WAR hooah ! What is it good for ???

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
2,488
1
38
PEI...for now
Re: RE: WAR hooah ! What is it good for ???

jimmoyer said:
So war hooaah ....

Genocide, not a reason for war ?

If usually nothing else works to stop it?

Genocide is an act of war. One of the worst kinds.

I would think if a group of people have come to the point to commit such acts, there would be little to deter them from their goal.

In cases like this sometimes you must fight fire with fire.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
70
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Reverend Blair and Toro answered each question at the beginning of this thread, and you Joecanadian answered one of them, and it is the process of answering them that is the only honorable thing to do. The effort to hear the question, understand it, the attempt to answer it, trumps all ideology.
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
2,488
1
38
PEI...for now
Re: RE: WAR hooah ! What is it good for ???

jimmoyer said:
The effort to hear the question, understand it, the attempt to answer it, trumps all ideology.

EH?

...er

:D Ok then.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
70
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
TIME ONCE AGAIN TO ASK THE QUESTION.



Is this board capable of analysis ???

LOL !!!

Can this board honorably answer the following:

Is war illegal if used to stop the carnage in Ruwanda, or Yugoslavia, where no imminent danger to your own country is present?

Would war be illegal if the destruction of Dafur in the Sudan is stopped?

Is it possible to stop a government or military from committing slaughter, ethnic cleansing or genocide without the use of war?


Would war be illegal if it prevents a despot from becoming a Kim of North Korea?

Is imminent danger a matter that can even be proven in a court of law?

Will that court decide in a speedy course of time to avoid the great sin of exposing a great many people to danger if they don't strike first?

Is evidence ever complete enough where a decision can be automatic without the use of a judge?

And isn't that why we need a judge because the nature of evidence is never complete enough, yet the issue contains enough peril to require a proper decision?

Isn't it a fact that police can do nothing to protect you prior to the imminent crime, that the crime must be committed first and if you don't survive the case is moot?

Can we possibly weigh all of these questions in such a perfect balance that no mistakes can be made?

Can a government ever weigh properly the perfect balance of civil liberties and security, and do not both need each other in order to enjoy and survive?

Don't all of these questions contain a greater truth than any possible answer we can give, and yet we must try to answer them all the while honoring the ultimate authority these questions hold over us all ?

Is everyone too suspicious that everyone has some sort of secret agenda that they cannot decide to answer any one of these questions honestly and directly?
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
118
63
46
Newfoundland!
I don't think we can make any of those judgements simply because the "facts" we receive are so distorted, biased, and sometimes plain made up, that we actually don't know a damned thing about any of these subjects.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
70
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Is war illegal if used to stop the carnage in Ruwanda, or Yugoslavia, where no imminent danger to your own country is present?

Would war be illegal if the destruction of Dafur in the Sudan is stopped?

Is it possible to stop a government or military from committing slaughter, ethnic cleansing or genocide without the use of war?
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
Is war illegal if used to stop the carnage in Ruwanda, or Yugoslavia, where no imminent danger to your own country is present?

Would war be illegal if the destruction of Dafur in the Sudan is stopped?

Is it possible to stop a government or military from committing slaughter, ethnic cleansing or genocide without the use of war?

The only bad wars or wars that make the world spasm is when it involves a Republican Administration or Israel.

Other than that the slaughter can continue unabated. Take Dafur for example. It is a tragedy but we are not involved so it is on the back burner. Everyone wants the US in there and critisises the US for not doing more

More meaning... send US troops to Dafur... we'll send a squad providing you get us there.

Yugoslavia is a perfect example of their hypocrisy. It was an internal affair and no threat to any other nation. The Serbs did not threaten Canada, the US, or any other nation. What it did threaten was the economy of Europe... that is why NATO went to war illegally. The Serbian Govt. could never have defeated the other EU nations.

So in affect, if you call the US involvement in Iraq illegal... the NATO involvement in Yugoslavia was also illegal. Therefor Canada participated in an illegal war.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
70
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
If no other method will stop yet another country from slaughtering innocents (as in Darfur and Southern Sudan) is war acceptable to stop the genocide ?

If no other method will stop yet another country from desiring nuclear weaponry, is war acceptable to stop this increase in the Big Swaggering Dick Club ?

Is it acceptable to have more than 15 or 30 or 40 nations having nuclear weapons ?
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
“Is war illegal if used to stop the carnage in Rwanda or Yugoslavia, where no imminent danger to your own country is present?”

To legalize a war it must be declared by that branch of the government entrusted by the Constitution with this power. And it seems it need not be declared by both the belligerent powers. By the Constitution of the United States, Art. I, Congress is invested with power "to declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water; and they have also the power to raise and support armies, and to provide and maintain a navy."

“Is this board capable of analysis?”

Are we talking about a legal war here Mr. Moyer or are we talking about a state sanctioned “police action” that’s “passed-off” as “war”?

If we’re talking about a coalition of troops sent by an over-sight body created through investigation, negotiations and statements of principles and purpose, that’s not a “war” by any legal rubric with which I’m familiar. In fact it parallels the rationale cited by terrorist organizations to legitimize their criminality….

You’ve avoided speaking of pre-cursors, antecedents and analysis and jumped immediately to consideration of “war”… Are you suggesting that the situations and dynamics in either Rwanda or Yugoslavia developed spontaneously without any opportunity to bring other mechanisms or strategies of deterrence into play?

Are you asking a question or collecting plot ideas for a morality play?

Imminent danger…..

You state: “Is imminent danger….” That is I believe you labelling a situation or circumstance with frightening and morally laden metrics that demand ‘judgment’ by the individual but will invite knee-jerk reactionism and yet you seek an “answer” from the mob….?

(Part I)… “Is evidence ever complete enough where a decision can be automatic without the use of a judge?”

(Part II)… And isn’t that why we need a judge because the nature of evidence is never complete enough, yet the issue contains enough peril to require a proper decision?

Is this question rhetorical in nature or are you suspending the system of laws and jurisprudence that Americans have embraced and sworn allegiance to since the Declaration of Independence….?

If you’re talking about (or inviting consideration of…) a legal decision regarding some situation event or circumstance, your American system of laws addresses the quality character and process involved in collecting and presenting evidence. And no a judge provides guidance to people in understanding law and is not required nor expected to offer determinations regarding the veracity relevance or import… or lack thereof… of any evidence supplied the court.

Once again you invoke the moral inducement of coloring the question with “peril”…..

With all due respect Mr. Moyer, your questions and the presentation of your questions demonstrates a particular subjective (presupposition) tone that clothes the consideration of “war” in the camouflage of “morality”. In essence… “If we see these wrong terrible bad injurious bloody devastating destructive things going on…..don’t we have a moral obligation to go to war?”

I’m disappointed Mr. Moyer.

Honest questions perhaps…but couched in the terms of the the snake oil salesman and the preacher…..

Your looking for an answer you’ve already determined for yourself.









 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
If no other method will stop yet another country from slaughtering innocents (as in Darfur and Southern Sudan) is war acceptable to stop the genocide ?

Do we call that war? Or do we call that peacekeeping? Intervention?



If no other method will stop yet another country from desiring nuclear weaponry, is war acceptable to stop this increase in the Big Swaggering Dick Club ?

Again, war, or peacekeeping? De-militarization? Disarmament? We have all these other fancy terms to describe the intent with which we strike up a conflict. When do they come into valid usage?
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Karrie

You've presented some ideas that I've mentioned and ask the question of defining the dynamic in a way that Mr. Moyer hasn't. It's a one-sided question, presuming the only alternative to some terrible unpleasantness is "war"...and yet the question doesn't offer very much amplification of the terms applied. Is it the same thing....a man see's a person being victimized (raped robbed assaulted) and employ violent intercession as the only response...without knowing the antecedents and precursors involved...? We are asked to "decide" who is "right" and who is "wrong"....and there simply isn't enough information to make that determination. I'm sure one could obtain as many rationales as there are perspectives on this single dynamic, this simple episode of a person being victimized...but the questions are far more varied. Is there any ulterior motive involved in rushing to aid one nation (one person) more quickly than another? Is there any credence or "value" in permitting one culture and one independent government people, country...the right to self-determination? Who makes the rules and by what authority are those rules then applied....and how?

Simple questions right...?

:)
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Some people here believe the west represents a benchmark for the rest of the nations to aspire too, this is of course the most destructive thing they could believe. Absolute power has corrupted absolutely Jim. I'm surprized that you have maintained your skewed point of view about those conflict zones you've mentioned all this time. You need a longer white cane.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Karrie

You've presented some ideas that I've mentioned and ask the question of defining the dynamic in a way that Mr. Moyer hasn't. It's a one-sided question, presuming the only alternative to some terrible unpleasantness is "war"...and yet the question doesn't offer very much amplification of the terms applied. Is it the same thing....a man see's a person being victimized (raped robbed assaulted) and employ violent intercession as the only response...without knowing the antecedents and precursors involved...? We are asked to "decide" who is "right" and who is "wrong"....and there simply isn't enough information to make that determination. I'm sure one could obtain as many rationales as there are perspectives on this single dynamic, this simple episode of a person being victimized...but the questions are far more varied. Is there any ulterior motive involved in rushing to aid one nation (one person) more quickly than another? Is there any credence or "value" in permitting one culture and one independent government people, country...the right to self-determination? Who makes the rules and by what authority are those rules then applied....and how?

Simple questions right...?

:)

Well, we do have this potentially incredible idea... this multi-nation peacekeeping body, this world wide voice for what is 'right'. If only it were less corruptible, the UN is a fabulous idea. A global discussion group designed to decide what's caused an issue, when intervention is warranted, and what form that intervention should take. A global decision to stop hostilities between two parties fighting on the street doesn't need to be met with one sided violence if you ensure you don't walk alone. You each grab a person, pull them apart, and sort it out. Peacekeeping. We used to be fairly renowned for it.

Bah... not enough coffee this morning to make sense at this discussion.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Karrie

How representative and "representative" of what... can a body of members who have the national interests (financial/resources/"rights") of the few who elect the wealthiest the most populated and the most prepared to "go to war" as permanent delegates?

While the U.N. is a grand idea, it relies on the support of all its members, and when you can't police the membership...the U.S. is influential and wealthy...involved in commerce and markets all over the world... Israel is the darling of the wealthiest most belicose nation on the planet...Russia is waiting for its "bite at the apple" (capital enterprise) and China has already eclipsed the United States in its efforts to dictate through economics...

A good idea, but in its present form...and in its previous form as the League of Nations...not up to the task.

Should our aspirations and notions about "rights" and national sovereignty be subject to the whim/will of the entrepreneurs prepared to do anything to feed the appetities of an unprincipled and wholly self-absorbed population?

Do we make decisions based on the "greater-good" and who do we mean by that and who decides the "good" of it all...?