A challenge to our dear Christian friends.

[Dexter Sinister]

Those are exactly the standards that book (of any book ever written down) should be held to.

If it's what you think it is, then yes, that is the standard it should meet, but it manifestly doesn't. What's your explanation for 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2, where the value of pi is apparently specified as 3? How is it that the creation account has god separating day from night on the first day of creation but he doesn't create any light-producing objects until the fourth day? How does he create plants on the third day without the sun to make photosynthesis work? Biblical writers also evidently thought the sun moves around the earth, the earth is on fixed foundations and doesn't move, the moon shines by its own light, the stars are either the light of heaven shining through pinholes in the sky, which is some sort of inverted bowl not very far above us, or they're little lights small enough to hold in your hand, the whole surface of the earth can be seen from certain locations on it, so it must be flat... ah, I can multiply such errors indefinitely.

I also note that Matthew, Mark, and Luke all state that when Jesus was crucified there were three hours of complete darkness all over the earth, and Matthew adds that at the moment of his death there was a great earthquake and dead saints arose and walked about the streets of Jerusalem. Odd that there's no mention of that in any other contemporary record.

 

[s_lone]

I also note that Matthew, Mark, and Luke all state that when Jesus was crucified there were three hours of complete darkness all over the earth, and Matthew adds that at the moment of his death there was a great earthquake and dead saints arose and walked about the streets of Jerusalem. Odd that there's no mention of that in any other contemporary record.

Too bad they never put the zombie saints in any of the Jesus movies...

 

[MHz]

If it's what you think it is, then yes, that is the standard it should meet, but it manifestly doesn't. What's your explanation for 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2, where the value of pi is apparently specified as 3?

1Ki:7:23: And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

It would appear that the 10 cubits was from the outside of the rim (2 men holding a line) and the 30 cubits was the inside of the rim (1 man with a wheel) leaving the 'bowl' about .226 of a cubit thick. Easy enough to measure when you have a wheel 1 cubit in circumference (apposed to a length of string which could also be pressed on the rim by a wheel if you insist on using the same string). The difference between inside and outside circumference would be 1.41 cubits (approx). When you use a wheel pi is already built in, even the Egyptians knew that as far back as the pyramid building days.

If you like these math thingies here is a link to something that I found by accident while trying to help the kids do some homework. I don't say this is intended but it does fit (apparently) into the category "isn't that weird".
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/ezekiels-city-circumference-of-the-earth.htm

How is it that the creation account has god separating day from night on the first day of creation but he doesn't create any light-producing objects until the fourth day?

Day and night were established in Vs:5, it was "time" that was established on the 4th day (Vs:14) "let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: "
So now you might as well ask how can 3 days already be past if time is only established in the 4th day.
Answer, when dealing with days linked to creation they don't have to be 24hr days, matter of fact they don't even have to be the same length. Just as an example, Eden ended about 4500 years ago, add six 0's to that you end up at 4,500,000,000 years ago for the end of the 1st day. 450,000,000 for the end of the 2nd day, etc. Each day being a different length because earth's progression was not linear, it was exponential. From when it had light to when water could be found took longer (in years) than it took for cattle and such to cover what land they did.

Here's a question, God mentions whales specifically, right after He mentions birds. (Vs:20 &21). If a bird ends up in the water and cannot fly away would it change into a whale easier (loose it's feathers, adopt flippers from wings, move it's nostrils further up it's face and leave the movement of the spine the same and leave the warm-blood as warm-blood) than a fish crawling onto land, changing the way it's spine moves, going from cold-blooded to warm-blooded and then return to the sea?

How does he create plants on the third day without the sun to make photosynthesis work?

The sun and moon were there, but not mentioned by name because all the elements that they would be used for were not all in place until they are named. If you don't buy that the only other explanation is that there was light on the earth, from all the impacts there was molten rock, I doubt there were any places where water (which is what plants really need) could be found in liquid form at that early of a date though.

Biblical writers also evidently thought the sun moves around the earth, the earth is on fixed foundations and doesn't move, the moon shines by its own light, the stars are either the light of heaven shining through pinholes in the sky, which is some sort of inverted bowl not very far above us, or they're little lights small enough to hold in your hand, the whole surface of the earth can be seen from certain locations on it, so it must be flat... ah, I can multiply such errors indefinitely.

Got any verses that state any of that? There is a lot about nature and astronomy (not astrology) in Job which would clarify one point you claim, the earth doesn't rest on anything.
Job:26:7: He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

It also states that the plane of our solar system is more or less in line with the plane of our galaxy, or maybe He was just giving us a compass point that seems to have remained in style even today.

I also note that Matthew, Mark, and Luke all state that when Jesus was crucified there were three hours of complete darkness all over the earth, and Matthew adds that at the moment of his death there was a great earthquake and dead saints arose and walked about the streets of Jerusalem. Odd that there's no mention of that in any other contemporary record.

Another example of what doesn't get published by the loosing side. Do you really think the temple leaders would allow anything like that to be published? If there were writings would they have survived the events of 70AD?
The saints that came out of the grave did so at His resurrection, not at His death, He was talking to them for the time He was in the grave.
M't:27:52:
And the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
M't:27:53:
And came out of the graves after his resurrection,
and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The historians forgot to cover this event as well.
Jos:10:12:
Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel,
and he said in the sight of Israel,
Sun,
stand thou still upon Gibeon;
and thou,
Moon,
in the valley of Ajalon.
Jos:10:13:
And the sun stood still,
and the moon stayed,
until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.
Is not this written in the book of Jasher?
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven,
and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Jos:10:14:
And there was no day like that before it or after it,
that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man:
for the LORD fought for Israel.

 

[MHz]

Too bad they never put the zombie saints in any of the Jesus movies...

LOL, it's probably not allowed to have zombies doing back-flips and jumping over buildings or pick up a dead stick and have it sprout leaves.

 

[look3467]

You seem to take the Bible as being mostly, if not all, figurative. Like the healing of the salty water (Eze:47 as an example) which means nothing about what it says.>>>MHz

Though somethings happened for real, the use of the stories to convey a message higher than what the real story originally meant.

Take for example this verse:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
The sixth seal being the 6th day, or the Friday day of the Crucifixion, is the day Jesus died, as the light to the world went dark (extinguished), as the reflection of that light, the moon (representative of the Son, was drenched in blood of the sacrifice.

That is giving us what happened that particular day in other terms.

Jesus has to visit each day of 7, meaning that in order for Him to save what was lost, He had to use the same 7 day creation story to accomplish saving every soul that ever broke the womb, to the very first set of parents.

The Book of Revelation is, just what it says it is, here read it for your self:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It is about what Jesus had to go through in order to redeem the whole world, written in terms like Dexter explained, for fear of the early believer being caught and put to death.

Now, I fully understand your point of view because I was there to, but I had to many questions that weren't being answered.

I made it my goal to study the end time scenarios, and I was dismayed that there were so many different versions of it, but I knew there had to be answer to my searchings, and after agonizing times, God gave me answers.

It is all quite simple really, Gods plan that is, but we have made it very difficult to understand, and because of the lack of understanding, we have become isolationists, segregationists, and have excluded the very folk that Jesus came to save.

To try and explain the book of Revelation is to attempt to write another book of sorts, yet without any truth in it.

If we study the book of Revelation by applying Jesus as the focus of it all, you will begin to see this mighty warrior of God, whose only weapon is love for all mankind, and the hell He had to go through to show us.

The 4 beast with six wings represent the first four days of creation, the two witnesses represent the 5th and 6th day of creation, and the 24 Elders represent the 7th day, all complete 7-day creation period that Jesus had to endure in order to save it.

All of that is one 24 hour day, and that day was taken out of time, in order to break the time span between the old and the new creation.

Here's the verse where the 6th day was taken out:
Job 3:4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.
Job 3:6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.

There is more to understanding words written as written, for they may have a totally different meaning.
Take mountains for instances, meaning kingdoms, places of high authority, or trees, representing knowledge of good and evil, or the tree of life, not really being those things but giving meaning to something other than what the words mean.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[talloola]

The comment which states that science leaves us with much doubt, is always true, but
we can't expect, in our lifetimes, to see science come to it's 'answer'. Long before us, and
long after us, science will continue to discover. If we come back in a thousand years, we
would be astonished by what they will then know, and a thousland years later, even more.

That is science, a careful, detailed research with discovery, and answers, and then move
on and continue learning, that will last for thouslands of years and more.

I admire what they have shown us to date, and I'm only sorry that I can't go along with them throughout time, to watch and admire more, but that is not the way, so be it.

 

[Kreskin]

Lets assume the big bang did occur. What came before it? When did time begin and how did it start? How did anything come to be? I think our universe is a molecule of something much bigger. Perhaps if there is a 'God' it is nothing like anything we've thought of.

 

[MHz]

Though somethings happened for real, the use of the stories to convey a message higher than what the real story originally meant.

Take for example this verse:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
The sixth seal being the 6th day, or the Friday day of the Crucifixion, is the day Jesus died, as the light to the world went dark (extinguished), as the reflection of that light, the moon (representative of the Son, was drenched in blood of the sacrifice.

That might fit in well with your view, but that doesn't mean any other explanation is not possible.
The short answer (and there is a much longer more detailed one) is that Revelation is written in the same style as Daniel. Daniel introduces the statue in Ch:2, just about all the rest of his writings added more information to what the statue introduced. The statue was more or less an index to what words followed. The main exception to that is the iron and clay, some words about that kingdom is given in Ch:2 (more than the other three at any rate), that also goes for Ch:8, when the brass closes the iron begins. Nor is the iron exempt from having it's own chapter, just as the gold, silver and brass have.
Unlike Revelation, Daniel is linear, after the gold you have the silver, after the silver you have the brass, after the brass you have the iron. Revelation has events that are viewed from a slightly different view-point that have an ending that has a common point in time. The seals in Revelation are only the 'index' to what will be written about in later verses and chapters. Just like the statue of Daniel they are not events by themselves, they are a list of events that will take place. The actual events are described in more detail by the trumps (for the most part). Although time is not given for the first four trumps the time for the last three are given. For tribulation the 3 woes they usher in are the main-stay of the events that affect men the most.
The commonality that is shared is the 6th seal is the same time as the 7th trump in Ch:11. That is Christ's return (Ch:10 is how the ones who will remain alive will see it, Ch:16 is how the ones who will die will see it) over the same day it starts for the wicked.

The Book of Revelation is, just what it says it is, here read it for your self:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It is about what Jesus had to go through in order to redeem the whole world, written in terms like Dexter explained, for fear of the early believer being caught and put to death.

It isn't a book that covers history, it is about His return, a future event when it was written and it is still a future event, in all it's horror and wonder. That is what "shortly come to pass" means, events not yet transpired.

Now, I fully understand your point of view because I was there to, but I had to many questions that weren't being answered.

I doubt our paths are quite the same but after years of questions I have more answers that questions about Revelation.

I made it my goal to study the end time scenarios, and I was dismayed that there were so many different versions of it, but I knew there had to be answer to my searchings, and after agonizing times, God gave me answers.

Yes there are many different versions, each 'most popular' view still has holes that do not seem to mesh as well as those who promote them would like. That doesn't stop them from accepting them, rather than admitting further reading is required.

It is all quite simple really, Gods plan that is, but we have made it very difficult to understand, and because of the lack of understanding, we have become isolationists, segregationists, and have excluded the very folk that Jesus came to save.

To try and explain the book of Revelation is to attempt to write another book of sorts, yet without any truth in it.

The simplicity only comes after you get through the 'difficulties'. How should truth be weighed? Would other references from Scripture put any weight on what truth is? Do the amount of verses that can be referenced increase the likely-hood that some 'thought' is based on truth?

If we study the book of Revelation by applying Jesus as the focus of it all, you will begin to see this mighty warrior of God, whose only weapon is love for all mankind, and the hell He had to go through to show us.

That is lucky for us, however to be truly safe there are those pesky fallen angels that still have to be dealt with, and were a person around to witness that it will be fear that binds you to Christ at that point in time. That is why Christians are to fear God, like in this verse.
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The 4 beast with six wings represent the first four days of creation, the two witnesses represent the 5th and 6th day of creation, and the 24 Elders represent the 7th day, all complete 7-day creation period that Jesus had to endure in order to save it.

The 4 beast around the throne are associated with 'other flesh than man' that was created. The two witnesses are what keep Satan in check during his 42 months so he cannot do more that what prophecy has said he can (and will) do. The 24 are before the throne before the heavy stuff comes down, most likely 24 of the oldest mentioned in OT Scripture or 24 of the most important Prophets of the OT. They are, again most likely, the ones that came out of the grave the same time Jesus was resurrected.

Here's the verse where the 6th day was taken out:
Job 3:4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.
Job 3:6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.

Job was reacting to what Satan had done to him in the previous chapter, basically cursing the day he was born.
Job:3:1: After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

There is more to understanding words written as written, for they may have a totally different meaning.
Take mountains for instances, meaning kingdoms, places of high authority, or trees, representing knowledge of good and evil, or the tree of life, not really being those things but giving meaning to something other than what the words mean.

Then again they might mean just what they say.
Re:14:1:
And I looked,
and,
lo,
a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,
and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,
having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

That is probably the same mountain He was on when the vision with Moses was given to a few Disciples somewhere in Caesarea Philippi.

Later

 

[darkbeaver]

You're probably right, it would be the person who killed the bunnies that would be the one apologizing. Vegetables don't don't have the breath of life that bunnies (and cats) do. If lions and such will be eating grass like an ox in the new earth, do you think Eden was like that before the fall or was it flesh consuming flesh like it is today? BTW, I don't chastise my cats when they catch a mouse or a bird. I do however, tell them to quit bringing such things into the house, still waiting for them to pay attention to that command though.

You do not assign vegetables much power do you? I believe Eden remains Eden, it did not change, we did. Give vegetables some thought and I'm sure you'll begin to see thier power, what appears to be the dominion of man I believe is a different thing when understood from the point of view of plants. The plants have allowed us the illusion of dominion. We require them they do not require us.

 

[MHz]

You do not assign vegetables much power do you? I believe Eden remains Eden, it did not change, we did. Give vegetables some thought and I'm sure you'll begin to see thier power, what appears to be the dominion of man I believe is a different thing when understood from the point of view of plants. The plants have allowed us the illusion of dominion. We require them they do not require us.

We were originally given the product trees produce as food, all other flesh were given the 'herbs' that grew for meat, one lie and it all goes poof. You are right in that the 'green things' don't require us
Well my father was a farmer way back but sold his farm once chemicals were required (along with no rest for the fields) to remain 'in the black' so I do appreciate even the soil itself. Since Eden was called a garden maybe this whole thing was created just because God liked the way the 'grass tickled His feet'.
Anyway, why didn't you keep an off-spring from your cat that passed away?

 

[look3467]

The simplicity only comes after you get through the 'difficulties'. How should truth be weighed? Would other references from Scripture put any weight on what truth is? Do the amount of verses that can be referenced increase the likely-hood that some 'thought' is based on truth?>>> MHz

How should truth be weighed, to me is the heart of the question, and I am glad you asked.

It is by demonstration that truth is made known.
Who better than to demonstrate it in action than Jesus?

If Jesus is to represent all that God is, than He must represent who, what God is in action in the flesh?
That demonstration was Gods show to mankind that despite all the abuse Jesus got, Jesus still forgave them.

You and I know that forgiveness is a hard thing to do unless you have within you the God of forgiveness.
Regardless of whether or not one is religious or not, forgiveness is of God, and anybody who has a heart of forgiveness has God in them, whether they realize it or not.

You see MHz, God placed us in this quagmire without our consent. So, He is the only one that can get us out of this mess.

There is one verse in Romans that God snuck in there that gives us a clue to what I just said: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
And it is not talking about animal creatures but the human kind, because of the word hope. Hope demands reasoning.

Now, based on that verse can you now answer the question, why did Jesus have to get beat up, lashed, crowned with thorns and crucified when He had no sin?

I mean, if we are the sinners, why should God have to be punished, have you ever thought of that?
It is because of that verse.
Mankind is mad at God for all the suffering and travail and can not understand why God would cause such suffering.
Take it out on God, blame Him, give Him no credit and beat the hell out of all His servants.
Is that not the picture that was painted then and is even today?

God is greater than all the blame He gets from us. There is absolutely nothing we can do or say that will not be forgiven us as demonstrated in the flesh by Jesus.

That is truth, and you can bank on it with your life as I do.
Let me just say, that the words, “what you sow you shall reap” are truth also regardless whether one believes in God or not, for it is a justice system implemented by God to encourage us to fly straight.

You sow discord, are dishonest, steal, unjust to your neighbor, and guess what? You will reap the same or worse, especially when you know it is wrong and still do it.

It isn't a book that covers history, it is about His return, a future event when it was written and it is still a future event, in all it's horror and wonder. That is what "shortly come to pass" means, events not yet transpired.>>>MHz

Let me quote you these verses on that: Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Note the “It is done” words and “this is the day”. The day in question is the day Jesus died on the cross, His mission accomplished as noted by the 7th trump, meaning 7 is completion, or rest by which after Jesus died, was laid to rest on the eve of the Sabbath.

His kingdom did not begin on earth, though He was crowned, for His kingdom is not of this world, but is an everlasting kingdom begun in the pit of hell.

From there He liberated all that were held in check awaiting His arrival, thus hell emptied because He had the keys of heaven to open it, and the keys of hell to liberate them.
He alone was worthy to do so in our behalf, and that is where our gratefulness, our hope is in that verse Rom: 12:20.

Now having said all that, the real truth of God is in our demonstration of love towards our neighbors as demonstrated by Jesus.

No love demonstrated, no truth, no God.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

It would appear that the 10 cubits was from the outside of the rim (2 men holding a line) and the 30 cubits was the inside of the rim

The phrase "compass it round about" clearly implies the outside circumference, but never mind. Notice how much you had to assume to come up with that?

Eden ended about 4500 years ago, add six 0's to that you end up at 4,500,000,000 years ago for the end of the 1st day. 450,000,000 for the end of the 2nd day, etc. Each day being a different length because earth's progression was not linear, it was exponential.

On what basis can you justify adding 6 zeros to it, beyond the non-biblical fact that science tells us that's how old the earth is? And I have not a clue what you mean by earth's progression being exponential. Progression to what? You're just making stuff up. I also begin to suspect you must be some type of young earth creationist, as least as far as biology's concerned.

The sun and moon were there, but not mentioned by name...

Okay, if you can get away with that, I can introduce Antiochus IV into places where he wasn't mentioned by name.

Got any verses that state any of that?

Sure. The immovable nature of the earth, for instance, is mentioned in Job 9 and 38, Psalm 18, Psalm 82, Isaiah 24, Jeremiah 31, Micah 6, Hebrews 1, 1 Chronicles 16, the sun's movement is mentioned in Joshua 10, Judges 5, 2 Kings 20, Job 9, Psalm 19, Habbakkuk 3, etc.

It also states that the plane of our solar system is more or less in line with the plane of our galaxy

Well then it's wrong again. The ecliptic is tilted 62 degrees from the galactic equator, which is perfectly clear if you go outside some clear dark night and look at how the zodiac and the Milky Way intersect.

Another example of what doesn't get published by the loosing side. Do you really think the temple leaders would allow anything like that to be published?

And do you really think the temple leaders had control of every other culture on the planet and prevented them from recording it as well? You'd think the Romans at least would have noticed, they were pretty good record keepers, and the temple leaders certainly didn't control them.

The historians forgot to cover this event as well.

FORGOT?! The earth abruptly stops its rotation for hours, then abruptly starts up again at exactly the same rate as before, this disastrous event left no geological evidence, and no other society anywhere on the planet noticed it? Isn't it more sensible just to think this is a fable? It's certainly the simpler assumption.

It's stuff like that that enables me to claim that I have a better understanding of the Bible than you do. I can read it as a religious text, or as history, myth, fable, philosophy, you name it, and use other sources to help me sort out which is which. You can't do that, you've got to force everything in it, and all other sources outside of it, to fit the presumption that it's all correct, complete, consistent, and literally true, and anything that disagrees with it must be wrong. You're never going to understand reality that way.

 

[MHz]

How should truth be weighed, to me is the heart of the question, and I am glad you asked.

It is by demonstration that truth is made known.
Who better than to demonstrate it in action than Jesus?

That wasn't really what I was asking, I was referring to Scripture, in some verses that can be a bit vague on meaning how is the truth about what is meant (in that it has one single truth) determined? Eze:47 being an example, I take it literal, you take it symbolically, only one of those views is the correct one.

If Jesus is to represent all that God is, than He must represent who, what God is in action in the flesh?
That demonstration was Gods show to mankind that despite all the abuse Jesus got, Jesus still forgave them.

The abuse Jesus suffered was determined by God, once the prophecies were given the course of events had already been set.

You and I know that forgiveness is a hard thing to do unless you have within you the God of forgiveness.
Regardless of whether or not one is religious or not, forgiveness is of God, and anybody who has a heart of forgiveness has God in them, whether they realize it or not.

That form of forgiveness is 'slightly' easier than asking somebody to forgive you for for the wrongs we do to others. There is also a limit on the number of times you are required to extend forgiveness to any one person.
M't:18:21:
Then came Peter to him,
and said,
Lord,
how oft shall my brother sin against me,
and I forgive him?
till seven times?
M't:18:22:
Jesus saith unto him,
I say not unto thee,
Until seven times:
but,
Until seventy times seven.

You see MHz, God placed us in this quagmire without our consent. So, He is the only one that can get us out of this mess.

8O You seem to have missed a character called Satan and what role he had in this quagmire we are in.

There is one verse in Romans that God snuck in there that gives us a clue to what I just said: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
And it is not talking about animal creatures but the human kind, because of the word hope. Hope demands reasoning.

Now, based on that verse can you now answer the question, why did Jesus have to get beat up, lashed, crowned with thorns and crucified when He had no sin?

We are under hope, something that exists before something (in this case redemption from the bondage of corruption) is made 'seeable'.
Ro:8:24:
For we are saved by hope:
but hope that is seen is not hope:
for what a man seeth,
why doth he yet hope for?
Ro:8:25:
But if we hope for that we see not,
then do we with patience wait for it.

Why did Jesus go through those things?

Isa:53:7:
He was oppressed,
and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa:53:8:
He was taken from prison and from judgment:
and who shall declare his generation?
for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa:53:9:
And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa:53:10:
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

I mean, if we are the sinners, why should God have to be punished, have you ever thought of that?
It is because of that verse.
Mankind is mad at God for all the suffering and travail and can not understand why God would cause such suffering.
Take it out on God, blame Him, give Him no credit and beat the hell out of all His servants.
Is that not the picture that was painted then and is even today?

Why don't people place the blame on Satan? Sin started with him and the end of sin ends with his destruction.

God is greater than all the blame He gets from us. There is absolutely nothing we can do or say that will not be forgiven us as demonstrated in the flesh by Jesus.

That's not entirely true.
M't:12:31:
Wherefore I say unto you,
All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Heb:10:26:
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb:10:27:
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb:10:28:
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb:10:29:
Of how much sorer punishment,
suppose ye,
shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified,
an unholy thing,
and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb:6:4:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb:6:5:
And have tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come,
Heb:6:6:
If they shall fall away,
to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.

That is truth, and you can bank on it with your life as I do.
Let me just say, that the words, “what you sow you shall reap” are truth also regardless whether one believes in God or not, for it is a justice system implemented by God to encourage us to fly straight.

I can fly with that.

You sow discord, are dishonest, steal, unjust to your neighbor, and guess what? You will reap the same or worse, especially when you know it is wrong and still do it.

That's true, as the verses above say, if you willingly sin after knowing about grace, that sin will not be covered by grace.

Let me quote you these verses on that: Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Eze:39 and Re:16 are referencing the same event, the world again belongs to the kingdom of God, that also ushers in a new covenant.
Re:21 is when God himself can been seen by man, again that brings in a new covenant.

The first time "it is done' was mentioned was at the cross, that also ushered in a new covenant, the covenant of remembrance (as given at the last supper).
Joh:19:30:
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
he said,
It is finished:
and he bowed his head,
and gave up the ghost.

Note the “It is done” words and “this is the day”. The day in question is the day Jesus died on the cross, His mission accomplished as noted by the 7th trump, meaning 7 is completion, or rest by which after Jesus died, was laid to rest on the eve of the Sabbath.

Only one of the three instances are past, two are yet to be.

His kingdom did not begin on earth, though He was crowned, for His kingdom is not of this world, but is an everlasting kingdom begun in the pit of hell.

He wears His crown for the first time when He returns as KING of Kings. The reason He said that His kingdom was not of this world is that this was and still is Satan's world.

From there He liberated all that were held in check awaiting His arrival, thus hell emptied because He had the keys of heaven to open it, and the keys of hell to liberate them.
He alone was worthy to do so in our behalf, and that is where our gratefulness, our hope is in that verse Rom: 12:20.

Hell isn't even open yet, He brought a few out of the grave. They are not the same place. In the story of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man defines the difference between death and hell. Lazarus was sleeping, the rich man was very aware of being somewhere that was not pleasant.

Now having said all that, the real truth of God is in our demonstration of love towards our neighbors as demonstrated by Jesus.

No love demonstrated, no truth, no God.

It's one of our Laws, it doesn't do anything to define what any certain verse means.

 

[MHz]

The phrase "compass it round about" clearly implies the outside circumference, but never mind. Notice how much you had to assume to come up with that? On what basis can you justify adding 6 zeros to it, beyond the non-biblical fact that science tells us that's how old the earth is? And I have not a clue what you mean by earth's progression being exponential. Progression to what? You're just making stuff up. I also begin to suspect you must be some type of young earth creationist, as least as far as biology's concerned.

Okay, He rounded the numbers off to the nearest 10. Would you be more impressed with Him if a numbers such as 180,000 was given as 179,846?
No justification at all. You never answered if the difference in the earth's weight would have an effect on time, mostly days and years? I got into a long conversation about Ge:1 once, turns out I'm and old earth creationist, in that 6 days do not necessarily mean 6 periods of 24hr days.
For such an old text, the sequence is in the right order, even the part about time.

Okay, if you can get away with that, I can introduce Antiochus IV into places where he wasn't mentioned by name.

The sun and moon are mentioned in Scripture, the one you mentioned is not. Why do you think Joanna and Susanna are mentioned by name?

Sure. The immovable nature of the earth, for instance, is mentioned in Job 9 and 38, Psalm 18, Psalm 82, Isaiah 24, Jeremiah 31, Micah 6, Hebrews 1, 1 Chronicles 16, the sun's movement is mentioned in Joshua 10, Judges 5, 2 Kings 20, Job 9, Psalm 19, Habbakkuk 3, etc.

you left this one out.
1Co:15:41:
There is one glory of the sun,
and another glory of the moon,
and another glory of the stars:
for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Did you want me to respond to each reference?

Well then it's wrong again. The ecliptic is tilted 62 degrees from the galactic equator, which is perfectly clear if you go outside some clear dark night and look at how the zodiac and the Milky Way intersect.

Now rewind things back to how the sky looked a few billion years ago, would it look the same? If you look straight up from Jerusalem (at the right time of the year) you will see more stars than you will if you look straight up from the top of the earth at any time of the year.

And do you really think the temple leaders had control of every other culture on the planet and prevented them from recording it as well? You'd think the Romans at least would have noticed, they were pretty good record keepers, and the temple leaders certainly didn't control them.

Coming out of the graves was a local event. What percentage of the people could even write back then. Rome recorded what was important to Rome.

FORGOT?! The earth abruptly stops its rotation for hours, then abruptly starts up again at exactly the same rate as before, this disastrous event left no geological evidence, and no other society anywhere on the planet noticed it? Isn't it more sensible just to think this is a fable? It's certainly the simpler assumption.

Is it any more sensible to discount earthquakes that only take out the enemy? Another time the sun was moved back 10deg. You would think that coming to a sudden stop would not affect a person, he should keep moving at 17,000 mph (or whatever it is). The question is not could we do it safely, it is can God do that and keep things safe?

It's stuff like that that enables me to claim that I have a better understanding of the Bible than you do. I can read it as a religious text, or as history, myth, fable, philosophy, you name it, and use other sources to help me sort out which is which. You can't do that, you've got to force everything in it, and all other sources outside of it, to fit the presumption that it's all correct, complete, consistent, and literally true, and anything that disagrees with it must be wrong. You're never going to understand reality that way.

I'm the first to admit that the last post contains 'ifs' because there is no Scripture to support the 'questions'. That isn't the case with Daniel or Revelation (in particular). That being that nothing mentioned about the iron and clay has even began.

Joanna and Susana are mentioned by name because they were mentioned in other Scripture, Joanna was the one Jesus save from being stoned for adultery, Susanna was the woman at Simon's place in the chapter before she is mentioned by name. The character of Jesus stopped Him from using their names in the stories because it was about sinning. They are mentioned once they were followers.

 

[mrgrumpy]

I'm getting a strained finger from all this scrolling through endless scriptural text, which I doubt anyone reads anyway.

Can't the bible thumpers make a point succinctly without all these extracts from the Book of Myths?

 

[s_lone]

I'm getting a strained finger from all this scrolling through endless scriptural text, which I doubt anyone reads anyway.

Can't the bible thumpers make a point succinctly without all these extracts from the Book of Myths?

You started this thread to discuss Christian beliefs, which happen to be based on the Bible... Excerpts from from the Bible are to be expected don't you think?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

For such an old text, the sequence is in the right order, even the part about time.

No it's not. The earth is created before the stars, birds and whales come before reptiles and insects, flowering plants show up before there were any land animals, and so on. The sequence is completely wrong.

Did you want me to respond to each reference?

No, don't bother, you'll just make up more stuff and I'm getting tired of this.

Now rewind things back to how the sky looked a few billion years ago, would it look the same?

No, but I thought we were talking about Job's time. There's been some precession of the equinoxes since then, but otherwise the sky would look pretty much the same as it does now.

Coming out of the graves was a local event.

The three hours of darkness wasn't.

The question is not could we do it safely, it is can God do that and keep things safe?

Well of course he could, he can do anything he wants, but that isn't the question either. The real question is, does god even exist? The evidence strongly suggests the answer is no. I know you won't accept that, you're just as convinced you've got it right as eannassir is (he's another poster here) that he's got it right, and you can't both be right because he's a Muslim, which ought to tell you something interesting about human psychology, but has no bearing on the question.

 

[gerryh]

Well of course he could, he can do anything he wants, but that isn't the question either. The real question is, does god even exist? The evidence strongly suggests the answer is no. I know you won't accept that, you're just as convinced you've got it right as eannassir is (he's another poster here) that he's got it right, and you can't both be right because he's a Muslim, which ought to tell you something interesting about human psychology, but has no bearing on the question.

The thing is Dexter, in a Christians mind, we have all the evidence we need to convince us that God exists. It's just a matter of those that don't believe either don't see/understand the evidence sitting right in front of them or they are willfully blind. Kinda like the same argument you would use for those that don't see or won't except YOUR "scientific evidence".

 

[MHz]

The real question is, does god even exist?

Well our little conversations are going to answer that, I'm already convinced He exists, I was convinced of that even before I started to read a lot of Scripture. You will have a different path than what mine has been.
This is what happened during a prayer. This happened in 1988 this was an intentional prayer, I was fully awake before and fully awake after. I wrote this out just a few years ago but seldom post it.

I started of with the Lord's Prayer and just as I was about to start my plea I got a vision that I was outside my body and saw myself, from the back and above, in a kneeling position with a mist a very short distance in front of me that obscured any further view.
I heard myself say "Master, I don't feel so good." A large hand came out of the mist and completely enclosed my body. This happened in a 'twinkling of an eye', I found myself enclosed in this hand and it scared me to no end because I struggled to be free of it's grasp but found I could move not even one little bit. This feeling of being scared lasted only for the briefest of moments.
What replaced it was the most peaceful feeling I have ever experienced, bar none, and to be quite truthful have not experienced that 'level' of peace since.
As soon as this wave of peace (meaning I was in the company of someone who cared for me much more than my words will ever be able to describe) overcame me the hand loosed it 'grip' on me and it opened and I found myself sitting on this palm facing the ends of the fingers and seeing further forward than that.
In front was a hallway, very tall and the walls were black. The walls were not smooth, but rather, had many indentations and sharp corners at these indentations. There was a faint light at each of these 'corners' and that was the only way I could tell the walls were not smooth, the rest was pitch black, I could see neither floor nor ceiling, only these faint corners.
We were moving down this hallway at a leisurely rate and as I was feeling very 'relaxed' I was going to change my sitting position so I had my hands behind my back and then I could lean back and rest on them. As I was leaning back one hand seemed to miss the expected surface that would support it and I ended up rolling to one side. I looked back to see what had 'gone wrong' and I observed a great hole in the palm of this hand. I immediately burst into tears and said with alarm "You've been hurt!"
I heard not a word but my tears left me and I spent the next few moments crawling around the hand, much like I did on the school-ground equipment when I was a small child.
This hallway had corners in addition to the indentations in that it was not straight as we have halls. We came around one corner and off to the right I could see a faint glow of light some distance down this other smaller hallway.
I asked "What's down there?" A voice (rather deep but very 'soothing') answered "You're not ready for this, but I will show you."
Off we went down this other hallway going around gently curving corners and the light got brighter with each corner we passed. In very short order we came out on a dusty,earthen path and I could see a sky. This path was rather narrow and had grass growing on either edge.
On the grass to the left there were several rabbits hopping around, a few bounds then they would stop and nibble the grass, a few more bounds, another nibble. Our presence did not disturb them in the least.
Just behind the rabbits, only a few yards from the path, was what I would best describe would be a three-wire barbed fence, not in the best of repair as the wire sagged a bit between the posts and none of the posts stood up properly but were tilted a bit at various angles.
A bit of distance from this was another fence made of planking, much like you would find around any farm that kept horses or cows, and behind were some farm buildings, house and small barn made of the same wood as the plank fence.
All the wood was very weathered but the condition of the buildings and fence would not warrant paint as this would be a waste because of their condition.
As I looked over at this scene I noticed several dogs in the yard. There was much running and yelping and much dust from all this activity. I could not determine if this activity was caused by our presence or not and if, in fact, the dogs were playing or it was a somewhat more serious matter they were involved in. The circles they made were small and done in quick fashion so in the short time I observed them they completed many circles.
The path we were on also had the gentle twists and turns like the hallways we had just came from did. We continued down this dusty path and came around another corner and came to a stop. The path ended here and was replaced by a large open space covered in lush grass, a short distance from us I could see gently rolling hill. I could see far enough to see three or four 'rows' of these hills, one behind the other. Very beautiful and serene but what was most astounding about these hills was that they were completely covered by people, standing so closely together that not one more person could have stood with them. There was a small open space between where the path ended and this large crowd stood, which is how I knew the grass was so lush.
On this grass, about midway between the end of the path and where the crowd started stood two people, one man, one woman. As remarkable as this whole scene was I was still even more astounded to see not one strand of hair on any of their heads, not one anywhere.
The two in front spoke no words but it was quite plain they were pleased to see 'Him'. No words were spoken to any from 'Him' either.
We turned and went back from where we had come from. Back into the little hallway till we turned left at the larger one.
We continued down this for some distance until we came to a doorway that was on our left.
I heard a voice say "This is a safe place for you."
The door opened and I went inside to a circular room about 50 steps in width. The room was decorated in many shades of brown and the 'outer wall' had shelves that went way round all filled with books. The middle had furnishings that matched the colors of the bookcases.
The door closed and I was alone.
I stood for a moment and went to the door and opened it just a crack. What I felt was sheer terror, and quickly re-closed the door and felt the terror was gone, as long as the door remained closed.
What was outside was not only terror but evil in that it had nothing good planned for me should I be foolish enough to open my door and go into the passage on my own.
I woke up at point.
It never happened again with this intensity.

So now it's just a waiting game, for me it's to experience something I have already had a small taste of, for you... well who knows when and in what manner He will come for you.

Later

 

[look3467]

Well, MHz
All I can tell you is that in times passed I had had all the same arguments you are debating here.

The typical answers are all of what Christianity hold, but outside of that, there are more answers.

I had to look outside of the normal traditional views (such as you have) of things in order to get a different perspective of those same things.

It is much like being inside a bottle and seeing only what is in side the bottle, where as looking at it from the outside looking in, gives a whole new understanding of those same things.

To venture out of that norm was considered a grave risk for fear of loosing my soul.
But I risked it and forged forward to find that God is more wonderful and gracious than I ever thought before.

You have to give the bible its spirit of truth, but not every word is to be taken literally.
Some do some don't, it all depends on the spiritual truth to be extracted.

You gave for instance the verse of forgiving 7x7. Are are familiar with the year of jubilee?

If Jesus accomplished His forgiveness in 7 creation days as one day, then the 7x7 year of jubilee is the freedom.

7x7=49=50 meaning the year of jubilee where mankind receives its freedom.

That is what it really means, but all the same, it gives us a guide as to how many times we should forgive, and if it go passed that, than you forget the rest, for you give it all up in freedom.

You should instant message me to discuss this further if you'd like.

Peace>>>AJ