A challenge to our dear Christian friends.

[mrgrumpy]

I could say to you that I got stoned the other day or that all the first born should die under the age of two, or the the I ordered the bear to eat the children, and would you be able to understand what all I meant by the uses of those words?

I would say you would not understand, but rather you would call me a murderer, a murderer of children, a heartless person to want the she bear to kill children, wouldn't you?

I will tell you what I meant and maybe you might have a different opinion of me.

I got stoned, meaning I drank a little to much at my daughters wedding.

That all first born up to the age of two would be excluded from entering the main auditorium while the play was going on.

That the she bear, a symbol of one consuming the bad deeds of children with love in order to grant them an opportunity to repent from their misdeeds.

Now, was I all what you thought I was after I gave you the explanations?

I would rather think, you would say, wow, he is a very good person for he thinks more of others than he does of him self.

Before you criticize the God that gave you life, perhaps you might want to try to understand Him.

I understand Him, and I find Him to be quite loving.

Peace>>>AJ[/quote]

w

 

[mrgrumpy]

I could say to you that I got stoned the other day or that all the first born should die under the age of two, or the the I ordered the bear to eat the children, and would you be able to understand what all I meant by the uses of those words?

I would say you would not understand, but rather you would call me a murderer, a murderer of children, a heartless person to want the she bear to kill children, wouldn't you?

I will tell you what I meant and maybe you might have a different opinion of me.

I got stoned, meaning I drank a little to much at my daughters wedding.

That all first born up to the age of two would be excluded from entering the main auditorium while the play was going on.

That the she bear, a symbol of one consuming the bad deeds of children with love in order to grant them an opportunity to repent from their misdeeds.

Now, was I all what you thought I was after I gave you the explanations?

I would rather think, you would say, wow, he is a very good person for he thinks more of others than he does of him self.

Before you criticize the God that gave you life, perhaps you might want to try to understand Him.

I understand Him, and I find Him to be quite loving.

Peace>>>AJ[/quote]

Well then, I see your "interpretations" put a completely different meaning on the words and sentences! Isn't that just proving the point that you can make the bible say anything you want?

"No man ever believes the Bible says what it means;he is always convinced it says what he means."

George Bernard Shaw

 

[MHz]

Isn't that just proving the point that you can make the bible say anything you want?

"No man ever believes the Bible says what it means;he is always convinced it says what he means."

George Bernard Shaw

I'm not sure why you would want to stray very far from what first impression tells you on any one certain subject. That might take some digging around to find all the relevant verses though.

An example, where all the text is in one place, are the letters about the 7 Churches. Although their are names given to them anybody who has heard of Christ should be in one of those Churches. The first impression is that those words describe several different types of relationship, some good and some bad. Rewards are listed for the good points, warnings are given for the bad points if those 'attitudes' are still present when He returns.
While physical buildings can crumble over time those 'traits of the possible relationship man can have with God' have existed since the last word of Revelation was written down.
The first letter would seem to describe the relationship the clergy of the RCC have with God. If they don't go back to their first love (the real Father is God, not the most important person in their organization) they will not be alive (for the thousand years)by the end of God's wrath on the first day of Christ's return.
The hardest part of reading those letters is picking out the attributes that applies to yourself. It is quite easy to apply some attribute to somebody else, with human conditioning being what it is, any attribute, more often than not, will probably come from the list that has 'overcome' attached to it.
The only 'manipulation' needed to arrive at this 'conclusion' is that those Churches have had members since they were founded, and that no matter what label is on any Church today those same characteristics apply to anybody who enters. That would apply to those who do not attend services also.

I had to LMAO yesterday. While looking through some videos I came across one that had the beast, from Daniel, with the wings and the lion's head, as being the UK and the US. The reason given was related to 'national symbols'. What twit came up with that? If it was to apply to them those symbols would have been theirs before the Scripture was written. Only a fool would think he could flip through Scripture and pick what character he wants to be. Let me guess who first came up with this 'theory', a Jew who doesn't believe in Christ. Nice try, but 'they' are the real ****-disturbers in any prophecy (from men anyway). Satan is after Jerusalem, not the US or the UK, when he finally has actual control you will be able to find that Babylon.

 

[look3467]

My dear friends, I’ve read all the responses since my last post, and I can’t believe I’ve missed allot of it until I read up today.

I can see all the details of the debate as totally humanistic, and maybe a small percentage for God, which in my understanding is perfectly allowable.

Given that mankind was given rule over his own environment and life, it is perfectly understandable why, mankind thinks the way it does.

Notice that mankind doesn’t come in to the 7-day creation picture until the 6th day?

Mankind is the crown of Gods creation, the best for the last.

Therefore, mankind is given rule over the first 5 days of it or as gods over its own life and environment.

Tell me it that is not so?

Therefore, there can be no end to debate as long as it is held to humanistic terms.

On the spiritual plain, there is an end!

There is an end to the present physical life, an end to the past spiritual life, and a beginning of a new spiritual life.

We all fall under those 3 conditions regardless of what transpired on this physical earth.

The central important theme in the whole of humanity is that mankind is like god!

A god: that can have rule over self, others and the environment.

Hence, all the atrocities created by mankind over the span of humanity?

The creator did not create by error but with design.

The design was to have children of its own kind, but placed in an environment conducive to learning, much as like we brought children into this world and are responsible to raise them and teach them the right things.

There in is the marriage which in it produces such children.

There then is what we see as a heavenly marriage between the spirit of God and the physical earth.

Adam is a representative of the spirit of God, and Eve, representative of the physical earth.
Together they formed a marriage which produced a living soul, mankind.

Because mankind then is made in the image of God and are as gods, given ruler over self and earth, there can only be but one true God and not many.

Therefore, though God created mankind as gods, the existence of many gods is not acceptable in the flesh, therefore the spirit of mankind is considered dead.

There must be then only one body, a spiritual body that must exist, that body being only the true God, by which all of humanity can be consumed into in order for each individual god to have spiritual life, or renewed life to exist after death of the body.

If you can understand all that, then you will have understood the existence of God.

Otherwise, God exists not!

I leave you with several verses to give that theory, if you want to call it that, that proves to the believer that there is but one body, a spiritual body that exists in this world by which all mankind, bar none, are, or will be part of that body.

Act 4:12 And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.

Mankind’s spiritual salvation rests in that one body, for all that there is in the physical must die.

Eph 3:6 to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.

So, my dear brothers and sisters, indeed you are, and so I am encouraged to love you as my new life’s spirit directs me to.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[mrgrumpy]

'I leave you with several verses to give that theory, if you want to call it that, that proves to the believer that there is but one body, a spiritual body that exists in this world by which all mankind, bar none, are, or will be part of that body."

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Gee, thanks for that.

Unfortunately, your verses don't offer proof of anything whatsoever. They are just a tiny figment in a large, curiously woven myth that may be appealing to some, much as Star Trek films or Hobbit stories are to others.

Since you're fond of verses however, here is one for you and MHz;

"Men, rarely if ever, manage to dream up a God superior to themselves; most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child".

Robert Heinlein

 

[MHz]

LOL at least post something new, you already posted this quote, at least this time you included the person's name.
March 9th, 2008, 03:36 PM

 

[mrgrumpy]

My goodness, what are you LOL about?.. I find that such a puerile expression..If the quote was once appropriate it may be apppropriate again.

If you are such a stickler for authorship, I assume name dropping is more important to you than substance/meaning.

How's the weather in RED DEER?
Unsettled, I would guess.

 

[MHz]

Light, forecasting darkness later today.

 

[look3467]

"Men, rarely if ever, manage to dream up a God superior to themselves; most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child".

Robert Heinlein

A quote quoted by >>>mrgrumpy

Totally disagree with that quote my friend.

You will find that throughout human history mankind was plagued with the unknown god to which they gave not only a name, a body but superior powers to.

As for the last part of that quote: "most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child". is really speaking of mankind's efforts to define their gods, not God.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

As for the last part of that quote: "most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child". is really speaking of mankind's efforts to define their gods, not God.

God appears frequently in the Bible behaving as a petty, vindictive, cruel, jealous, bad-tempered, mass-murdering psychopath. His body count's well over 2 million, according to this site, and that's just the events the Bible gives numbers for. There are some major catastrophes, like the Flood and the Passover, where no numbers are given. "The manners and morals of a spoiled child" flatters him.

 

[look3467]

God appears frequently in the Bible behaving as a petty, vindictive, cruel, jealous, bad-tempered, mass-murdering psychopath. His body count's well over 2 million, according to this site, and that's just the events the Bible gives numbers for. There are some major catastrophes, like the Flood and the Passover, where no numbers are given. "The manners and morals of a spoiled child" flatters him.

God is seen, understood and perceived by mans minds, but in the heart, He is found wanting.

Did you not use the word "appears"?

If the word used is appears, does it not indicate whether He is or not?

What then is the evidence that indicated that God is all those things which "appear" to be, whether it be here nor there?

In the case of Jesus, being a direct representative of God in the flesh, did He misrepresent Himself by demonstrating a greater act of love than what mankind did to Him?

Then what fault do you find in Him?

Pilate was there and was not a believer in this God/man, whose burden was to satisfy the whelms of the Jewish high priests, for fear of an uprising, to execute this man/God whom He found no fault.

Luke 23:4 And Pilate said unto the chief priests and the multitudes, I find no fault in this man.
Pilate attempted to remove himself from it by washing his hands of it.

But because it was a time of the year when one prisoner was given to be liberated, the choice was Barabbas, rather than Jesus.

So Pilate was obligated to perform as requested.

What was at stake here was not Jesus' safety, but the soul of mankind.

Hand not Jesus being offered up by the High priest, as it was, as a lamb for the sacrifice, the souls of mankind would have been in peril.

That was a design plan for the liberation of all mankind.

Now, based on the explanation I just gave, can you find a shred of evidence where God is all those things you said?

The act alone, should enlighten your heart, for God/man Jesus lifted not a finger against His oppressors, and went on further to request that they be forgiven .

Tell me please, so that I may not be led astray, that God did not demonstrate love and mercy to wards mankind, and that the things you said can be held against Him.

For the very words you used are forgiven you, because
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

And truly you are His friend, as you are mine, for He laid down His life for you.

Your choice not to believe it is of little significance, for your liberation has been bought and paid for in full.

The question is, can you appreciate that?

peace>>>AJ

P.S. Barabbas is representative of all of us..

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Did you not use the word "appears"?

Yes I did, but you're using a different meaning of it. That's called the fallacy of equivocation. I used it to mean just that he shows up, he appears, there he is, doing horrifying things. You're using it to mean something similar to "seems." It just seems like he's doing awful things, but he's not really, there are good reasons and explanations for it all. Well, no there aren't. I don't often express myself this way, but really at heart I think mrgrumpy's got it right. God shows up in the Bible far too often as a mean murderous bastard, and if he exists at all (which I don't believe) I have nothing but contempt for him. For example, he sends bears to massacre 42 children for the horrible crime of making fun of a supposedly holy man's baldness. That's insane, and only one of many examples of god's madness recorded in Scripture.

Reading the Bible thoughtfully and thoroughly with modern knowledge is one of the surest routes to atheism, that's how I got there, and if I ever find myself standing in front of your version of god facing a demand to account for my life, I'll tell him straight up that I think he's a liar, a cheat, a bully, and a fraud. It'll already be too late for me, according to Revelation, I'll be in the lake of fire. What's he going to do, condemn me for eternity plus three days? Pfffftttt... It's all BS.

 

[MHz]

God appears frequently in the Bible behaving as a petty, vindictive, cruel, jealous, bad-tempered, mass-murdering psychopath. His body count's well over 2 million, according to this site, and that's just the events the Bible gives numbers for. There are some major catastrophes, like the Flood and the Passover, where no numbers are given. "The manners and morals of a spoiled child" flatters him.

No doubt the Book of the Wars of the Lord will have the names and addresses of each of those slain.
I guess you would prefer your father to exhibit none of those traits as being needed to being done to secure your release from captivity. You can comfort your own children by telling them not one of those emotions would course through your veins should they be stolen from you, nor that you would commit any of those same acts (that you condemn God of doing) in securing their reunification into your arms.
2 million, how many have actually died since the time of the flood? 5X that, 10X that? When do you give Satan the 'credit' due him?
The ones whom died because of His word, what does Scripture actually say about their fate?
BTW, that body count will be exceeded in one day, current estimates would put it at about 2 billion.
Think you can do anything to prevent it? Not.
Think disbelief will spare you or your loved ones? Not.
Think you can hide anywhere in safety till that wrath is past? Not.
Think that your covenant with death will be honored? Not.
Think He cares if you are alive or dead at the end of that day? Not.
Think He will leave you to the final death in the lake?
Think He has ever failed to do what He has spoken? Not.
Think you might not know all you should know before making a judgment call?
Think He will hold that against you? Not.

So go ahead, keep spouting off about things about which you have no knowledge of. I love watching people dig holes that I will also get to watch them fill back in.

For all your reading and study and logic and reasoning your knowledge about God is similar to that knowledge being put up a gnat's ass being no different, in size, than a BB in a boxcar.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Mystic nonsense, with no basis in reality. You're deluded.

 

[MHz]

Mystic nonsense, with no basis in reality. You're deluded.

Come back when you have a come back

Yes I did, but you're using a different meaning of it. That's called the fallacy of equivocation. I used it to mean just that he shows up, he appears, there he is, doing horrifying things. You're using it to mean something similar to "seems." It just seems like he's doing awful things, but he's not really, there are good reasons and explanations for it all. Well, no there aren't. I don't often express myself this way, but really at heart I think mrgrumpy's got it right. God shows up in the Bible far too often as a mean murderous bastard, and if he exists at all (which I don't believe) I have nothing but contempt for him. For example, he sends bears to massacre 42 children for the horrible crime of making fun of a supposedly holy man's baldness. That's insane, and only one of many examples of god's madness recorded in Scripture.

Go ahead, you try to get a bear to listen to you, you are likely to end up being the meal yourself. If He doesn't exist what kind of psychosis are you under, I talk to Him because I believe in Him, you are talking to somebody you don't believe in. ROFLMAO

Reading the Bible thoughtfully and thoroughly with modern knowledge is one of the surest routes to atheism, that's how I got there, and if I ever find myself standing in front of your version of god facing a demand to account for my life, I'll tell him straight up that I think he's a liar, a cheat, a bully, and a fraud. It'll already be too late for me, according to Revelation, I'll be in the lake of fire. What's he going to do, condemn me for eternity plus three days? Pfffftttt... It's all BS.

With some help from your friends, your conclusions on certain things would not support 'thoughtfully' nor 'throughly'. More like 'I hope somebody has written something that explains this because I can't make heads nor tails out of it'. That you see your destination being the lake proves that very point.
When you meet Christ you will be doing none of that, same as you did none of that to your father when you were about 2. Your head and hands will be hanging down. Your knees will be ready to buckle in fear. After that you can ask all the questions you want, you might even want the opinion of those standing beside you as to how they felt that God caused their death and how they feel about receiving life eternal.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You want a come back, I can do that.

There is no god. There is no devil. There is no heaven. There is no hell. You can believe whatever you want about the meaning and purpose of this life and the next one, if such there be, but believing is not the same as knowing. You know with 100% certainty that you have this life, because here you are living it, you cannot know anything with such certainty about the next one. Therefore the only thing that makes sense is to live this one as if it's all there is. Love your family and friends and neighbours, love even your enemies and try to make peace with them, make the best of it that you can and hope that people will remember you fondly when you're gone and that you made a positive difference. That's the atheists' creed, and properly understood it produces moral and ethical behaviour at least as good as anything religious belief can generate, with the added advantage of being firmly grounded in observable reality.

And I still think you're deluded.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I talk to Him because I believe in Him, you are talking to somebody you don't believe in. ROFLMAO

I'm not talking to anybody I don't believe in, I'm talking to you. That's one of the dumbest things you've ever posted. It appears you neither read nor think with any comprehension. You've not laughed your ass off, you've laughed your brains out. Aren't you the same guy who said he didn't mean to be an asshole, and didn't intend to make anybody seem right or wrong? I'm sure you've heard that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. You lose. I think I'm through talking with you about this. You're not paying attention, and you're so sure you're right, and will go to such extreme lengths to avoid cognitive dissonance, you have nothing useful to teach anyone. I suggest you buy an interesting little book called A History of the End of the World by Jonathan Kirsch, it's a trade paperback available at Chapters for under $20. It's about Revelation and what it really means, and it clearly demonstrates with serious and credible scholarship that you're full of crap.

 

[MHz]

I'm not talking to anybody I don't believe in, I'm talking to you. That's one of the dumbest things you've ever posted.

These words are for somebody other than me.
"if I ever find myself standing in front of your version of god facing a demand to account for my life, I'll tell him straight up that I think he's a liar, a cheat, a bully, and a fraud."

It appears you neither read nor think with any comprehension. You've not laughed your ass off, you've laughed your brains out. Aren't you the same guy who said he didn't mean to be an asshole, and didn't intend to make anybody seem right or wrong? I'm sure you've heard that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. You lose.

Aren't you the one who says they 'throughly understand Scripture'? Go ahead, explain who 'they' refers to in Isaiah:65.
Is that good intention for one's self or for others?
I'm laughing because I've never seen you blow a gasket before. Do you find that easy to do or not easy not to do?

I think I'm through talking with you about this. You're not paying attention, and you're so sure you're right, and will go to such extreme lengths to avoid cognitive dissonance, you have nothing useful to teach anyone. I suggest you buy an interesting little book called A History of the End of the World by Jonathan Kirsch, it's a trade paperback available at Chapters for under $20. It's about Revelation and what it really means, and it clearly demonstrates with serious and credible scholarship that you're full of crap.

Why not try the book that is free? And where did Jonathan get his knowledge, from a $50 book or did he care enough to humbly ask the original author of all Scripture?
If you had ever read the preface to the 1611 version of the KJV you would know that attitude is to be expected.
"Zeal to promote the common good, whether it be by devising anything ourselves, or revising that which hath been laboured by others, deserveth certainly much respect and esteem, but yet findeth but cold entertainment in the world. It is welcomed with suspicion instead of love, and with emulation instead of thanks: and if there be any hole left for cavil to enter, (and cavil, if it do not find a hole, will make one) it is sure to be misconstrued, and in danger to be condemned. "
I would post a little more but since Scripture is a foreign language to you this will not be able to be understood either.

There is no god. There is no devil. There is no heaven. There is no hell. You can believe whatever you want about the meaning and purpose of this life and the next one, if such there be, but believing is not the same as knowing.

Gee Dex, I guess you are capable of some kind of hope after all.

You know with 100% certainty that you have this life, because here you are living it, you cannot know anything with such certainty about the next one. Therefore the only thing that makes sense is to live this one as if it's all there is.

So how does reading a book alter that? I'll be reading it for years to come, you have put it on the shelf, but where do I see your posts, in a thread that has to do with God.

Love your family and friends and neighbours, love even your enemies and try to make peace with them, make the best of it that you can and hope that people will remember you fondly when you're gone and that you made a positive difference. That's the atheists' creed, and properly understood it produces moral and ethical behaviour at least as good as anything religious belief can generate, with the added advantage of being firmly grounded in observable reality.

Somehow I think that the enemy part was 'borrowed from Scripture'. You are right though, do those things and you will have more friends than enemies when you finally hit the ground for the last time.

And I still think you're deluded.

Which makes it a thought of yours, not a fact. Besides you don't even know what my thoughts are on the Bible, other than it is an accurate and truthful document.

So, would you do all those things to retrieve your stolen child or not?

 

[look3467]

Reading the Bible thoughtfully and thoroughly with modern knowledge is one of the surest routes to atheism………>>>Dexter

As opposed to my reading the bible thoroughly and thoughtfully with modern language has been instrumental in my current view of universal salvation.

Ok, so you meant He shows up and does those things.

Literally yes, I would agree with you, but the spiritual message is what you do not see.

I will explain it to you and perhaps you might see to make a big difference from the literal rendition of it.

2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Two she bears and 42 children represent two 42 month periods equal to 3-1/2 years each doubled is 7 years, or the 7-day creation period.

The message is that mankind mocked God, and He consumed their mocking in love, where? At mount Calvary the place they called the skull.

Joh 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

The part of the skull that is bald was a sign of leprosy: Lev 13:42 And if there be in the bald head, or bald forehead, a white reddish sore; it is a leprosy sprung up in his bald head, or his bald forehead.

Jesus had to consume all sin on His way to the skull, being mocked along the way, cursed for what they were doing, Jesus paid the price for their redemption.

The 7 day week is divided into two parts, each 3-1/2 years each or 2-42 months each, of which Jesus had to redeem in order to reconcile all mankind back to the Father in Heaven.

All that I just explained is consistent with the works of Jesus, but told in story form, in a way of a mystery, and something to be sought out.

But nowhere do I see the spiritual message of a murderess God of which you speak. Literally, yes, but not spiritually, and spiritually is where the mystery lies.

Our spiritual eyes must be opened to see spiritually, save the literal.

Now please tell me you have read thoroughly and “thoughtfully” and could not see a spiritual message in it?

I can understand why you see what you see.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

My dear MHz, I have to admonish you in love.

I believe you are doing our Lord a disservice by the attitude displayed in the presence of an unbeliever.

Instead of winning hearts and influencing people,(A little Dale Carnegie there) you are placing them on the defensive.

We are not to judge the soul that Christ paid dearly for, but are to in compassion and understanding bear the burden for them in the hopes that they might see the goodness.


Psa 107:31 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!