Are the promises virtual or physical?
These two statements saying the opposite of each other.
A challenge to our dear Christian friends.
- Thread starter mrgrumpy
- Start date
Can we have a better example of the complete ridiculousness and inanity of posters such as this one? The words are utter nonsense and no intelligence can be ascribed to them.
Pathetic.
The best you could do is see if there is a high IQ Jesuit we could debate with - at least it would reduce the stupidity of YOUR posts.[/quote]
One thing that you may not be aware of is that the whole bible is redonently linked, painting a picture of the true works of God.
Consider the number 7, again, just how many times is it mentioned.
The whole bible is tied together like a fishing net, and all of it spells the works of God, in numbers, symbols and stories.
If you take them all at face value, you will not get the picture.
Peace>>>AJ
Since I do take most Scripture at face value, how did we come to basically the same understanding of who will be standing after it is all said and done?
The promises are both important and physical.
We are in the world of the flesh which is a handicap.
This handicap must be overcome only by the power of God in us.
If we latch on to His promises, He is willing to fill all our needs, some wants, and reward us with favor over the rest of the world.
Now, lets consider the plight of the unbeliever, the Lord requires only two things from mankind, one is to love God with all our hearts mind and soul, the second is to love thy neighbor as thy self.
If the unbeliever chooses the second rather that the first, they are still complying with the first, because the second is the same as the first except it is an earth action.
The ten commandments are divided into two parts, look at them an see if I am not correct in it, the first 5 pertain to the spiritual and the next five pertain to earthly things.
Those two commandments Jesus left us, encapsulate all 10 of those commandments.
If the unbeliever can do the second, they are compliant.
Peace>>>AJ
Paul said, let me quote it so that I don't misinterpret it:
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
The very simple fact, is that Christ died for the world! That is the "Good News".
So, you believe it, take the promises and trust in Him that He will deliver what He said He would do.
In that sense then, we are in total agreement.
Now, for the deep things of Gods work, there lies the different views.
But it is designed to be that way because God wants out of all the confusion, that love will animate from all of it.
Peace>>>AJ
While we are waiting for them to regroup , would you like compare the significance, if any, in our avatars.
My view of yours.
Why is one pushing the other under the water?
A 'rescue' usually has both hands grasping the other, only one hand is shown as being the 'grasping hand', Doesn't our hand come out of the water first (as in video over still) and it is then grasped by Christ but we should also be able to grasp his arm. Reaching for something usually means the seeker also grasps. I don't see any water dripping from Christ's fingers.
Two-handed grips are a stronger bond than any one-handed grip.
The splayed fingers might signify death (unable to grasp) and this sea is the sea of tears that is where that particular babylon ends up. The rising hand is symbolic of the time of somebodies release from death, the very first part available for 'pick-up' is the hand and then the arm. That is when it gets Christ's support, results in the start of eternal life. That sea of tears isn't empty until God has fished it, since it is the 'water' that is taken away he gets every little fish (nets are not a guarantee of a clean sweep).
Is the sea the sea of tears the same sea the ***** of babylon is associated with in Re?
That would seem to be a resurrectional verse also were it not for the water. That seems to be from a 'drier climate'.
Mine is a little different. When you first see 'it', the view is from a distance, it is a skull, it is death after the fact. The closer you view the skull you do not see the skull anymore but see 'two women' in a vanity', symbolically pointing to the sons and daughters of Eve, the one looking towards is the face of man and the ones whose face is hidden is the Holy Spirit, God's breath of life. (higher detail is available on picture sites that are about optical illusions, the fine detail is done in pen and ink)
http://o.pticalillusions.com/the-vanity/
In general terms of relating to Scripture, it is an example of what is being seen (read any verse) at first as being clear, it is not what the final picture makes clearer.
It is Eve in that she was the original one that fell. Adam's sin did not add any more tears than what Eve's sin had already determined.
The image that represents the Holy Spirit is a woman because that is the comforter of man at the moment. (through a mirror no direct interaction possible) Some might mistake it for God if it was an image of a bearded male. The position of the hands is patience and not prayer, prayer resulted in the very first view of whatever picture you saw (some see the skull, others pick up on the vanity first)
The bottles are symbolic of Scripture, when somebody (who was with the Holy Spirit) uses when they felt like they wanted to feel 'refreshed'.
Some can probably see only the skull, a form of blindness. Too much fear of God will keep somebody from getting closer, course once you have become just a skull you don't really have any say in the matter.
My view of yours.
Why is one pushing the other under the water?
A 'rescue' usually has both hands grasping the other, only one hand is shown as being the 'grasping hand', Doesn't our hand come out of the water first (as in video over still) and it is then grasped by Christ but we should also be able to grasp his arm. Reaching for something usually means the seeker also grasps. I don't see any water dripping from Christ's fingers.
Two-handed grips are a stronger bond than any one-handed grip.
The splayed fingers might signify death (unable to grasp) and this sea is the sea of tears that is where that particular babylon ends up. The rising hand is symbolic of the time of somebodies release from death, the very first part available for 'pick-up' is the hand and then the arm. That is when it gets Christ's support, results in the start of eternal life. That sea of tears isn't empty until God has fished it, since it is the 'water' that is taken away he gets every little fish (nets are not a guarantee of a clean sweep).
Is the sea the sea of tears the same sea the ***** of babylon is associated with in Re?
That would seem to be a resurrectional verse also were it not for the water. That seems to be from a 'drier climate'.
Mine is a little different. When you first see 'it', the view is from a distance, it is a skull, it is death after the fact. The closer you view the skull you do not see the skull anymore but see 'two women' in a vanity', symbolically pointing to the sons and daughters of Eve, the one looking towards is the face of man and the ones whose face is hidden is the Holy Spirit, God's breath of life. (higher detail is available on picture sites that are about optical illusions, the fine detail is done in pen and ink)
http://o.pticalillusions.com/the-vanity/
In general terms of relating to Scripture, it is an example of what is being seen (read any verse) at first as being clear, it is not what the final picture makes clearer.
It is Eve in that she was the original one that fell. Adam's sin did not add any more tears than what Eve's sin had already determined.
The image that represents the Holy Spirit is a woman because that is the comforter of man at the moment. (through a mirror no direct interaction possible) Some might mistake it for God if it was an image of a bearded male. The position of the hands is patience and not prayer, prayer resulted in the very first view of whatever picture you saw (some see the skull, others pick up on the vanity first)
The bottles are symbolic of Scripture, when somebody (who was with the Holy Spirit) uses when they felt like they wanted to feel 'refreshed'.
Some can probably see only the skull, a form of blindness. Too much fear of God will keep somebody from getting closer, course once you have become just a skull you don't really have any say in the matter.
The wonderful works of god, eh? Want to talk about guinea worms, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, smallpox, ichneumon wasps, the plague, elephantiasis, HIV/AIDS, lupus...? Take a closer look, it's not that wonderful, it's full of avoidable pain and suffering and disease and early death that only our own science and technology shields some of us from. I don't see the hand of a benevolent deity in any of it, what I see is the undirected working out of natural forces and heroic but unevenly and haphazardly applied human knowledge that alleviates some of it for a fortunate few of us in the so-called developed world.
A doe is killed and eaten by a wolf, the fawn survives by hiding but slowly starves to death. That is nature, indifferent and impartial. Had the wolf been a human we would call the same situation cruel, some might say evil, even.
To me, it is just unconsciously indifferent. Impartial. The very definition of fairness in a morally subjective life: there is no malicious intent nor conscious ignorance. But God is not supposed to be impartial or indifferent. In human life I see the fairness of nature and the cruelty of humans against their own kind. I never see any intervention except that of humans trying to prevent human cruelty and natural indifference. That is just human nature, not christianity.
To me, it is just unconsciously indifferent. Impartial. The very definition of fairness in a morally subjective life: there is no malicious intent nor conscious ignorance. But God is not supposed to be impartial or indifferent. In human life I see the fairness of nature and the cruelty of humans against their own kind. I never see any intervention except that of humans trying to prevent human cruelty and natural indifference. That is just human nature, not christianity.
Let me reply to MHz request and then to yours Dexter.
My avatar displays the arm of God and the arm of mankind. The sea is a metaphor for people, or a sea of people.
What I see in it is mankind attempting to hold on to Gods arm, but in despair, weakness looses hope in its own ability to hold on, looses its grip, then God who is full of hope, life and is our strength, holds on to us.
Without God surety, we are without hope.
As for your avatar, well, at first glance, I see death, not hope. Thought you mean well by what you believe it is, other than that, I don't have anything else to say about it.
Where as mine, there is hope because the one holding on is not man, but God.
My message is very simple and very clear, with no elaborate explanations, technical expertises, eloquent words, but simply, that God loves us and will save us from this environment.
Which leads me to my next post to give a response to Dexter's question.
Peace>>>AJ
My avatar displays the arm of God and the arm of mankind. The sea is a metaphor for people, or a sea of people.
What I see in it is mankind attempting to hold on to Gods arm, but in despair, weakness looses hope in its own ability to hold on, looses its grip, then God who is full of hope, life and is our strength, holds on to us.
Without God surety, we are without hope.
As for your avatar, well, at first glance, I see death, not hope. Thought you mean well by what you believe it is, other than that, I don't have anything else to say about it.
Where as mine, there is hope because the one holding on is not man, but God.
My message is very simple and very clear, with no elaborate explanations, technical expertises, eloquent words, but simply, that God loves us and will save us from this environment.
Which leads me to my next post to give a response to Dexter's question.
Peace>>>AJ
The whole foundation of earth's existence is to test mankind. The laws of nature are set into place for everything to function as designed.
Then mankind, is placed into this environment, not willingly, as I alluded to in previous other posts, but will reference that scripture here again,
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Those two underlined phrases says it all.
The test is in the existence of flesh.
Recall reading the story in Genesis that the earth is cursed? So then mankind is also cursed by having to exist in that cursed environment.
But, don't think that God is not just and fair, because in order for a soul to learn discipline, to be like as God, a must prove to it's godly attributes, which is to know good and evil.
So that in the midst of suffering, love is perfected. Unfortunately, for some, hate (or evil) is perfected, but still, God has made allowances for that too.
God did not subject us to something He Him self would not do, because He did subject Himself as a son of man, first, and then as the Son of God, endured not only His own sufferings, but that of the whole worlds to boot!
He has taken the sting of eternal separation (Death of the spirit) as a penalty for being born in the flesh, from us by He paying the price of the first part of that verse above.
The result? Is that we are given the freedom to live as we see fit, as like god, yet without penalty of eternal death.
You still are accountable here for your own actions.
As for all the deceases, pestilences, plagues, storms and the kind, are but a natural occurrences, triggered by the laws of nature, set in motion.
Now my belief is that God is able to delay, defer those laws based on our national spiritual condition.
Otherwise, regardless of who or what we are, time and chance happens to all.
On that, there is no discrimination.
Peace>>>AJ
You have described the laws set into motion in the order of things.
Into that environment, into that order of things, mankind is introduced.
Mankind, having been given dominion over those things:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
We are to discover through the sciences cures for the various diseases, plagues, manage our environment responsibly and learn to manage our own self government.
Now, on top of all that, God at various times, and places has given inspiration for proper living practices, (by laws) given inspiration for inventions, discoveries for certain cures, technical discoveries and spiritual advances.
The test of time, people, determine the progressive nature of the spiritual growth in conjunction with the physical world.
My opinion of course is based on my understandings of what I have learned, experienced, and given privy to by God.
Peace>>>AJ
A good friend of mine, who is a devout christian, has sent me a website showing what appears to be old chariot wheels, horse bones, human bones and other artifacts at the bottom of the Red Sea in a location presumed to be where Moses parted the sea. Has anyone else heard of this discovery? If so, what do you make of it? Is it real or not?
http://users.netconnect.com.au/~leedas/redsea.html
http://users.netconnect.com.au/~leedas/redsea.html
Hmmm....I would have thought the christian folk would have jumped all over this if it were true. Or at least the scientific minds would have done their best to discredit the story if it were false.
I have since discovered that the hero of our story, Ron Wyatt, has been debunked in a number of other claims, like the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant, Noah's Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah and a host of other biblical sites. He's been exposed as an archaelogical fraud.
I have since discovered that the hero of our story, Ron Wyatt, has been debunked in a number of other claims, like the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant, Noah's Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah and a host of other biblical sites. He's been exposed as an archaelogical fraud.
I think your motive for that question was in question, rather than to give an answer to it.
At least that was my thoughts on it.
But since you fessed up, I will give you my opinion on it.
I believe that there will be found some stories in the bible to have been true, whether they are or not, matters only to what God wants us to understand about them.
It is similar to my telling a story to illustrate a point. That story may or may not be a true story, but my point was what I wanted to convey.
The story of Jonah is one to where the illustration is about Jesus, buried in the mouth of the sepulcher, and on the 3rd day is spewed out, or resurrected.
The bible is full of such stories, which the point is to point at Jesus, by either using a real story or not.
For faith is not dependent on the reality of the story, but on the point of the story.
In order for Jesus to consume the worlds sins and render the world save from its lost condition, Jesus had to become all that the world is.
To consume something is to drink or eat it in it's entirety.
Peace>>>AJ
For faith is not dependent on the reality of the story, but on the point of the story.
Peace>>>AJ[/quote]
Just as reality is not dependent on faith; Reality can never be clouded by superstition.
Peace>>>AJ[/quote]
Just as reality is not dependent on faith; Reality can never be clouded by superstition.
Just as reality is not dependent on faith; Reality can never be clouded by superstition.[/quote]
I will agree to your statement. But faith, which is spiritual, which can only be acted upon by the real, is the driving force of the real.
In the case of some of the stories in the bible, having faith in the point of the story, (though the story may not be real) is faith exercised.
The story of Jonah and the wale is one such story that could or could not be real, but the point of the story is that Jesus was swallowed up in hell for 3 days, and then spewed out the third day.
Now, for unbelievers, that is one story that does not cut the mustard, but to a believer, the point of that story is that because Jesus went to hell and back, acquired salvation for all mankind.
Now, on that note, I place my faith in, and thus the story becomes real to me.
Peace>>>AJ
That goes right by me. I heard a whooshing noise as it passed by my right ear... :smile:
Testing to what end? The only reason to run a test is because your knowledge is limited. No omniscient being would need to run a test, he already knows the results. The idea is senseless.
That whooshing noise past your ear to me is understandable considering your views.
Testing to what end, is a fair question in that without two opposing points, there is no definition.
So, which point are we going to chose, is a test.
Yes, God already knows the results as I, for He made it to be that way as a designed plan.
The results is that all souls are taken care of by God's own hand.
The other side of that is our own occupation with life here on earth that must be dealt with as a matter of testing.
"Let's see, what will I do today, maybe I'll mow the neighbor lawn for them since they are an elderly couple and can hardly walk, or maybe, I will park my car passed the point where the neighbors driveway starts just to irritate him.
Good neighbor/bad neighbor, an everyday test.
If then there is nothing to demonstrate a decision, then I can say, there is no test.
Peace>>>AJ
I don't think I understand you. In fact, I'm sure I don't understand you, and I never will until I've got you sitting across my kitchen table from me with a drink of your choice in your hand--beer, wine, scotch, tea, coffee, milk, water, whatever you like--so we can hammer a few things out. I think that'd be fun. I still probably won't understand you, but the fun is the trip, not the destination.
On the north side of me lives an ancient couple, well into their 80s, both veterans of the Second World War--he was a Lancaster pilot, she was a nurse--and I couldn't ask for better neighbours. He's got a heart condition, she's got some obscure slow-moving cancer. I don't mow their lawn, they've got some veteran's service that takes care of that for them, but I do clear the snow off their driveway and sidewalks. Their service will do that for them too, but it often takes a couple of days to get around to it, and in the meantime they're trapped in their house, and I worry about medical emergencies, so when I've got my snowblower out to clear off my driveway and sidewalks, I do theirs too. And every spring the old guy shows up at my door with a bottle of fine old scotch as a measure of thanks, because he knows that's what I like.
Does god have anything to do with that? You'd probably say yes, this is some kind of test I'm passing. So far... :smile: But it seems like just elementary ethics to me: if someone needs help you can give, then you give it, and I don't see any role for a deity in that, that's just human nature. We're social animals, we help our friends and neighbours, that's how we've survived.
On the north side of me lives an ancient couple, well into their 80s, both veterans of the Second World War--he was a Lancaster pilot, she was a nurse--and I couldn't ask for better neighbours. He's got a heart condition, she's got some obscure slow-moving cancer. I don't mow their lawn, they've got some veteran's service that takes care of that for them, but I do clear the snow off their driveway and sidewalks. Their service will do that for them too, but it often takes a couple of days to get around to it, and in the meantime they're trapped in their house, and I worry about medical emergencies, so when I've got my snowblower out to clear off my driveway and sidewalks, I do theirs too. And every spring the old guy shows up at my door with a bottle of fine old scotch as a measure of thanks, because he knows that's what I like.
Does god have anything to do with that? You'd probably say yes, this is some kind of test I'm passing. So far... :smile: But it seems like just elementary ethics to me: if someone needs help you can give, then you give it, and I don't see any role for a deity in that, that's just human nature. We're social animals, we help our friends and neighbours, that's how we've survived.