitive?
If God were not such a trip, why are you here discussing Him?
Obviously, it gnaws at your heart.
A child who wants attention learns to irritate, and that irritation is an indication of a need to be loved.
I can tell you right now, you are loved but can not see it for the stubbornness of the mind.
The mind has its five senses to gather information by and is the filter to one's soul.
One's soul has a heart that is dying to be loved, and that is the cause for our continuance on the subject, hoping that the mind might listen for a change.
Peace>>>AJ
Obviously, it gnaws at your heart.
A child who wants attention learns to irritate, and that irritation is an indication of a need to be loved.
I can tell you right now, you are loved but can not see it for the stubbornness of the mind.
The mind has its five senses to gather information by and is the filter to one's soul.
One's soul has a heart that is dying to be loved, and that is the cause for our continuance on the subject, hoping that the mind might listen for a change.
Peace>>>AJ
Seeing you're one half of the Jesus fan club on this forum maybe do do well to educate the other half on scriptural authorship, instead of this tiresome babble about my being loved...
Well, it's been a long thread and I can say I've proven my point, especially with the valuable examples of WISHFUL THINKING and APPALLING IGNORANCE provided by our constant contributors, look3467 and MHz.
The idea of "GOD" was invented to explain unkowns, and has grown and developed into a societal blemish that is unworthy of the dignity of man. Now, if it were only a matter of people living thier fantasy life in private that would be one thing, but unfortunately organized religion is the greatest threat to society and perhaps even to peace.
There's my two cents; can't say it wasn't amusing; I can say it was not educational - maybe other forums have better educated contributors than I've run into here.
The idea of "GOD" was invented to explain unkowns, and has grown and developed into a societal blemish that is unworthy of the dignity of man. Now, if it were only a matter of people living thier fantasy life in private that would be one thing, but unfortunately organized religion is the greatest threat to society and perhaps even to peace.
There's my two cents; can't say it wasn't amusing; I can say it was not educational - maybe other forums have better educated contributors than I've run into here.
Well you have said quite a bit in 26 pages, but how did that prove what you put in the next paragraph?
Are you calling it 'Mission Complete", if so I will try to find a pic from Bush's carrier landing for you.
Are you calling it 'Mission Complete", if so I will try to find a pic from Bush's carrier landing for you.
I believe my assumptions were correct about the irritation, so I guess the next best thing for you to do to combat that, is to resign, and say you've won!
But, I will also make another assumption, if you did resign in victory, where ever you go, you will not be able to hide from that irritation caused by God in your heart.
I'll be here to continue if you wish.
Peace>>>AJ
Usually it does, in my experience. Faced with a problem you can't seem to solve, often the best thing to do is leave it alone for a while. It seems to keep simmering away in the mind somewhere, then when you come back to it, you get a fresh perspective. Prayer may help focus whatever the brain mechanism--metaphorically speaking--is that does that, but I don't find it useful or necessary to postulate that anyone's listening. It's just one more meditative technique.
I consistently got zero, and sometimes even less than that, when things turned out completely opposite to what I was told to expect. Suppose you prayed for comprehension and insight, and the insight that came was "This doesn't make any sense." That's what I got. Pretty strange answer if that's what it was, and certainly not the way to sell the product, but of course I don't believe it came from anywhere but inside my own head. That's where I think your answers come from too (your head I mean of course, not mine), and you, in common with all religious believers, consistently misinterpret them as coming from outside.
Two words: practicing and maybe.
There is no maybe, either you are a Catholic or not!
The maybe word entails a lack of belief, trust and reliance in/on the catholic beliefs.
So you never were, but thought you were, for if you were, you would have the same kind of faith I have.
I was raised a Catholic, was an altar boy and later changed from being a Catholic to just being a believer.
I still retain the same trust and reliance on God as I did then today.
Peace>>>AJ
Meditation for however defined is as you say, and it works.
However, there is a spirit in us which keeps us alive, meaning keeping the body functions up.
Within that same spirit/body is a soul, with characteristics that define that soul.
Take away that spirit the body seizes to function and all that is left is a memory of the characteristics.
That spirit spiritually had to die in order to enter the body, and must now be revived again.
The death of the spirit spiritually in the born body is what causes it to seek out life again.
Hence, the reason for all the man made religious practices of humanity.
I understand the re-birth process because I understand the death process as well.
Between those two, is life's experience, and that is what it is all about.
If one had never being born, there would been no time-life experience, no soul characteristics, or simply, no soul! No you!
Peace>>>AJ
.
I can do a similar thing if I am working on other things, without saying the Lord's prayer first and a solution is sometimes found. But if it is about something in the Bible I always use that prayer to start. It's no different to phoning the Ford dealership to get some info on a Ford product. I'm not going to phone a Chevy dealership to find out what size bolt I need for a For engine.
I've probably got that , "This doesn't make any sense." on more than one occasion myself. In my case that was the correct answer as the original question was about the validity of the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture, any verses I ran into after that were pulling me away from considering that doctrine as having a solid foundation. Sure 1 or 2 or 3 could be point to that possibility but 10 more verses that covered that topic (when are people gathered) were against that view. It then boiled down to accepting what those verses said (and doing the follow-up work that is needed for any topic) or ditch those verses and going with what the majority of the people I was talking with were promoting. I always go with the verses, it may not be the one that endears me to the pre-trib crowd but I'm more than comfortable with the decision.
Here's an example that gives you an idea of just how complicated I can make 'arriving at a conclusion'
Part of the pre-trib thing is belief that there will be a 7 year trib, that is based on Daniel's last week of the 70 being split from the other 69. So I go and read that section but there is no 'flat-out' statement that says there is any break. Taking just that last week verse I go looking through the first 4 books of the NT to see if those things listed can be verified as happening just as listed.
The most obvious point is that in mid-week the end comes to sacrifice, that would have to be His death on the cross. So I go looking for the time given that shows Jesus preached for 3 1/2 years. The best book for that is John, it covers 3 Passovers, but the time given before that 1st passover doesn't add up to 6 months, it has it down to about a month at the very most. The other books aren't any help because they start (after Him coming back from the wilderness) His ministry after John is in prison, John puts that after that 1st passover. Hurdle #1, He didn't actually preach for even 3 full years. (This is where a prayer paid off) Back to Daniel's verse about that week. The 1st thing listed is that He would confirm a covenant, Okay who is 'He'? A covenant is a promise, to confirm something would indicate it is keeping a promise that was made some time before. At that point only God has been making promises to Israel. When it comes to sending a Messiah something is to happen before the Messiah, a witness has to be there. Zipping back to the NT and the book of John that is just what John is saying he is, and being a witness to the Messiah is one of the reasons that he is there. Jesus was baptized when He was about 30 (no ministry yet, just the baptism), John was said to be 6 months older than Jesus so when he was called he 'could have' been about 30.
So, using some math and some logic, can there be 3 1/2 years from when John was called until Jesus suffered the cross? They had a valid High Priest for a full 3 1/2 years, but it was a combination of time by 2 such priests, not just 1.
Examining the events after the mid-week is just about as involved so I will skip that for the moment. The other part needed is to look at the times given in Revelation, is there 7 consecutive years listed. Again that would take quite a bit of writing so I'll skip that for now.
In my opinion God did just what He said He was going to do, but He did it in such a way that it was not 'in your face' obvious.
Did someone say the Nazi's were atheists?
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator:by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..."
Adolph Hitler (Mein Kampf) Chapter 2
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator:by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..."
Adolph Hitler (Mein Kampf) Chapter 2
No me, I believe I said they read material written by an atheist, one who was apparently abused by the Church in his younger years.....hmmm......you aren't planning on writing any political material, or running for public office, are you?
Give credit where credit is due.
"Yes, there where many abused by RCC's holy orders and idiotic theologies..no doubt that is what led them to their aberrant ways..thank you Satan."
"Yes, there where many abused by RCC's holy orders and idiotic theologies..no doubt that is what led them to their aberrant ways..thank you Satan."
If a Google can be made on black-holes can it also be done for Scripture.
If you get a e-bible that has the text to the 1611KJV text you will be able to follow what I'm saying.
If I Google through that for 'grace' I get "X" hits. After I read through those single verses I should have some general idea what grace is. To understand grace fully you have to 'have some proof'. To verify the verse, you have to read the passage it comes from. And with the word grace it pays off. A verse alone would indicate some behaviors are favored. Sin should abound so grace can abound. That should leave the impression that sin is actually a good thing. On more than one occasion there is a verse just before the one I referenced that says "God, forbid", that would seem to change what one verse by itself means.
By the end of doing that I know more than I did by just reading the single verses. If I wanted to know more I would also look in the OT, mercy is what prevailed back then. Now you should be able to think up something to say about what the Bible says about grace should it ever come up in a conversation.
Revelation has some good stories and some rather gory ones.
Words for the righteous and words for those on the only other path.
The good points of the 7 Churches would result on a reward being given. The next topic after the 6th trump is a chapter long topic. The way the righteous living will see the 2nd coming. The other path is also a chapter long, the one about the vials.
You will come across the words 'one day' in relation to an event.
If you Google those words you get a few hits in the OT, once you read the passages you will find that they have an event in common. The feast that the beasts and fowl will be invited to.
Now you google for that event, those passages will have another new event, or a reference to time (past present, or future)
After a bit more reading I was left with the impression that a lot of things were going to happen on that 'one day'. (when you get to having read the verses that have 'that day', it brings up about 20).
You can then plot that event to some other event in Revelation. In this case the 7th trump. If you go forward or backwards from there some other event will pop up. Satan is said to go after 'saints' and a 'remnant'.
It is possible to come up with hits on that topic also. It ends you eliminate the 'common thought' that anybody who had read the bible is a 'saint' at that very moment. Which is actually a good thing for believers. They now have a better chance of making it through those years alive. True Saints might be just the two witnesses.
To finish up the 70 weeks. I forgot to go over that word 'cut-off'.
It can mean death but it can also mean being separated from somebody you wish to be with. When John was called he became High Priest, the one anointed by God and heritage. That event cut Jesus off from becoming High Priest officially. He assumed the role of shepherd to the people on when John was prevented from doing that role.
Da:9:26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
((first half))
((Romans, the Gospel was being preached in Rome (Church) and the authority to use the sword was given to the ruler (Romans:13) and Daniel 8, 70AD))
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ))
((this doesn't sound good))
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
((the last enemy is death, when people start coming back to life that is the sign to the living that Christ is on Earth))
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
((including Satan's return with a certain amount of power. ))
Da:9:27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
(the cross)
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
(the money-changers would have returned, all the blood sacrifices would have continued, killing people sent to them went on, they killed Stephen with their own hands, only the 12 Apostles were safe in Jerusalem after that, then 70 was the official end to those things)
even until the consummation,
(the end of His wrath, the 3rd woe is over)
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(the vials that are the 3rd woe)
There are no dates for when Peter was given the go-ahead to start preaching to the Gentiles. That should have been 3 1/2 years after the cross.
If you get a e-bible that has the text to the 1611KJV text you will be able to follow what I'm saying.
If I Google through that for 'grace' I get "X" hits. After I read through those single verses I should have some general idea what grace is. To understand grace fully you have to 'have some proof'. To verify the verse, you have to read the passage it comes from. And with the word grace it pays off. A verse alone would indicate some behaviors are favored. Sin should abound so grace can abound. That should leave the impression that sin is actually a good thing. On more than one occasion there is a verse just before the one I referenced that says "God, forbid", that would seem to change what one verse by itself means.
By the end of doing that I know more than I did by just reading the single verses. If I wanted to know more I would also look in the OT, mercy is what prevailed back then. Now you should be able to think up something to say about what the Bible says about grace should it ever come up in a conversation.
Revelation has some good stories and some rather gory ones.
Words for the righteous and words for those on the only other path.
The good points of the 7 Churches would result on a reward being given. The next topic after the 6th trump is a chapter long topic. The way the righteous living will see the 2nd coming. The other path is also a chapter long, the one about the vials.
You will come across the words 'one day' in relation to an event.
If you Google those words you get a few hits in the OT, once you read the passages you will find that they have an event in common. The feast that the beasts and fowl will be invited to.
Now you google for that event, those passages will have another new event, or a reference to time (past present, or future)
After a bit more reading I was left with the impression that a lot of things were going to happen on that 'one day'. (when you get to having read the verses that have 'that day', it brings up about 20).
You can then plot that event to some other event in Revelation. In this case the 7th trump. If you go forward or backwards from there some other event will pop up. Satan is said to go after 'saints' and a 'remnant'.
It is possible to come up with hits on that topic also. It ends you eliminate the 'common thought' that anybody who had read the bible is a 'saint' at that very moment. Which is actually a good thing for believers. They now have a better chance of making it through those years alive. True Saints might be just the two witnesses.
To finish up the 70 weeks. I forgot to go over that word 'cut-off'.
It can mean death but it can also mean being separated from somebody you wish to be with. When John was called he became High Priest, the one anointed by God and heritage. That event cut Jesus off from becoming High Priest officially. He assumed the role of shepherd to the people on when John was prevented from doing that role.
Da:9:26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
((first half))
((Romans, the Gospel was being preached in Rome (Church) and the authority to use the sword was given to the ruler (Romans:13) and Daniel 8, 70AD))
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ))
((this doesn't sound good))
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
((the last enemy is death, when people start coming back to life that is the sign to the living that Christ is on Earth))
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
((including Satan's return with a certain amount of power. ))
Da:9:27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
(the cross)
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
(the money-changers would have returned, all the blood sacrifices would have continued, killing people sent to them went on, they killed Stephen with their own hands, only the 12 Apostles were safe in Jerusalem after that, then 70 was the official end to those things)
even until the consummation,
(the end of His wrath, the 3rd woe is over)
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(the vials that are the 3rd woe)
There are no dates for when Peter was given the go-ahead to start preaching to the Gentiles. That should have been 3 1/2 years after the cross.