A challenge to our dear Christian friends.

[look3467]

Sure, I can buy that, though I'd like to see some numbers on how often it actually happens and has lasting effects. I just don't see either a need or a justification for attributing it to anything outside that person. I do, and I don't call it god. Or God. I think the credit belongs entirely to the person who makes the change. Frankly, I agree with talloola. Your claim to understand that man without god is worthless is at best a little patronizing, at worst it's an arrogant and insulting comment on everybody who doesn't share your beliefs. You're perfectly entitled to think that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is wrong, but "worthless" is a little over the top. I know you to be a kind, gentle, and well-meaning person so I didn't take it as an insult, but the truth is that you understand no such thing. You simply assume it, mostly on the basis of your rather idiosyncratic understanding of Scripture, and I think you're demonstrably wrong. Reason and evidence--or rather, the lack of evidence--tell me that the god you base all this on almost certainly does not exist.

Again, I apologize. I was addressing some rather than all, so I should be more specific next time.
No general terms.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Again, I apologize.

No need, really, I think I understood what you meant, but gratefully accepted. Not only are you kind, gentle, and well-meaning, you're gracious as well, a rare quality in Internet forums. There's not much we agree on, at least on the subject of religion (and I don't recall that we've explored anything else here) but I do find you worth talking to, and I still want to get you at my kitchen table some evening...

 

[talloola]

I do apologize to you talloola, I should be careful to choose my words better.

You have every right to live a full and wonderful life without God.

My reference should have been to those who think that life is but a worm.

I Stand corrected.

Peace>>>AJ

Thanks, now you're being your usuall thoughtful self again.

 

[mrgrumpy]

"My reference should have been to those who think that life is but a worm."

Reminds me of a title song to an old Broadway musical...just escapes me at the moment.

I never said life was a worm. Life is as wonderful and full as one cares to make it and is generally better seen without the looking glass of supernatural magic and superstition.

I said when we die we end all conscioussness with the death of the brain; ie, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that we croak and then find ourselves in fairy tale heaven. Nada. Zip. Not one scintilla of evidence.

And all the wishful thinking in the world won't change that.

 

[MHz]

I said when we die we end all conscioussness with the death of the brain; ie, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that we croak and then find ourselves in fairy tale heaven. Nada. Zip. Not one scintilla of evidence.

And all the wishful thinking in the world won't change that.

This is what I don't get, what you said above is just what Scripture teaches. Death is a sound sleep, total unawareness. Yet you bash Scripture.
Job puts it this way, nothing between death and being brought out of death, you wait .
Job:14:12:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job:14:13:
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!

Solomon puts it this way,
Proverb:3:24:
When thou liest down,
thou shalt not be afraid:
yea,
thou shalt lie down,
and thy sleep shall be sweet.


Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might;
for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave,
whither thou goest.

David put it this way,
Psalms:13:3:
Consider and hear me,
O LORD my God:
lighten mine eyes,
lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalms:115:17:
The dead praise not the LORD,
neither any that go down into silence.

So who on earth was telling you death was different from what is said above?

 

[look3467]

This is what I don't get, what you said above is just what Scripture teaches.>>>MHz

The whole point of God is what we don't know. Mrgrumpy and Mhz pointed that out loud and clear.

What is made available to us, especially at this point in time of human history, is a complete book of message, detailing who God is in comparison to what He is not.

If we take advantage of that knowledge, then we shall have a means of having hope, because it is something that has to be taken in faith, rather than by proof.

And faith comes from the heart, to trust, to rely, to give of oneself to something unknown is faith.

How can one prove that? By demonstration of each individual.

James in the book of James said:
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

So the burden of proof of Gods existence is in the individual, the heart within and not the works without.

If God is in ones heart, it will show on the outside without any effort, for ones speech, ones actions, emanate from within first.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MHz]

Works, within the directions given, are a sign of faith, that doesn't offer any proof that God exists. You can do good works without ever mentioning God as being the motivator, and most would probably prefer it that way. To tell people that you have faith in Christ, without attending to their needs (within your limits) just makes you a hypocrite.
Jas:2:14:
What doth it profit,
my brethren,
though a man say he hath faith,
and have not works?
can faith save him?
Jas:2:15:
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
Jas:2:16:
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Jas:2:17:
Even so faith,
if it hath not works,
is dead,
being alone.

 

[mrgrumpy]

I have new rule I'm applying to the Christian apologists who give us nothing but scriptural quotes;

Since I don't read them and view them as self-serving and irrelevant, unless you can provide PERSONAL opinion based on your reality and experience, there is really nothing to talk about.

Give us your intellect, experience, feelings and emotions please, rather than all those meaningless texts that prove absolutely nothing.

 

[MHz]

I have new rule I'm applying to the Christian apologists who give us nothing but scriptural quotes;

Since I don't read them and view them as self-serving and irrelevant, unless you can provide PERSONAL opinion based on your reality and experience, there is really nothing to talk about.

Give us your intellect, experience, feelings and emotions please, rather than all those meaningless texts that prove absolutely nothing.

Due to copyright infringement guidelines what you get is what you get. Complete with references to the original source.
Do you have references to the source that lead you to believe what you promote as truth? You can reference yourself if you came up with that thought all on your own.

 

[mrgrumpy]

You want thoughts of my own, eh?

Maybe review my previous posts...you'll get the idea pretty quick.

 

[MHz]

No need to review them, they are pretty simple to understand.
When you broke free of the RCC yoke around your neck you took off like sling-shot off into never, never land. The distance you travel is inversely proportional to the size of the chain attached to that yoke. Quite understandable really to think God was pushing you away. Hopefully one day you might realize that it was God that gave you that last little push that was needed for you to be set free, had He pulled you from the front you would be dead so you couldn't tell others what He looks like.

I'd give you the verse but why waste that kind of bandwidth on you, you still think God and the RCC are in cahoots.
Don't worry so much, you have a well deserved rest coming. It has the same effects that the sleeps you have today have on you, you awake all rested and smiley. The time-stamps on your posts show that. I don't know anybody who gets up at 3 or 4AM and starts talking about God, other than you that is. The Lord truly does work in mysterious ways.
So death is nothing more than nighty, night, with no pleasant (or otherwise) dreams part.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'll definitely agree to that. But I'll also add that the only afterlife there is past death is either in the minds of the living or the other existing items our separated molecules blend with; mostly water.

 

[MHz]

Won't do much good for the living to be the keepers of your memories, they will follow the same path the dead.
Jas:4:14:
Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow.
For what is your life?
It is even a vapour,
that appeareth for a little time,
and then vanisheth away.

 

[mrgrumpy]

All religions are ancient monuments to superstitions, ignorance, ferocity; and modern religions only ancient follies.

 

[look3467]

Works, within the directions given, are a sign of faith, that doesn't offer any proof that God exists.>>>MHz

A sign of faith: In what?

I can jump out of an airplane with a chute indicates I have faith the chute will open?

Proof of Gods existence is having faith that our good works indicate.

Can an unbeliever demonstrate these same Godly works of faith?

Absolutely!

I’ll refer you to Paul’s days when he came to that city of Athens whose people were worshiping the unknown god: Act 17:23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. What therefore ye worship in ignorance, this I set forth unto you.

These folks exercised faith in someone they knew not, but knew within their hearts that there was a god, whom they choose to ascribe a name “unknown god”.

They found Him (God) in their hearts but knew not Him in word.

This is evidenced by Paul’s next verses: Act 17:26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:

So, my point is that God is in the works of good works when it comes from the heart, showing forth good works to the believer and the unbeliever alike.

“If, haply they might feel after him and find him”, will be proof of His existence.

For today, His is known to us as Jesus, and all the necessary information is available to us freely, to the point where there is no excuse for not being able to find Him.

If my good works of faith are not demonstrable of who or what God is, then, I am a very poor representative of Him, and I would sadly fail Him.

God loves the unbeliever period! For He made us all under unbelief! Equalizing the playing field to where none of us has any advantage over the other.

What ever advantage we do have with Him is in an individual relationship with Him.

There is where the key is.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

All religions are ancient monuments to superstitions, ignorance, ferocity; and modern religions only ancient follies.

You know what, mrgrumpy, you are absolutely right,.............. looking at it from mans point of view.

But from Gods point of view, He looks at the heart of the individual, and there is where you will find Him, not in superstitions, ancient monuments or religious organizations.

I don't ascribe to any religious organization, but simply am a believer in a God so Wonderful, so Good, Compassionate, and Giving, that my life has been nothing but joy to live, and with great expectations for when this time is over, that I would have served well and I would have received my reward..............and that is life for ever more!


Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

You did ask for a personal testimony, did you not, Mrgrumpy?

If after that, you still are not persuaded, then I'm afraid that neither words or personal testimonies will soften your heart to wards God.

If, by chance it did, then you would automatically have a name change, from mrgrumpy to mrhappy.

For then you would be sharing your personal experiences with others as to how Good God is, how Wonderful He is, and how He has made a difference in your life to where your heart becomes joyful in every situation.

But in a way it is good that you are Mrgrumpy, because that gives me an opportunity to vent my praises to God and for others to read and learn for themselves.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MHz]

God loves the unbeliever period! For He made us all under unbelief! Equalizing the playing field to where none of us has any advantage over the other.

It is true that God cares for everything He created, that doesn't mean it is a level playing field before it is all said and done. Even after that some will have different roles in the His kingdom. Some will stay in New Jerusalem, others will spend most of their time living outside that city in the new Earth.
M't:5:19:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As for jumping out of planes, would you have more faith that your chute would work properly if you packed it yourself of if somebody tossed you a pre-packed one and said "I didn't pack it, but it should work."

 

[look3467]

It is true that God cares for everything He created, that doesn't mean it is a level playing field before it is all said and done. Even after that some will have different roles in the His kingdom. Some will stay in New Jerusalem, others will spend most of their time living outside that city in the new Earth.
M't:5:19:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As for jumping out of planes, would you have more faith that your chute would work properly if you packed it yourself of if somebody tossed you a pre-packed one and said "I didn't pack it, but it should work."

The playing field from the start was not level because there was the difference between the heathen and the nation of Israel.

Israel had the Father as their point of contact, much as like the first born child having full rights to the Fathers inheritance, but when Jesus came, those rights were cut off, stolen, much like Jacob stole Esau's birth right to the fathers inheritance.


The playing field now leveled to where there is neither Jew nor Greek, but are as one in the body of Christ.

The new testament then is a workbook to where we all learn to workout that wonderful gift Jesus left us: life.

That is why there are allot of things in the new testament that seem out of date, wrong and or don't fit the present day situations.

All life's issues are to be worked out from the stand point of God, but first there must be a transformation of the heart, then all those things will fall into its proper place.

Peace>>>AJ

As for packing my own chute, I'm not sure I would trust myself to do a good job.
Similarly, I would not trust my salvation into my own hands, for I know that I would never make it on my own merits.

 

[MHz]

I thought is was things in the OT that were out-of-date? What is not relevant today that the NT speaks of?

I don't sky-dive, why jump out of a perfectly working aircraft?

None of us would make it on own own merits.