A challenge to our dear Christian friends.

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
...in a Christians mind, we have all the evidence we need to convince us that God exists.
Well our little conversations are going to answer that, I'm already convinced He exists...
What you guys have is not evidence in any meaningful sense, it's hearsay, anecdote, and more or less self-serving interpretations of various emotional states. You start from the position of conviction, look for things that confirm it, and reject things that don't. You don't know what evidence is, and you don't know how to think critically. That's no slight, most people don't, it's a learned skill like any other, so not being able to do it is no different from not being able to play the piano.

I was a believer once too. I grew up in a deeply religious household and the older I got and the more I learned the less sense it all made. I couldn't get satisfactory answers to my questions from the people who claimed to know, none of the advice I was given worked, and in particular, reading the Bible thoroughly and carefully (that was some of the advice I got) in early adulthood was a profoundly disturbing experience. I had no idea god was such a capricious, murderous SOB. That's something we haven't touched on here, god as mass murderer, and I don't want to open that can of worms because this conversation appears to be coming to a logical closing point and I'd just as soon let go of it.

I'm still looking for answers to the questions I was raising with family and friends and assorted pastors and priests 30 years ago. I haven't found any, in fact all I've found is nonsense, some of it pretty clever, but nonsense just the same. So I continue to withhold belief.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
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Vancouver Island
What you guys have is not evidence in any meaningful sense, it's hearsay, anecdote, and more or less self-serving interpretations of various emotional states. You start from the position of conviction, look for things that confirm it, and reject things that don't. You don't know what evidence is, and you don't know how to think critically. That's no slight, most people don't, it's a learned skill like any other, so not being able to do it is no different from not being able to play the piano.

I was a believer once too. I grew up in a deeply religious household and the older I got and the more I learned the less sense it all made. I couldn't get satisfactory answers to my questions from the people who claimed to know, none of the advice I was given worked, and in particular, reading the Bible thoroughly and carefully (that was some of the advice I got) in early adulthood was a profoundly disturbing experience. I had no idea god was such a capricious, murderous SOB. That's something we haven't touched on here, god as mass murderer, and I don't want to open that can of worms because this conversation appears to be coming to a logical closing point and I'd just as soon let go of it.

I'm still looking for answers to the questions I was raising with family and friends and assorted pastors and priests 30 years ago. I haven't found any, in fact all I've found is nonsense, some of it pretty clever, but nonsense just the same. So I continue to withhold belief.

The perfect mix of common sense, logic, emotion, and plain old smarts, mixed with a good education brought you
to the place you live, enjoy your life where you are, many will never understand, as
they don't have the same mix, too bad for them.
 
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look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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Northern California
The perfect mix of common sense, logic, emotion, and plain old smarts, mixed with a good education brought you
to the place you live, enjoy your life where you are, many will never understand, as
they don't have the same mix, too bad for them. >>>talloola
Unfortunately, talloola, "them" see you all the same way.

So, now that both sides are equally, and diametrically opposed, but yet have the same sentiments for each other, enter AJ, with a peace branch, giving both sides the freedom to believe what they want and still be accepted into the kingdom of God.

"them" is not a very good word to use if you want to win friends and influence people.

Peace>>>AJ
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Unfortunately, talloola, "them" see you all the same way.

So, now that both sides are equally, and diametrically opposed, but yet have the same sentiments for each other, enter AJ, with a peace branch, giving both sides the freedom to believe what they want and still be accepted into the kingdom of God.

"them" is not a very good word to use if you want to win friends and influence people.

Peace>>>AJ

Nicely put AJ
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
What you guys have is not evidence in any meaningful sense, it's hearsay, anecdote, and more or less self-serving interpretations of various emotional states. You start from the position of conviction, look for things that confirm it, and reject things that don't. You don't know what evidence is, and you don't know how to think critically. That's no slight, most people don't, it's a learned skill like any other, so not being able to do it is no different from not being able to play the piano.

I was a believer once too. I grew up in a deeply religious household and the older I got and the more I learned the less sense it all made. I couldn't get satisfactory answers to my questions from the people who claimed to know, none of the advice I was given worked, and in particular, reading the Bible thoroughly and carefully (that was some of the advice I got) in early adulthood was a profoundly disturbing experience. I had no idea god was such a capricious, murderous SOB. That's something we haven't touched on here, god as mass murderer, and I don't want to open that can of worms because this conversation appears to be coming to a logical closing point and I'd just as soon let go of it.

I'm still looking for answers to the questions I was raising with family and friends and assorted pastors and priests 30 years ago. I haven't found any, in fact all I've found is nonsense, some of it pretty clever, but nonsense just the same. So I continue to withhold belief.

The perfect mix of common sense, logic, emotion, and plain old smarts, mixed with a good education brought you
to the place you live, enjoy your life where you are, many will never understand, as
they don't have the same mix, too bad for them.


There's where your wrong. I understand perfectly. The ones that don't understand are people like Dexter.

I was brought up in an RC family. I fell from the church after I was Confirmed. Things didn't make sense to me, too many things seemed to be a contradiction. Unlike MHZ I didn't have an "epiphany". Sometimein my late 30's/early 40's I started searching again. I reread, and asked for help to understand. As far as I am concerned that request was honoured. I found what I needed to understand. We all "learn" a different way.

I was where Dexter is now....I was where Dexter was growing up........ so I DO understand what he is saying, but since he really hasn't had the experience I have....HE is the one that doesn't understand.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
I was where Dexter is now....I was where Dexter was growing up........ so I DO understand what he is saying, but since he really hasn't had the experience I have....HE is the one that doesn't understand.

I think it's common to assume that if someone hasn't come to the same conclusion as you, that they must simply not have asked the 'right' questions, thought the same things. It doesn't occur to many people that sometimes walking the same path brings people to different destinations. Most atheists assume that's Christian thinking... to judge and condemn someone for where their path took them. They refuse to see when they do the exact same thing through condescension and pity, through their judgement that the religious are weaker or smaller minded or somehow less than they are.

Humans every last one of us.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
No point at all, gerryh, its just I got a chuckle out of it.

Choice happens to be the curse of us all, no one excluded.

But without it, the choice and the curse, we would never have an experience.

Experience then is the key to life, for there we find our beginning.

Freedom from that curse is what the gift is, to experience life as we see fit.

Freedom provided by yours truly, God.

peace>>>AJ
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
...HE is the one that doesn't understand.
No, that's not correct. I understand perfectly well where you and AJ and MHz and others like them are coming from, but understanding doesn't require or imply acceptance. I think you're wrong, that's all, and my reasons for thinking so are all over this message board in several thousand posts.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
No, that's not correct. I understand perfectly well where you and AJ and MHz and others like them are coming from, but understanding doesn't require or imply acceptance. I think you're wrong, that's all, and my reasons for thinking so are all over this message board in several thousand posts.

Sorry.....no you don't...... You don't have a clue.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Sorry.....no you don't...... You don't have a clue.
What, just because I don't agree with you? Clearly your implication is that if I did understand, I'd believe as you do. That's the arrogant certainty typical of a lot of true believers, and one of the reasons I don't believe as you do. I don't believe you're sorry either, in fact I'd bet what you're really feeling is scornful pity, if you're feeling anything at all. Your current sig line says it all.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
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83
What, just because I don't agree with you? Clearly your implication is that if I did understand, I'd believe as you do. That's the arrogant certainty typical of a lot of true believers, and one of the reasons I don't believe as you do. I don't believe you're sorry either, in fact I'd bet what you're really feeling is scornful pity, if you're feeling anything at all. Your current sig line says it all.


Wrong...oh so very wrong...all the way around.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
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83
Good, I'm glad to be wrong about that. So what is this "evidence sitting right in front" of me that you referred to?


Sorry Dex..... I can't tell you.....I don't know how to "open your eyes" to see and understand what I have...or MHZ...or AJ..... I am not a teacher.

What I understand and believe was not "taught" to me per say...... No "person" laid it out in front of me.....

It is something that YOU must come to terms with....... and if you don't....no biggy.... if you're right and I'm wrong....no biggy... if I'm right and you're wrong....still no biggy really. Nice thing about unconditional love....forgiveness is also unconditional. :)
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
Unfortunately, talloola, "them" see you all the same way.

So, now that both sides are equally, and diametrically opposed, but yet have the same sentiments for each other, enter AJ, with a peace branch, giving both sides the freedom to believe what they want and still be accepted into the kingdom of God.

"them" is not a very good word to use if you want to win friends and influence people.

Peace>>>AJ

I am referring to those he was debating on this forum, they are them.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
The greatest gift God could have given us is choice, but it did not come without a price.

The penalty for having the ability to have choice was death.

But, it had to first be made that way, in order for it to be experienced.

But God did not leave mankind alone to pay for Gods own makings, so God knew to correct it by offering Himself as payment, and giving us the free gift of life.

That is the good news that has not been understood correctly because we are in an environment that goes against the spiritual.

Paul stated that perfectly well in this verse:
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

That is a catch 22 situation which states, "Hey if I can't do it who can"?

The answer? Only God can.

And there lies our hope, for without Him, we are at a terrible loss, for the flesh is of this world, and if left unchecked, would destroy us.

Leave a piece of metal out in the weather, and in time it will begin to rust, to break down and eventually blend in with the earth elements.

But not so our spirits, for our spirits stop not at the death of the body, but are lifted up God wards, as He saves His on creation.

Wonderful, and gives me joy to just explain how loving this God is.

Peace>>>AJ
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Gerry, you can't tell me? Why not? Surely, if it's sitting right in front of me, all you have to do is point to it, and if I'm even halfway intelligent--and I think I'm at least that smart--I'll see it.

On another level, I do understand how difficult it can be to explain something as deeply personal as religious belief to somebody else. Even after 30 years of marriage my wife and I still have difficulties explaining things much less deep than that to each other, so your reluctance is readily understandable. I really would appreciate it if you tried though. I've seen many explanations and arguments in support of religious belief and didn't find any of them even remotely convincing, but you might have something new, some insight I've never encountered before.

Understand my motives too. I was a believer once, I had an apostasy that caused much distress to many people who cared about me, and still does, and if there's a way back that works for me, I want to know about it. I'm not asking so I can bash you, I'm asking because one of the major lessons I learned as a student of the sciences is that I must never lose sight of the fact that I might be wrong. But I need the evidence.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
I am referring to those he was debating on this forum, they are them.

Understood, but by using the word " them" in contexts with your opinion, sets yourself as higher than they.

I admit that after I posted the reply to you, I did the same thing by saying, "you all", which again would seem to set myself higher then the folks in question.

I am still learning not to do that, so as not to offend.

But hey, what good is an experience if we don't learn a thing?

Peace>>>AJ