'Russia is fighting a war with us': Georgian president

[Praxius]

Speak for yourself coldstream, I won't be helping anyone who helps the imperialist western pigs or thier toolish NATO bagmasters. I hope Russia crushes the Georgian yankee licking pricks. Canada has a large force of tools in Afghanistan they do nothing but destroy villages and conduct terrorist operations against the Afghans, they lick Uncle Sams **** covered boots while they commit warcrimes.

While I do not agree with your observation of our own forces actiosn in Afghanistan, I do agree that we have no place to get involved in Georgia/Russian affairs, and Georgia is trying to play the victim card and media card to get themselves to look like the victims in this situation.

Even if Georgia isn't commiting genocide, they are forcing seperatist proviences to remain under their rule, where they no longer wish to be ruled by them...... if they supposed to be some Democratic country, then they shouldn't be doing this, let alone asking us for help to complete their oppressive operation.

Russia is in their right..... level their forces and cripple their asses so they can't do this again.

 

[Praxius]

DB, I'd be really curious to know why you think Russia is better than the USA.

I literally cannot find 1 thing America has done wrong that Russia has not also done, including bombing Afghan women and children.

The plain simple fact is that if you feel Russia is just as bad as the US, then why suddenly should we all take up arms and fight Russia, when we turn our eyes and ears away from what the US continually does on a yearly basis?

And if you want to tally up the points, exactly how many sovereign nations have been invaded by the US compared to how many Russia has invaded?

This is the first one in a long while that I remember Russia invading/defending...... quite simply, Russia is a lot more passive then the US is, and since they broke apart as the USSR, they've been very selevtive and cautious on the battles they get involved in.

Meanwhile, the US just simply doesn't give a crap what others think.... they give us crap and unfounded excuses, and they go ahead with what they do regardless of international opinion.

So why slag on Russia? Genocide seems more justified then suspected "Weapons of Mass Destruction."

 

[Avro]

Russia did the right thing, diplomacy never ends genocide.

 

[Praxius]

No one thinks Russia is communist, its textbook fascist.

And before you claim otherwise, ask why you put a nice law in preventing immigrants (ie non whites) from being able to work where they could be seen?

No different then Quebec trying to force Muslims to wear our clothing so they don't stand out as different, because Muslims make them un-easy.... esspecially when they're representing us in sport, or protecting us at pools.

Hypocracy lives everywhere, just in different forms.

There are many questions to ask, you are seeing a fascist country from how it appears in the inside. But Russia is in South Ossetia, which is no different than if America went into Siberia just because Siberia decided it was independant of the Russia federation.

And it only seems fascist due to our own Western media spin on information.

How about you take some actual media from Russia, take media from Georgia and compare it to the information provided through our own media, determine which information seems more logical and come to your own conclusions, rather then just accepting what's given to you from the first media outlet you come across.

 

[Praxius]

Georgians and Russians, not the best of friends since Jesus was wearing short pants..but somehow...somehow.....

I bet it is America's fault....

It will be if they get involved.

 

[Praxius]

I can't say that I buy much of what has been printed in the western MSM. Anyone who has been watching this story/war/conflict develop knows that the Georgians killed Russian peacekeepers along with some 1400 civilians BEFORE Russia sent in it's troops. Now I see the headlines are stating that Russia had invaded and/or declared war on Georgia... gimme a break! :roll:

Agreed... the actions were started by Georgia, not Russia.... all Russia is doing is reacting.... call it an invasion, or call it whatever you want, but Russia is in the right.

Russian peacekeepers are there under UN mandate and have every right to be there. Saakashvili is acting like a schoolyard bully who just got a punch on the nose.

Agreed.

The second Russia decided it was going to send in the troops as a response to the slaughter, he cries uncle and wants a ceasefire. I guess his memory is short because the three-hour truce he called for on Friday lasted but minutes before his troops re-engaged.

Chances are that's why he wanted to join NATO in the first place, so that if they pulled this stunt, they would have backing of NATO if Russia responded..... but that didn't work, and time was going by, so he decided to attack and then try and see if he'd get sympathy from NATO for their plight they created and could get away with it.....

And I sure as hell hope they don't.

Comparing this to Quebec is a joke and completely not related since Quebec would have to have been an autonomous region within Canada since 1980 along with both it's referendums being overwhelmingly in support of succesion. (98% and 99% are the numbers I have seen as related to S. Ossetia).

Agreed

The Georgians brought this upon themselves, or more specifically, Saakashvilli did and now he must reap what he has sown... to the detriment of his country and peoples unfortunately.

And as mentioned before, I hope Russia puts the boots to Georgia.

 

[Praxius]

I don't know how this thread became such a cheering section for Russian aggression.

Because we read the actual information on what's going on over there? Maybe what is being claimed by Russia is actually true?

*GASPS!!!!* THE EVIL RUSSIANS MIGHT NOT BE SO EVIL???!!!! OH NO!!!!!! :roll:

If the South Ossetians really want to rejoin their Northern brethren, and join the Russian Republic, then let's have a UN supervised referendum on the issue.

WTF does the UN have to be involved in the first place? They want out, let it be done. They don't need the approval of others who live thousands of KM's away who don't really care. It's their lives, their land, their choice..... why should Georgia be allowed to use brute force to oppress their wishes?

Let peacekeepers OTHER than Russians supervise it, have both sides agree to respect the results.

Oh so you think the Russian peacekeepers started this? How much more biased can you get?

And nullify the Russian Passports that have been issued to the South Ossetians, and have them QUIT providing arms to separatist elements to destabilize the region.

Georgia is the one destabalizing the region..... If they left them the hell alone, none of this would have happened in the first place. Oh, but Georgia wants to control that land and the people living there.... somehow that's alright by you?

You're priorities are pretty screwed up. How about thinking... you know.... just once, that perhaps Russia isn't trying to screw the world over..... maybe..... just maybe, they're actually trying to defend unarmed civilians from the slaughter by Georigian troops.... maybe Georigians refused to stop and turned their attack on the Russian military, shot down a few of their aircraft and peacekeepers, and now Russia is justified in their reaction.

Hard to believe.... but it's quite possible..... esspecially when the majority of the news around the world is begining to get more factual details on the number of civilians killed so far.

In fact have the Russians withdraw totally, ALONG with the Georgian Army.

That's the problem, the Georgian Military won't.... and Russian citizens are at threat, so the Russians have every right being there.

Allow repatriation of dislocated populations.

What about all the other civilians who were killed in the genocide? Give them a gold sticker?

Get troops from Norway or Brazil, countries with no stake in the outcome, supervise the peace until the will of the South Ossetians is clearly represented by a referendum, without intimidation by either side. If they choose separation from Georgia and union with North Ossetia within Russia, so be it.

And do you expect Brizil, Norway or any other neutral nation to be willing to send their troops halfway around the world to sit in the middle of two militaries ready to blow each other up?

They already chose to seperate from Georgia, there is no vote or dispute involved anymore..... the majority of the world knows and calls S. Ossetia as a seperatist provience...... if they still wanted to be a part of Georgia, they wouldn't be called Seperatist now would they?

Not only they, but many of them wouldn't be holding Russian passports and citizenship, and would have chosen Georgia, now wouldn't they?

I know that won't happen. Why? Because Putin has NO respect for democratic processes, PERIOD..

And Georgia does? Man you have one skewed/blind perspective.

and he has no intention of Losing.

I wouldn't either, so long as I had citizens of my country in danger from an oppressive nation.

He knows his military might will guarantee the outcome he wants.

Which is why Georgia didn't go into talks with Russia, and only cried to Western nations who have a limited view on what's really going on over there..... to suit his own objectives.

Russia wouldn't be in a position to "Guarantee the outcome he wants" if Georgia didn't start this situation in the first place.

He is an old KGB operative to the core.

And George Bush's family has ties to Nazi Germany..... what's your point?

And this will in no way be limited to Ossetia. It marks the blueprint for Russia's dealing with all the old republics of the Soviet Union.

Yeah yeah, I'm sure. :roll: Keep up with the unfounded propaganda.

 

[Zzarchov]

Ok Praxius, few things:

1.) They are russian citizens AFTER they fought, its a little like America giving everyone in Yellowknife $50,000 and an American passport and then claiming its American territory.

Which brings me to point 2.)

Its a region of 70,000 people. Thats literally like America going to say, Kingston Ontario, giving everyone a bunch of money and saying "These are American citizens, they want to join America, so they are American now, go away".

EVEN STILL,
I could go along with Russia supporting an independance movement EXCEPT

They have stated on NUMEROUS occassions that a breakaway region of a country can never be independant without the express permission of the central government.

That is why they oppose Kosovo independance and do not acknowledge it.

 

[Praxius]

Related Update:

New attacks reported between Russia, Georgia despite ceasefire call
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/08/11/russia-georgia.html

International efforts continued on Monday to stop the fighting in South Ossetia, as Russia and Georgia accused each other of launching fresh military attacks.

At the same time, Russia and the United States intensified their war of words over the region, and reports surfaced of other fighting farther west in a second breakaway region, Abkhazia.

The violence began when Russia sent troops into South Ossetia last Friday after Georgia tried to regain control of the breakaway province. The Georgian offensive involved artillery, armour and aircraft.

Russia says more than 2,000 people have been killed since then, most of them Ossetians with Russian passports. The figures could not be independently confirmed. Georgian officials said 300 civilians have died.

Georgia's Interior Ministry said Russian planes bombed a military base and radar installation near the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, even though Georgian troops had retreated to new positions outside South Ossetia.

Russian tanks tried to advance in the direction of the town of Gori near South Ossetia, but were turned back by Georgian forces, Georgian ministry official Shota Utiashvili told the Associated Press. No casualties were reported, he said.
Fighting despite ceasefire

Russian officials accused Georgia of spreading disinformation and said fighting was continuing in South Ossetia, despite a ceasefire declaration from Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili.

Russia's Interfax news agency reported a Russian general as saying Georgian forces had directed heavy fire early Monday at positions around the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

"Active fighting has been going on in several zones," Interfax quoted Maj.-Gen. Marat Kulakhmetov as saying.

Russia also said it had sunk a Georgian boat that tried to attack Russian vessels in the Black Sea.

In another development, Georgian officials said they received a Russian ultimatum to disarm troops near a second breakaway province, Abkhazia, or face Russian forces moving into Georgian-controlled territory. The Russian move would mark a major escalation of the conflict.

Abkhazia lies further west on the Black Sea. Like South Ossetia, it is a breakaway region of Georgia that has run its own affairs since defeating Georgian troops in the early 1990s.
G8 seeks negotiated solution

As the conflict continued, seven members of the G8 group of nations — Canada, the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Japan — called on Russia to accept an immediate ceasefire.

Foreign ministers from the seven countries held a telephone meeting and pledged their support for a negotiated solution to the conflict, a U.S. State Department official told the Associated Press.

The foreign ministers called on Russia to respect Georgia's borders, and they expressed deep concern for civilian casualties that have occurred, the official said.

The European Union also issued a statement urging an end to the violence. EU envoys were planning to travel to Moscow from Georgia's capital of Tbilisi later on Monday to try to promote a ceasefire proposal.

The United Nations said it is continuing to distribute emergency food aid to help thousands in Georgia, mostly near Tbilisi, who have been displaced by the fighting.

The number of people in need of assistance "is rising by the hour," Lola Castro, a World Food Program director, told AP.
Putin slams U.S. move

Also on Monday, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin criticized Washington for flying home an estimated 2,000 Georgian troops who had been deployed to Iraq.

"It's a pity that some of our partners instead of helping are, in fact, trying to get in the way," Putin said at a cabinet meeting.

"I mean — among other things — the United States airlifting Georgia's military contingent from Iraq effectively into the conflict zone," he said.

For his part, U.S. President George W. Bush told NBC News on Sunday that he had discussed the conflict in a face-to-face meeting with Putin during the opening ceremony for the Beijing Olympics.

"I was very firm with Vladimir Putin," Bush said. "Hopefully this will get resolved peacefully."

Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister David Emerson issued a statement on Sunday calling for an immediate ceasefire and accusing Russia of abandoning its role as peacekeeper in the region.

Emerson said Canada "calls on Russia to respect Georgia's borders and to desist from any further encroachment on Georgia's territorial integrity."

What a pile of BS this is getting to be:

#1 - The violence began when Russia sent troops into South Ossetia last Friday after Georgia tried to regain control of the breakaway province. The Georgian offensive involved artillery, armour and aircraft.

^ How is Russia the bad guy for Georgia starting this conflict in the first place? They used artillery, armour and aircraft on a civilian population, but Russia's the bad guy in this?

#2 - Abkhazia lies further west on the Black Sea. Like South Ossetia, it is a breakaway region of Georgia that has run its own affairs since defeating Georgian troops in the early 1990s.

^ If that's the case, then the case should have been closed.... where the hell does Georgia have the right to invade them and take them back over? A breakaway nation like Georgia not allowing other proviences to breakaway from them.... pretty hypocritical.

#3 - As the conflict continued, seven members of the G8 group of nations — Canada, the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Japan — called on Russia to accept an immediate ceasefire.

^ If it was Georgia who started this whole situation, then why isn't any other nation telling them to accept the ceasefire?

#4 - The foreign ministers called on Russia to respect Georgia's borders, and they expressed deep concern for civilian casualties that have occurred, the official said.

^ They are respecting Georgia's borders, which is why they're remaining in the breakaway proviences.... which haven't been under Georgia's rule for some time now..... it is Georgia that's not respecting anything at this time.

#5 - Also on Monday, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin criticized Washington for flying home an estimated 2,000 Georgian troops who had been deployed to Iraq.

^ And once again, the US gets involved where it shouldn't get involved in.... backing the side that's accused of genocide by helping them have more troops to finish the job. Makes me sick.

#6 - For his part, U.S. President George W. Bush told NBC News on Sunday that he had discussed the conflict in a face-to-face meeting with Putin during the opening ceremony for the Beijing Olympics.

"I was very firm with Vladimir Putin," Bush said. "Hopefully this will get resolved peacefully."

^ "Very Firm" doesn't explain a damn thing now does it?

#7 - Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister David Emerson issued a statement on Sunday calling for an immediate ceasefire and accusing Russia of abandoning its role as peacekeeper in the region.

^ How the hell can someone be so god damn ignorant? They had peacekeepers in that area to keep the peace, Georgia came in with tanks and artillary, killed their peacekeepers, and civilians..... and Russia's the one who's in the wrong?

WTF are they smoking in our government? Fok, I'd like to take a board to the back of his head to knock some sense into him.... cripes.... I got these idiots representing me?

 

[coldstream]

Russia wouldn't be in a position to "Guarantee the outcome he wants" if Georgia didn't start this situation in the first place.



And George Bush's family has ties to Nazi Germany..... what's your point?



Yeah yeah, I'm sure. :roll: Keep up with the unfounded propaganda.

All that more or less backs my case. Russia is not interested in a negotiation, or self determination for the South Ossetians. If they were so sure of their support you'd have to wonder why they wouldn't hold a credible referendum, including displaced persons, and vacate the region in the interim along with the Georgian Army.. and place the supervision of that process under some neutral U.N. supervised force. Georgia would agree to those terms The world would have to accept the results. Putin has no intention of proposing it to them, though

Because they are not sure they'd win, that's why. And it does not fit in with Putin's designs for a new Russian Empire.. of which Ossetia will be but a tiny province.. all under Czar Vladimir (Vlad the Impaler for history). He really does not give a damn about the U.N. or the world, or democracy for peasants, for that matter. He has already declared South Ossetia part of Russian sovereign territory, and all 'foreign' interests in the region as an infringement of that sovereignty.

 

[scratch]

All that more or less backs my case. Russia is not interested in a negotiation, or self determination for the South Ossetians. If they were so sure of their support you'd have to wonder why they wouldn't hold a credible referendum, including displaced persons, and vacate the region in the interim along with the Georgian Army.. and place the supervision of that process under some neutral U.N. supervised force. Georgia would agree to those terms The world would have to accept the results. Putin has no intention of proposing it to them, though

Because they are not sure they'd win, that's why. And it does not fit in with Putin's designs for a new Russian Empire.. of which Ossetia will be but a tiny province.. all under Czar Vladimir (Vlad the Impaler for history). He really does not give a damn about the U.N. or the world, or democracy for peasants, for that matter. He has already declared South Ossetia part of Russian sovereign territory, and all 'foreign' interests in the region as an infringement of that sovereignty.

.....a strategy that pushes the envelope and gives Putin's ambitious plans a problem.....

 

[Praxius]

All that more or less backs my case. Russia is not interested in a negotiation, or self determination for the South Ossetians.

Not so long as Georgia doesn't abide to any ceasefires.... why should they hold themselves to an agreement the other side won't?

In fact, how come you still have yet to acknowlege Georgia's responsibilities for creating this situation in the first place? How is this all Russia's fault?

If they were so sure of their support you'd have to wonder why they wouldn't hold a credible referendum, including displaced persons, and vacate the region in the interim along with the Georgian Army..

Because the Georgian Military were the agressors, who are lying to the media, and who are continually attacking during the ceasefire put in place already.... there is no trust, and quite honestly, why would Russia trust the US or even Canada as having their and S.Ossetian's best interests at play, since the US just gave Georgian forces, 2000 strong, a free ticket back home to continue the fight of opression?

It simply makes no sense, and the situation should have been resolved a long time ago.... it wasn't, there has been US influence, now the only way for this to play out is for Georgia and Russia to duke it out and see what happens.

and place the supervision of that process under some neutral U.N. supervised force. Georgia would agree to those terms The world would have to accept the results.

I highly doubt that would be the end of the debate. The only way to stop this is to direct both sides to stop fighting, including Georgia pulling their troops out of the seperatist states/proviences.

Regardless, they have been running their own affairs since around 1990... where does Georgia come off thinking they still own these proviences?

Putin has no intention of proposing it to them, though Because they are not sure they'd win, that's why.

His Russian Peacekeepers have been killed... the peacekeepers who have been there this long to keep the fighting at bay.... they were killed by Georgian forces through their own greedy agendas of taking back those lands as their own by force.... honestly, why the hell would he want to talk peace with them at this point?

And S.Oss. doesn't need anymore political games to play to determine their independance from Georgia... they already fought Georgia and pushed their troops from their lands over 10 years ago..... not Russia, they themselves did it. Now Georgia invaded them, they asked Russia for help, Russia came to help..... now they're the bad guys. What a screwed up situation.

And it does not fit in with Putin's designs for a new Russian Empire..

Which is of course unfounded at this point in time... unless you can prove to us you can read his mind.

of which Ossetia will be but a tiny province.. all under Czar Vladimir (Vlad the Impaler for history). He really does not give a damn about the U.N. or the world, or democracy for peasants, for that matter. He has already declared South Ossetia part of Russian sovereign territory, and all 'foreign' interests in the region as an infringement of that sovereignty.

Do you by chance have any credible sources or proof to back up your wild assumptions or it this just your own opinion based on lack of proper information?

I might have had to agree with you if the situation was started differently, such as Russia just jumping in and taking over the proviences in a way that..... Georgia just tried to do..... but they didn't.... everything was cool and mellow over there until Georgia decided to conduct military operations to take the territories over as their own.

And to me, it doesn't sound like Russia is planning on taking the proviences as their own, but if they can't have them, Georgia sure as hell shouldn't..... and thus, they occupy until Georgia gets back over their borders and stay the hell away from the proviences.

Of course by Georgia's own actions, it would not be suprising that S.Oss. might request joinging Russia for their own protection from here on.

 

[coldstream]

fr. Praxis

Do you by chance have any credible sources or proof to back up your wild assumptions or it this just your own opinion based on lack of proper information?

But i, and the world, wouldn't have had proof the Hitler was bent on world domination, and global conquest, either..when he was handed the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia, to 'appease' him and guarantee 'peace' in our time.

You won't be able to talk to Putin. Georgian president Saakashvili's attempt to put down the Russian incited and armed separatist rebellion in South Ossetia, played right into Putin's hands. It was the excuse he was looking for to invade.. not only South Ossetia, but to drive into Georgia and Abkhazia to the Black Sea.. to secure complete control of Caspian Sea and Caucuses oil transit routes, and unfettered access to the Black Sea naval ports and the Mediterranean.

Putin is quite mad you know, he's a magalomaniac.. he just doesn't rant and rave like Hitler. Which makes him much more dangerous.. he works by the cloak.. and the dagger.. by stealth. But he is every bit as ambitious.

And it is Russian Jets and tanks that are killing civilians with out discrimination. This is a war of terror.. an example to all independent minded old Soviet Republics.



Prime Minister Chamberlain read this statement in front of 10 Downing St., Sept 30, 1938

"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour.
I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

11 months later Germany attacked Poland, and the World was at war.
​

 

[YoungJoonKim]

Putin is the devil incarnate, period.
This is my conclusion through my studies and observation based on numerous documentary and studies performed by CBC, CNN, and a few other independent groups.
As of now, most of the Russian media groups are controlled by the Putin government which propelled and secured Putin's successors's presidency. Whatever is left of democracy in Russia [of course..as fragile as always] is under threat by a secret police, God knows what, and various independent journalists have been murdered. Russia in itself is on a wrong course and to believe their stories of genocide in parts of Georgia is questionable. Plus, we are talking about a region a size approximately of Luxemberg here and you call this genocide? Go see Sudan for heaven sake! Where is Russia in that? This war is not about South Ossetia, its about weakening the Georgian influence over its people, destroying the financial institution to bankrupt the country, and increase Russian influence over Georgian terriotories.

 

[Praxius]

But i, and the world, wouldn't have had proof the Hitler was bent on world domination, and global conquest, either..when he was handed the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia, to 'appease' him and guarantee 'peace'

You're mixing up the facts:

Georgia is the one who took military action first, not Russia.... Georgia justified their military action as them wanting to take back the two seperatist provinces.... if you want to label anybody a Hitler or Nazi Germany, point your finger the other way.

If Russia truly wanted to take out Georgia, they would have done so by now.... as I imagine it wouldn't be a difficult feat for them. They pushed the Georgians out, and they told them not to enter the other province or they'll send troops there as well..... seems pretty fair to me.

You won't be able to talk to Putin. Georgian president Saakashvili's attempt to put down the Russian incited and armed separatist rebellion in South Ossetia, played right into Putin's hands. It was the excuse he was looking for to invade.. not only South Ossetia, but to drive into Georgia and Abkhazia to the Black Sea.. to secure complete control of Caspian Sea and Caucuses oil transit routes, and unfettered access to the Black Sea naval ports and the Mediterranean.

Even if that was the case, this situation wouldn't have occured if Georgia left things they way they have been for the last 18 years.... there were no wars, there wasn't any fighting.... they made the first move, now Russia is finishing it.

And I personally don't care about Pipelines, or transit routes.... no country has the right to claim those things as their own. If Ossetia doesn't want to be a part of Georgia and have been building up ties with Russia, whatever is in Ossetia is Ossetias, and if they decide to join with Russia, then those resources goto them as well.

It's no different then Canada not allowing Quebec to seperate, all because they hold some important resource..... hell, every country, province, land mass has resources that can be used and/or important..... I don't see it as an excuse.

Putin is quite mad you know, he's a magalomaniac.. he just doesn't rant and rave like Hitler. Which makes him much more dangerous.. he works by the cloak.. and the dagger.. by stealth. But he is every bit as ambitious.

I don't remember the last time I've heard Putin linked to genocide or his own personal holocaust.

Bush is far worse, as he just lies right to our faces, breaking every democratic process, all the while using democracy as his excuse as to why he broke it..... even when the majority of the nation hates his guts and opposes his plans, he still goes along with what he wants to do.

Bush has invaded many more nations then Putin ever has, and Putin has been around longer..... who's the real Hitler?

Bad Comparison some would say? I agree.... but both are just as retarded, which is my point. I see no logic or relation to your above assumptions to what is currently going on.

If you want to worry about any country acting like Nazis, look south of the border, because they have a head start.

And it is Russian Jets and tanks that are killing civilians with out discrimination. This is a war of terror.. an example to all independent minded old Soviet Republics.

Oh yeah of course..... "TERROR!!!!" Give me a break.... once again, why would Russians be killing a population which the majority hold Russian passports?

I asked you to provide sources to your assumptions, and you supplied nothing except more of your own emotional opinion..... heck, you didn't even provide examples of Putin actually pushing to take over other nations like Georgia or the US.

Honestly, using the term "Terror" ruins just about any debate thesedays, as it's been so over used.

 

[Praxius]

Putin is the devil incarnate, period.

By all means, prove it.... or better yet, compare any known-related actions by Putin's authority which match or pass those of the US/Bush in just the last 8 years..... hell go even further then that if you like.

I don't sway to emotional dribble.

This is my conclusion through my studies and observation based on numerous documentary and studies performed by CBC, CNN, and a few other independent groups.

CBC and CNN independant? BWAAAAA AHAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *Hack cough choke gag spit*

As of now, most of the Russian media groups are controlled by the Putin government which propelled and secured Putin's successors's presidency.

So.... just like Harper and Bush? Yeah, ok..... big whoop.

Whatever is left of democracy in Russia [of course..as fragile as always] is under threat by a secret police, God knows what, and various independent journalists have been murdered.

And how many suspected "Terrorists" does the US have hidden away in other countries, being tortured, beaten and all humanity being removed from them? All people who either oppose the US's positions, or because they just look "Different"

*coughArarcough coughhypocritescough*

excuse me.

Russia in itself is on a wrong course and to believe their stories of genocide in parts of Georgia is questionable.

Question it all you like.... just don't ignore it. You know, even "Evil" people we're told not to trust in the media and by our governments, do tell the truth once in a while.

Plus, we are talking about a region a size approximately of Luxemberg here and you call this genocide? Go see Sudan for heaven sake! Where is Russia in that?

Where the hell is Canada, the US, the UK, or any other nation for that matter? Pot and Kettle, cripes.

This war is not about South Ossetia, its about weakening the Georgian influence over its people, destroying the financial institution to bankrupt the country, and increase Russian influence over Georgian terriotories.

Well then perhaps Georgia shouldn't have attacked those provinces a few days ago to create this "Opportunity" for Russia.... I just love how it's all Russia's fault and poor little Georgia is innocent of what has been created..... despite the fact that peacekeepers were killed by Georgian forces.

 

[coldstream]

Praxis quotes in italics - Response in Bold

You're mixing up the facts:

If Russia truly wanted to take out Georgia, they would have done so by now.... as I imagine it wouldn't be a difficult feat for them. They pushed the Georgians out, and they told them not to enter the other province or they'll send troops there as well..... seems pretty fair to me.

Even if that was the case, this situation wouldn't have ocurred if Georgia left things they way they have been for the last 18 years.... there were no wars, there wasn't any fighting.... they made the first move, now Russia is finishing it.

Putin has only solidified his hold on power in the last 2 or 3 years, putting down all democratic opposition in Russia proper. His appointees hold complete control of the Russian bureaucracy, media, armed forces, courts and economy. They owe all their perks of office, and now their lives, to unquestioned loyalty of Putin.

And I personally don't care about Pipelines, or transit routes.... no country has the right to claim those things as their own. If Ossetia doesn't want to be a part of Georgia and have been building up ties with Russia, whatever is in Ossetia is Ossetias, and if they decide to join with Russia, then those resources goto them as well.

Oil runs the world economy. He who controls the spigots of the world, controls the world.

I don't remember the last time I've heard Putin linked to genocide or his own personal holocaust.

Wait. Up to now he has only been responsible for selective murders, mostly of journalists and former KGB colleagues who wanted to expose him for what he is.. a cold blooded killer. He was instrumental in bombing some apartments in Moscow in 1999, as Yeltsin's designated heir, in order to blame it on Chechens and muster support for that war.. about 200 killed.. small potatoes. It's a question of scale for Putin, not a question of conscience. He will kill who ever gets in his way. His thugs beat up political opponents, he jails anyone who challenges his hold on power.

Bush is far worse, as he just lies right to our faces, breaking every democratic process, all the while using democracy as his excuse as to why he broke it..... even when the majority of the nation hates his guts and opposes his plans, he still goes along with what he wants to do.

Bush has invaded many more nations then Putin ever has, and Putin has been around longer..... who's the real Hitler?

Bush retired when his terms of office were over, as required by the Constitution of the U.S.. Putin did not, treating his own country's constitution with utter contempt.. setting up a personal puppet in the President's office. Just like Hitler, who solidified his regime by setting up Hindenburg as figure head.. before burning the Reichstag. We are only at the start of Putin's 'great game'.

Oh yeah of course..... "TERROR!!!!" Give me a break.... once again, why would Russians be killing a population which the majority hold Russian passports?

I asked you to provide sources to your assumptions, and you supplied nothing except more of your own emotional opinion..... heck, you didn't even provide examples of Putin actually pushing to take over other nations like Georgia or the US.

I could say the same of you, Praxis. Putin leaves no trail, he works in the shadows.. he is ruthless.

 

[Stradavar]

Unfortunately refugees do not speak English, but I watched and listened to their interviews. I saw a mother cried and thanked the Russian military, who were lying wounded in hospitals.

And those who think that Russia attacked Georgia - idiots who believe delirium.

 

[Zzarchov]

Ok, seriously, Russian troops are ON FILM IN GEORGIA right now.

You can see them , right now.

You talk about how easy it would be for Russia to topple Georgia Praxius and you are correct, thats why its been a matter of days and Russia is deep into Georgian territory, in excess of South Ossetia.

Even Iraq put up a better fight to America.


Russia is in its old imperial game of land grab. Some things never change.

 

[Stradavar]

Ok, ok, you guy really cool, does not argue
these are cards that draw on it where Russian troops are now