Does God exist?

[MHz]

I have not trusted in one text alone to draw these conclusions, and in reading about the past, my attention is inevitably drawn toward the future...and has placed me squarely in the world of particle physics and quantum cosmology to answer the questions of the universe...

You mean like the earth coming to fiery end, without God it is a few billion years down the road, with God it comes much sooner.
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

True or false, the earth will be consumed by the fire of our sun going nova (if not slightly before then).
All bodies in the observable universe will go through the same event as our sun, basically turning to vapors alone (and reforming from many different stars to form one that does not exist today)

Here is a question I have asked several times.
God puts our time as beginning after the seas exist, assuming that water came from off this world would that weight (of all the water currently on the earth affect our orbit around the sun (# of days/hours/minutes) and how fast it spins on it's own axis? (# of hours/minutes in one day)

The Bible also supports two times in the past when men were 'more efficient' and most likely somewhat wiser. Before the flood they had angelic help, even if they were 'fallen' they were not weak of dull witted. The second time was before the tower of Babel.

That leaves us open to deception in all it's forms, does the Bible warn us about this or not? How many of your other sources of info warn about that same thing?

 

[darkbeaver]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10330
The “magic of compound interest” refers to the tendency of savings to double and redouble exponentially, with a matching rise in what debtors owe on the other side of the balance sheet. These mathematics have been operated throughout history, ever since the charging of interest was invented in Sumer some time around 2750 BC. In every known society, the effect has been to concentrate wealth in the hands of people with money. In recent years, one’s own money is not even necessary to do this. The power to indebt others to oneself can be achieved by free credit creation. However, the resulting mushrooming exponential growth in indebtedness must collapse at the point where its interest and other carrying charges (now augmented by exorbitant late fees, bounced-check fees, credit-card costs and other penalties) absorb the entire economic surplus.These Clean Slates were adopted literally, almost word for word, in the Biblical Jubilee Year if Leviticus 25. Even the same Hebrew word, deror, was used for the Babylonian andurarum proclaimed by rulers of Hammurapi’s dynasty from 2000 to 1600 BC. So it is remarkable to me that men claiming to be Christian leaders today should ignore the fact that in the very first sermon that Jesus gave, in Nazareth (Luke 4:14-30), he unrolled the scroll of Isaiah 61 and promised that he had come “to proclaim the Year of the Lord,” the Jubilee Year. That was the literal “good news” that the Bible preached, as the Dead Sea scrolls have abundantly illustrated. (the blessed holy write down)

Yet it is a sign of the power of creditor ideology that even the essence of this founding document of Western civilization has been ignored by a distorted view of what early Christianity, Judaism and other religions were all about. Hardly surprising. Luke’s passage on this founding sermon of Jesus concludes by pointing out that “all the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff.”

Woe be to those who do not kneel at the feet of the lord of Compound Interest

 

[Dexter Sinister]

True or false, the earth will be consumed by the fire of our sun going nova (if not slightly before then).

False. The sun isn't going to go nova, it's not big enough.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Here is a question I have asked several times.
God puts our time as beginning after the seas exist, assuming that water came from off this world would that weight (of all the water currently on the earth affect our orbit around the sun (# of days/hours/minutes) and how fast it spins on it's own axis? (# of hours/minutes in one day)

Well technically everything on Earth came from off-world...but aside from that...

The Earth revolves around the Sun. As such it appears that the Sun moves in one year around the Earth. If the Earth orbited the Sun with a constant speed in a plane perpendicular to its axis, then the apparent Sun would culminate every day at exactly 12 o'clock, and be a perfect time keeper (except for its slowing rotation). But the orbit of the Earth is an ellipse and its speed varies between 30.287 and 29.291 km/s, according to Kepler's laws of planetary motion, and as such the Sun seems to move faster at perihelion (currently around 3 January) and slower at aphelion a half year later. At these extreme instances this effect increases (respectively, decreases) the real solar day by 7.9 seconds. This accumulates every day. The final result is that the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit contributes a sine wave variation with an amplitude of 7.66 minutes and a period of one year to the equation of time. The zero points are reached at perihelion (at the beginning of January) and aphelion (beginning of July) while the maximum values are at the beginnings of April (negative) and October (positive).

...if that is what you were getting at...not really sure...

The Bible also supports two times in the past when men were 'more efficient' and most likely somewhat wiser. Before the flood they had angelic help, even if they were 'fallen' they were not weak of dull witted. The second time was before the tower of Babel.

There's also at least 6 references to unicorns in KJV...

Funny no mention of leprechauns though...

That leaves us open to deception in all it's forms, does the Bible warn us about this or not?

Uh-huh...and god-for-****ing-bid your faith-based bull**** belief system would allow you to think for yourself without seeing Satan in every contrary notion...

How many of your other sources of info warn about that same thing?

Jo-Jo's Psychic Alliance could tell me all sorts of things, but I wouldn't believe that bitch either...

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Have you ever wondered why the constellations Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades are mentioned several times in the OT, while Talmudic tradition has the books written centuries (possibly even a miillenium) before the Greek astronomers would even name them...

I'd be interested to know how a true believer can reconcile these chronological inconsistencies...

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I guess an honest attempt was more than one could hope for.

You're suggesting I'm being dishonest here? Mind your manners if you want me to talk to you. Here's my last word to you on this subject.

You are clearly a biblical literalist to some degree and base most of your arguments on a simple faith that the Bible is in fact accurate. That position is logically untenable, there is no justification for believing that outside the Bible's own claims about itself, which is self-referential and thus logically not a valid argument. If there is a god with the characteristics ascribed to him by the major monotheisms, there would be some objective, empirical evidence of that. There is none that can survive even routine skeptical scrutiny, the hypothesis fails all tests, and the only honest conclusion is that he almost certainly does not exist.

Faith, being by definition belief in the absence of evidence, and sometimes in the face of contrary evidence, is just another word for not thinking clearly. The poster calling himself eanassir here comes from exactly the same position, has a faith just as firm as yours, and he's just as certain in his dogmatic conclusions, and his citations of a supposedly divinely inspired book in support of his arguments. He just has a different book than you do, and the evidence he can offer in support of its correctness is exactly parallel to yours. You can't possibly both be right, and the evidence of science and history and philosophy strongly suggests you're both wrong. And not just a little bit, but massively, egregiously wrong.

That honest enough for you?

 

[darkbeaver]

Well it seems that's it for the Farcical Forces, once again soundly mauled on the field of reason.

 

[MHz]

False. The sun isn't going to go nova, it's not big enough.

Would this qualify as a fiery end?
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"Earth will end up in the sun, vaporizing and blending its material with that of the sun," said Iowa State University's Lee Anne Willson. "That part of the sun then blows away into space, so one might say Earth is cremated and the ashes are scattered into interstellar space."[/FONT]
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/death_of_earth_000224.html

After that phase it collapses and sheds some of it's mass, that is what I was calling nova.

 

[MHz]

You're suggesting I'm being dishonest here? Mind your manners if you want me to talk to you. Here's my last word to you on this subject.

Is the 3rd Heaven outside our known universe or not?

You are clearly a biblical literalist to some degree and base most of your arguments on a simple faith that the Bible is in fact accurate. That position is logically untenable, there is no justification for believing that outside the Bible's own claims about itself, which is self-referential and thus logically not a valid argument. If there is a god with the characteristics ascribed to him by the major monotheisms, there would be some objective, empirical evidence of that. There is none that can survive even routine skeptical scrutiny, the hypothesis fails all tests, and the only honest conclusion is that he almost certainly does not exist.

The Bible is promoted as a book that contains truth in all matters that it covers. Some pleasant subjects but the majority is about the seamier side of life. This current topic is more or less about does the bible promote honesty about the cosmos. If it shows a truth that is just recently confirmed (after the original texts laid out) then give credit where credit is due. (with consideration that somebody will say that the correct info was taken off some other writings).
What are some examples of ' routine skeptical scrutiny'?

Faith, being by definition belief in the absence of evidence, and sometimes in the face of contrary evidence, is just another word for not thinking clearly. The poster calling himself eanassir here comes from exactly the same position, has a faith just as firm as yours, and he's just as certain in his dogmatic conclusions, and his citations of a supposedly divinely inspired book in support of his arguments. He just has a different book than you do, and the evidence he can offer in support of its correctness is exactly parallel to yours. You can't possibly both be right, and the evidence of science and history and philosophy strongly suggests you're both wrong. And not just a little bit, but massively, egregiously wrong.

I have faith the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, that is observable and has been for countless ages. When it comes to scripture does it blend or contradict current scientific knowledge.
I would probably agree that the Qur'an has the definition of God correct but if it is more for a pre-Christian Gentile than a post-Christ Gentile I'm not sure. They don't have to blend for God to exist.
What particular subject is in focus dictates what the conversation contains. You are welcome to comment on the question in my next post.

That honest enough for you?

"And not just a little bit, but massively, egregiously wrong."
Until you hear my argument this is a pre-mature conclusion on your part, is that language under the 'good-manners' you demand of others?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Is the 3rd Heaven outside our known universe or not?

No such place.

I have faith the sun will rise in the east tomorrow...

That's a different meaning of the word and you know it, that's the fallacy of equivocation.

"And not just a little bit, but massively, egregiously wrong."
Until you hear my argument this is a pre-mature conclusion on your part, is that language under the 'good-manners' you demand of others?

I've seen your arguments repeatedly in many threads here. It's not bad manners to tell a man he's wrong, it's a simple statement of fact, and I stand by that assessment. Name calling, like you calling me a parrot, and accusing me of dishonesty, that's bad manners, as well as being the ad hominem fallacy. But as I said, I will engage in no further discussion with you on the matter of god's existence. You're not very good at it, all you can produce is logical fallacies.

 

[MHz]

Well technically everything on Earth came from off-world...but aside from that...

The Earth revolves around the Sun. As such it appears that the Sun moves in one year around the Earth. If the Earth orbited the Sun with a constant speed in a plane perpendicular to its axis, then the apparent Sun would culminate every day at exactly 12 o'clock, and be a perfect time keeper (except for its slowing rotation). But the orbit of the Earth is an ellipse and its speed varies between 30.287 and 29.291 km/s, according to Kepler's laws of planetary motion, and as such the Sun seems to move faster at perihelion (currently around 3 January) and slower at aphelion a half year later. At these extreme instances this effect increases (respectively, decreases) the real solar day by 7.9 seconds. This accumulates every day. The final result is that the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit contributes a sine wave variation with an amplitude of 7.66 minutes and a period of one year to the equation of time. The zero points are reached at perihelion (at the beginning of January) and aphelion (beginning of July) while the maximum values are at the beginnings of April (negative) and October (positive).

...if that is what you were getting at...not really sure...

How about a more basic question, would the orbital paths around the sun be the same or would they be different when the weight of all the water (at present) is considered? Would our rotational speed be the same or different?
If the correct answer is yes then the bible is correct in stating that time was established (as we know it) only after that water was present.

There's also at least 6 references to unicorns in KJV...
Funny no mention of leprechauns though...

The last reference is about them returning to earth, with them are all the 'beasts of the field' (sheep, goats, certain types of birds) that have been killed as a sacrifice for sin. Interestingly enough they return the same time as the armies of heaven arrive to gather the wicked for (surprise) a feast for the fowl and beasts of the field.
My words are nothing compared to how the bible describes this event.
Isa:34:5:
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven:
behold,
it shall come down upon Idumea,
and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa:34:6:
The sword of the LORD is filled with blood,
it is made fat with fatness,
and with the blood of lambs and goats,
with the fat of the kidneys of rams:
for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah,
and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa:34:7:
And the unicorns shall come down with them,
and the bullocks with the bulls;
and their land shall be soaked with blood,
and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa:34:8:
For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance,
and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa:34:9:
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch,
and the dust thereof into brimstone,
and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa:34:10:
It shall not be quenched night nor day;
the smoke thereof shall go up for ever:
from generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Uh-huh...and god-for-****ing-bid your faith-based bull**** belief system would allow you to think for yourself without seeing Satan in every contrary notion...

So liars are honored in your 'version of the world'? I hope I have misunderstood this.

 

[MHz]

No such place.

Prove it

That's a different meaning of the word and you know it, that's the fallacy of equivocation.

Faith is not blind, it is build on knowns, the more something is shown to be truthful the more faith a person should be able to have that 'other things' covered also contain the same level of truth.

I've seen your arguments repeatedly in many threads here. It's not bad manners to tell a man he's wrong, it's a simple statement of fact, and I stand by that assessment. Name calling, like you calling me a parrot, and accusing me of dishonesty, that's bad manners, as well as being the ad hominem fallacy. But as I said, I will engage in no further discussion with you on the matter of god's existence. You're not very good at it, all you can produce is logical fallacies.

Why do you always ditch before covering some important questions, in this case the weight of water.
Same old, same old. Spare me your false indignation.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Prove it

You made the claim it exists, the burden of proof's on you.

Why do you always ditch before covering some important questions, in this case the weight of water.

Water constitutes about 0.02% of the earth's mass. Adding or removing it would have a negligible impact on the earth's orbital parameters, a fact you could have looked up as easily as I did, and it's not relevant to the discussion anyway.

Same old, same old. Spare me your false indignation.

Bumpkin.

 

[Scott Free]

Something for religionists to consider:

A central tenet of the god hypothesis is that he/she/it created man and the universe.

Once upon a time we thought the sun and planets revolved around us. Why wouldn't they? They were made for us after all. Today we know we revolve around the sun like any other planet, yet many people still think god created the universe for us. That god pays attention to us, watches us and loves us. That god has purpose and meaning for us; answers our prayers.

I can't help but suspect that kind of thinking is caused by a poor understanding of the immensity of the universe.

So to that end:

How big are suns (video)

Our galaxy has (approx 200-400 billion suns). This one has 800 billion stars

It is estimated that the universe holds 125 billion galaxies but right now we are only equipped to see 3000.

But a billion is a big number. Here is a way to picture it.

Now picture 250 piles like that (or 2 and 1/2 piles like this) (remember each penny is a galaxy) and each penny has 100-800 more piles in it and each penny is a sun!

Do you still think your the centre of the universe? That all this was made for you? That god made you in his/her/its image?

Take a deep breath first before answering. Think about it for a moment.

 

[talloola]

I know there is 'no' god out there, or anywhere, other than in the minds of some, BUT,
what I always think about when I look 'out there' is the others, like us, who live somewhere in the universe, there has to be more than us, and I would love to meet up
with 'just' one of them, it's getting kind of late for me, but maybe, just maybe.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

So liars are honored in your 'version of the world'?

Actually, I find the clergy to be less than honourable, and more than contemptible...

I hope I have misunderstood this.

You most assuredly have...

 

[Vanni Fucci]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And things seem hard or tough,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And you feel that you've had quite eno-o-o-o-o-ough...[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]that's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a sun that is the source of all our power.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]are moving at a million miles a day[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]in an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]of the galaxy we call the "Milky Way".[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]but out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We go 'round every two hundred million years, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and our galaxy is only one of millions of billions[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In this amazing and expanding universe.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Animated calliope interlude) [/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]in all of the directions it can whizz.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Twelve million miles a minute,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and that's the fastest speed there is. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]how amazingly unlikely is your birth, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.[/FONT]
​

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I know there is 'no' god out there, or anywhere, other than in the minds of some, BUT,
what I always think about when I look 'out there' is the others, like us, who live somewhere in the universe, there has to be more than us, and I would love to meet up
with 'just' one of them, it's getting kind of late for me, but maybe, just maybe.

Now this is something I could at least contemplate...

Not that I believe that aliens have visited our planet, because evidence to support that notion is scant at best, but the possibility that there is life in other galaxies or universes certainly exists...

What form that life may take, is just a matter of idle speculation...

For instance, carbon is the building blocks of all known life...but what if that were not true in other galxies or universes...

The possibilities are positively intriguing...

...but then I think that they'll probably think that some invisible sky-wizard sneezed life into their silicates and I'd still be having this same damn discussion with them...:angryfire:

 

[darkbeaver]

The meaning of life has been pondered for all the ages of mankind and then some I'll wager. Intelligent life. Where is the benchmark? What is the benchmark? My cat is at least as intelligent as some of our posters and yet the animal has no credit.
I seem to recall other than carbon based life forms arround hot seabed vents on this planet but I recall a lot of stuff that isn't necessarily real.

 

[MHz]

You made the claim it exists, the burden of proof's on you.
Water constitutes about 0.02% of the earth's mass. Adding or removing it would have a negligible impact on the earth's orbital parameters, a fact you could have looked up as easily as I did, and it's not relevant to the discussion anyway.
Bumpkin.

Actually I gave a verse that says that there is such a place. What I am doing is just a follow-up. If our universe is expanding (and some even say that rate is increasing which introduces it is acting under a gravitational force that would be 'pulling it') then it is occupying more of 'space' all the time. Before it occupies that extra space that place would seem to be 'above' the universe, same as our heavens are above the earth. That is how God defined the 1st heaven, close enough to earth that birds could be called the fowls of heaven. The place where you find of stones of fire is the realm of angels

The figure I had was 0.023% and while that may not seem like much I don't have proof that the solar orbit would not be affected, even to a tiny degree and I'm not sure you have actually run those numbers to verify that, your view could be just an opinion, right? Even a day in a year is a variation, distance could also be affected which would influence climate.

Even Bumpkins have the right to think and discern. To set the record straight I didn't call you dishonest, I called your reply (to the 3rd heaven) a cop out (not and honest attempt to address the question) that either mocked the question (and God) and avoided any attempt to supply an answer.