A challenge to our dear Christian friends.

mrgrumpy

Electoral Member
MHz - are you back from church yet? Got the half ton all polished up? How's the weather in RED DEER?

Yesterday you were prattling on about the the distinction of scripture being hateful or not vis a vis the OT and NT.It seems you accept that the OT is hate literature and full of nastiness, but God has since improved himself and straightened up in the NT which is all goodness and sugar cookies, eh?

Sorry to disapoint, but the new testament is full of hatred too, albeit perhaps in a more subtle form. And the underlying nastiness of the newly refurbished God with a beard and sandals has done more to hurt humanity, even in our lifetime , than pious church goers would admit.

In the new testament, particularly the Gospel of John, "the Jews" are villified and called Sons of Satan. Until recent decades many Christian denominations held that Jews and their descendants, down to the present day, were responsible for Jesus' execution. This laid the groundwork for Christian persecution of Jewish people and set the stage for the holocaust of the 20th century.

Canada was not immune from this inhumanity either - turning away Jewish refugees in the 1940's with the glib comment of a politician who said of Jewish immigration to Canada - "none are too many". A Christian politician that is.

Religious exclusivity is also found elsewhere in the Gospel of John and some epistles which claim to have been written by Peter and Paul. A frequent message is that followers of other religions hold invalid beliefs which were wrong, deluded, immoral and /or heretical. These authors condemned fellow Christians, who followed different sects within the Christian community, such as the Gnostic Christians and Jewish Christians.

Of course the so-called Chriistian community today is a conglomeration of feuding religions and sects.One has only to look at the rapidly disintegrating Anglican Union to see that the cause of their disagreement is centuries old text about homosexuality, and a complete absence of modern day common sense.

Hope this is educational for you.

Will Mr. Stelmach win the election, do you think?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
lol
Um, I read Grumpy's frst post in this thread and I think he is just providing his own brand of hate. It just happens to be against faith in deities.
As for the rest of the bits that I read here and there, I stand right where Dex is standing. There is no evidence to support the belief in superstitions and man has always thought that if something is more powerful than him, there must be a demon or god or poltergeist or some such silly thing behind it. As Dex said, it is BS. It's not even a decent hypothesis. The device, entity, machine that is more powerful than us is simply the natural universe. It is nature. Worshiping it is foolish. Respecting it for what it is and does is wise.

Reverance for nature is natural, worship of nature is normal, the method of worship is the crux of the debate of this thread. Proper worship is not blind adherance to ritual and myth but is properly founded on the observable facts of nature and it's celestial cycles. I consider worship and awe (teaching and the observable truths of nature) as elementry good and distinctly positive cultural features but when as in the case of christianity the worship over time and abuse strays into a position diametricly in opposition of its origins then we have as now only a transfer of damaging and dangerous superstition. It's not worship but what is worshiped that represents the problem. The word means respect or recognition of worth, which of course can and should be applied to luner cycles, solar cycles,bugs etc;
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
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I'm not a fan of organized religion. What I struggle with are the age old questions, like 'when did time begin and how?' To narrow down the explanation of all things in the universe to what scientists on Earth believe they are or not isn't completely satisfying to a great many. There is a lot we don't know and never will, thus people are going to believe a lot of theories, not just what rational scientists tell them. To be ridiculed over that isn't exactly fair given the ridicule isn't followed by any proven explanations on the big-picture questions.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
True Jesus's death was part of prophecy, and so were many things that lead upto that. Does that excuse them from the deaths of others who God sent to them, OT prophets, Stephen and the persecution of Christian around the same time? I don't think it does.
Sure it does, it excuses everything, for all time, for everybody. It means god, if he has the characteristics usually ascribed to him, orchestrated the whole thing from beginning to end, he's responsible for it all, he knew exactly what everybody was going to do and nobody had any real choices in the matter.

I have never been able to resolve the logical inconsistency between an omniscient, omnipotent god and human free will. I don't see how they can coexist, and that's the point that's always stopped me from accepting any version of religious belief; it just doesn't make any sense to me. You can't meaningfully be said to have a choice if somebody else already knows with perfect accuracy what you're going to do. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that this omni-everything god exists, as does Heaven, where some people will go in the next life, and there's a Hell, where certain other people will go. I can't know which place I'm going to end up in, it's not given to me to know that, but god, by definition, must know it. And there's nothing I can do in this life to change my final destination, it's already established. In what sense can I be held responsible for what I do if all my actions and their consequences are already known? I have no power to change any of them.

I don't see how omniscience and omnipotence can exist either, really (can god change his mind, for instance?), but that's another subject.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
Sure it does, it excuses everything, for all time, for everybody. It means god, if he has the characteristics usually ascribed to him, orchestrated the whole thing from beginning to end, he's responsible for it all, he knew exactly what everybody was going to do and nobody had any real choices in the matter.

I have never been able to resolve the logical inconsistency between an omniscient, omnipotent god and human free will. I don't see how they can coexist, and that's the point that's always stopped me from accepting any version of religious belief; it just doesn't make any sense to me. You can't meaningfully be said to have a choice if somebody else already knows with perfect accuracy what you're going to do. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that this omni-everything god exists, as does Heaven, where some people will go in the next life, and there's a Hell, where certain other people will go. I can't know which place I'm going to end up in, it's not given to me to know that, but god, by definition, must know it. And there's nothing I can do in this life to change my final destination, it's already established. In what sense can I be held responsible for what I do if all my actions and their consequences are already known? I have no power to change any of them.

I don't see how omniscience and omnipotence can exist either, really (can god change his mind, for instance?), but that's another subject.

First of all I would like to say that something good has to come out of something that is not good in order to differentiate the difference.

I say this because of this one verse in Genesis:
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Looking at those words and applying it to a fetus yet unborn, the spirit of God gives it life, now has form, is in total darkness (Lack of knowledge) nestled in the deep waters of the womb, awaiting entrance into the world.

That is a similitude of creation, a similitude of our spiritual understanding.

Until this present day where knowledge has increased by leaps and bounds, light in the form of knowledge has abounded in favor of spiritual truths, to the point where a clearer picture of the love of God us ward has been revealed.

Many gods can not exist in the one God system, for the bible says that there is only but one god. Meaning that all other gods must die, and in which they do.

Now, the only possible way for the other gods (meaning us, as gods) to have fellowship with the one God is to become one with Him, to become one body of believers, that body being the body of Christ.

That is the only way that we can have life after death.

Your next question is of course is that God requires all to believe in Jesus as the majority of Christians preach, but not so, for Jesus came to save the world as it is, just and unjust alike, without any effort on our part.

All the seemed contractions in the bible, the OT and the NT, are confounding, as in like the verse I quoted above.

Confounding, meaning darkness for lack of true light knowledge, but there so that light might be shed, so that out of darkness we will be drawn to the light.

The experience of it all is the object.

The only consequence is of our own making, payable up to the point of death, and after that, payment in full, and Jesus waiting for us as master of our souls.

Arguments concerning His word, the bible, the Koran and any other form of literature, are all confounding, but necessary for the shedding of true light which, can only be found in the heart.

Peace>>>AJ

 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
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Red Deer AB
MHz - are you back from church yet? Got the half ton all polished up? How's the weather in RED DEER?
Actually it was a knock on my door that awoke me from a most pleasant sleep, it appears you are are all rested up also. I don't think you are supposed to polish something that is flat-black. The IROC is a different matter but since it's parked for the winter why bother with the polishing just yet. Yes we are having weather in RED DEER today, how 'bout you, are you having some weather also?

Yesterday you were prattling on about the the distinction of scripture being hateful or not vis a vis the OT and NT.It seems you accept that the OT is hate literature and full of nastiness, but God has since improved himself and straightened up in the NT which is all goodness and sugar cookies, eh?
Actually all the nasty things God did in the OT will be overshadowed by what happens on the Day of the Lord, which will be overshadowed by what happens on the last day before Judgment Day. From Isaiah on just about every passage that has 'that day' in it is about the day of the Lord.
Don't want you to be under the impression that God being capable of being 'nasty' is all in the past, luckily He is selective about who 'sees nasty' and who actually 'feels it'.

Sorry to disapoint, but the new testament is full of hatred too, albeit perhaps in a more subtle form. And the underlying nastiness of the newly refurbished God with a beard and sandals has done more to hurt humanity, even in our lifetime , than pious church goers would admit.
The Church was given a mandate to spread the Gospel, that's their whole mission. The guardianship against evil is beyond their mission and means. That isn't saying Jesus didn't leave somebody in charge of that aspect of human lives.
There are two swords, one is in Heaven (the strongest one), the other has been given to some men. They are His servants on Earth during His absence, but it is not the Church, it is Governments. So ant atrocities committed by the Church must have had a blessing from whatever Government that controlled the land that the injustices were done on.
The chapter that gives this info is Romans:13.
Ro:13:1:
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
For there is no power but of God:
the powers that be are ordained of God.
(the ones who yield power on Earth are allowed that power only because God allows it to be so, no matter how much power they have they are not more powerful than God)

Ro:13:2:
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power,
resisteth the ordinance of God:
and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
(to go against those who have power over the affairs of man is to go against God, never a wise move BTW)

Ro:13:3:
For rulers are not a terror to good works,
but to the evil.
Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power?
do that which is good,
and thou shalt have praise of the same:
(when this was laid down the rulers were those who were considered to be the 'Government' of the land, the Church never was and never will be 'rulers'. Follow the rules laid down by Government and you have it fairly easy, go against their rules and you life will not be a easy one)

Ro:13:4:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good.
But if thou do that which is evil,
be afraid;
for he beareth not the sword in vain:
for he is the minister of God,
a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
(it is rulers that control the sword, break the law and it is not the Church that comes knocking on your door, it is those that Government have given 'instruments of enforcement' to that are at your door.)

Ro:13:5:
Wherefore ye must needs be subject,
not only for wrath,
but also for conscience sake.
(no explanation needed)

Ro:13:6:
For for this cause pay ye tribute also:
for they are God's ministers,
attending continually upon this very thing.
(think taxes, which far outweighs anything the Church receives from 'subjects')

Ro:13:7:
Render therefore to all their dues:
tribute to whom tribute is due;
custom to whom custom;
fear to whom fear;
honour to whom honour.
(again this fits Government more closely than it does any Church. The rest of the chapter defines the difference between being a good citizen and being an evil one)

Do you really think it is 3 individuals, or 3 Churches, in the verse below compared to 3 different Governments?

Zec:11:8:
Three shepherds also I cut off in one month;
and my soul lothed them,
and their soul also abhorred me.

Matthew:25 explains that 'goats' are Christians that have heard how they are to act but simply refuse to act properly, the shepherd is above them, Governments are above members of the Church (both sheep and goats).

This next set is also about Government rather than the Church, no matter how important a person is in a group of 'Christians' they are still all 'part of the flock'.
Isa:56:10: His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
Isa:56:11:
Yea,
they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
they all look to their own way,
every one for his gain,
from his quarter.
Isa:56:12:
Come ye,
say they,
I will fetch wine,
and we will fill ourselves with strong drink;
and to morrow shall be as this day,
and much more abundant.

You can't help but notice that the ones listed in this chapter the verses below come from are about Nations, not Churches, making it quite clear that shepherds are the ones who rule the nations.

Jer:25:31:
A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth;
for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations,
he will plead with all flesh;
he will give them that are wicked to the sword,
saith the LORD.
Jer:25:32:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.
Jer:25:34:
Howl,
ye shepherds,
and cry;
and wallow yourselves in the ashes,
ye principal of the flock:
for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished;
and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
Jer:25:35:
And the shepherds shall have no way to flee,
nor the principal of the flock to escape.
Jer:25:36:
A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
and an howling of the principal of the flock,
shall be heard:
for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.
Jer:25:37:
And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

In the new testament, particularly the Gospel of John, "the Jews" are villified and called Sons of Satan. Until recent decades many Christian denominations held that Jews and their descendants, down to the present day, were responsible for Jesus' execution. This laid the groundwork for Christian persecution of Jewish people and set the stage for the holocaust of the 20th century.
Maybe you should read Jeremiah:26, that is when things were determined, killing people (or attempting to) sent to them by God does make them just what Jesus said they were.


Up until their last exile it was Jews persecuting Christians, I doubt even exile put a stop to that practice. Are you saying Hitler (and whoever else) were Christians?

Canada was not immune from this inhumanity either - turning away Jewish refugees in the 1940's with the glib comment of a politician who said of Jewish immigration to Canada - "none are too many". A Christian politician that is.
Yes I remember reading that Hitler offered to send train-loads of Jews to the west and the west refused the offer. The Warsaw memos shed even more light on things back then.

Religious exclusivity is also found elsewhere in the Gospel of John and some epistles which claim to have been written by Peter and Paul. A frequent message is that followers of other religions hold invalid beliefs which were wrong, deluded, immoral and /or heretical. These authors condemned fellow Christians, who followed different sects within the Christian community, such as the Gnostic Christians and Jewish Christians.
Especially those in Corinth, the Thessalonians seemed to catch on pretty quick. Are you saying conduct such as this example should not have been addressed?
1Co:5:1:
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,
and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Of course the so-called Chriistian community today is a conglomeration of feuding religions and sects.One has only to look at the rapidly disintegrating Anglican Union to see that the cause of their disagreement is centuries old text about homosexuality, and a complete absence of modern day common sense.
Probably better they (all Churches) keep feuding since most doctrines they preach has at least some amount of error in it, obviously some more than others. The 7 letters to the 7 Angels of the 7 Churches is not shy about listing both the good and not-so-good points about the state the Church has been in and will stay in until things are set right.

Hope this is educational for you.
LOL, quite educational, never dreamed I could learn so much about you in such a short period of time.

Will Mr. Stelmach win the election, do you think?
Probably doesn't matter who becomes Premier, the course of what will be is already set. Do you think pot-holes would be a good enough reason to declare an emergency that would allow American troops in to fix them? Then again they seem to be better at making holes in the ground compared to smoothening them out.

I still have my "Republic of Alberta" t-shirt from the 70's in it's original packing, think I'll ever be able to wear it as something that is actually valid?
 

mrgrumpy

Electoral Member
I'd keep your tshirt where it is since most Albertans I know are too busy destroying the envronment in a lust for wealth to be concerned with separation.

Where did you come up with this 7 letters to 7 angels at 7 churches stuff?

I see you agree with my premise that the Book of Myths is actually hate literature; although you don't say so directly , you do agree with the Gospel calling Jews Sons of Satan.

By the way, what is a good Christian such as yourself doing pounding away on your keyboard on the Sabbath?...shouldn't you be following your Lord's direction and be out stoning unruly children, adulterers and homosexuals? Maybe you could use your IROC to run them over? Would that fulfill your duty as a servant of the Lord, obeying His every command? Just curious...
 
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MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Sure it does, it excuses everything, for all time, for everybody.
A lot of this is going to be speculation on my part so it is going to contain some 'ifs'. To determine if God is a kind and forgiving God you would have to compare some numbers, mankind started out as 2, that number keeps increasing with time. When Judgment Day arrives there is going to be "X" number of people born up to that point. If God is full of mercy then those who are alive by the time the last verse of Re:20 is said to be past is going to be X-0. God left Satan on the earth after he sinned, things that people did after that rests on Satan's shoulders (and any fallen angels but they ceased to have any influence after the great flood)not on each individual man. God caused some deaths after the flood either by saying such and such should be killed (mostly after the 40 years in the wilderness) or through prophecy that still has yet to be fulfilled. I'm not sure why it is assumed that those numbers will be taken away from "X" at Judgment Day (being as it is those who were the 'worst of man'). Each person should have the very same chance at salvation irregardless of what prophecy has been given. Anything less is not perfect justice. The best example that comes to mind is the prophecy that said one man would betray Christ, that being Judas. That would seem to eliminate one man from being able to see salvation. Under the rules of the day Judas repented before he killed himself. That would seem to be enough to take away any curse he was under.
Under perfect justice when is any man judged, does judgment come to everybody when they are at a different age or when they reach a certain age?
I'm quite sure this next section is accurate as far as understanding when a person can be judged as being eligible for the fiery lake.
When man first began to increase in numbers God gave each man a certain number of years, 120 before His spirit would be taken away. Some obviously lived longer than that but those were ones that God had approval for. The vast majority of men never made it to that 120 year mark.
Ge:6:3:
And the LORD said,
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

(since this chapter is open there is another verse I want to bring up in that it has to do with God's relationship with man.
Ge:6:5:
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Ge:6:6:
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth,
and it grieved him at his heart.
Ge:6:7:
And the LORD said,
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man,
and beast,
and the creeping thing,
and the fowls of the air;
for it repenteth me that I have made them.

At first glance it appears that God is very displeased with mankind, the who He is displeased with is Satan and the fallen angels (sons of God mentioned at the beginning of that chapter). They are the ones who have been caused the violence, even if man was against man. God was feeling sorrow for what was happening to men so sending the flood was basically putting them out of their misery. Fallen angels also were taken away during the flood, not by drowning but by 'saints from Heaven', De:33:2 & Jude:1:14. That is when they were put in the well without water).

Back to the 120 years, even though this verse is about the new earth (after Judgment Day) it still has bearing on what was said in Ge:6 in that there will be babies born to some and they are still subject to judgment at a certain age.
Isa:65:20:
There shall be no more thence an infant of days,
nor an old man that hath not filled his days:
for the child shall die an hundred years old;
but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

infant= a person under the age of 20 (the age given in the OT of when a man can be sent into battle)
old man= somebody who has reached the age of 120, then then go on to live for eternity (if judged to not be a sinner, which none are BTW)
child=a person between the age of 20 and 120, the child dies in that they are no longer a child but pass over to being considered an old-man.
sinner=somebody between the age of 20 and 120 that would be sent to the fiery lake if found guilty of being a sinner. Here is why none will be.
sa:65:23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.

How does this play out for people born between Adam and Eve and the last person born before Christ's second coming (in that those alive for the 1,000 years are a static population that neither increases nor decreases. It depends on what age people come out of the graves and hell at Judgment Day. If they come out at the same age as they were when they went to those places then they are 'standing around' until they would be 120 before they get their 'interview'. (based on God saying a thousand years is like one day, alluding to the 1,000 years Christ has on earth before Satan is unbound, and one day is a thousand years, the length of 'time' from the start of Judgment Day and it's end)
Or when resurrected they are all at the age of 120 and they have had years given to them while in the grave or in hell and they were taught while in those places,
1Pe:4:5:
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe:4:6:
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.

Either way I doubt God will judge anybody who has not reached that age.

It means god, if he has the characteristics usually ascribed to him, orchestrated the whole thing from beginning to end, he's responsible for it all, he knew exactly what everybody was going to do and nobody had any real choices in the matter.
That still relates to who is standing at the end of the final judgment. It wouldn't make sense for everybody who will be saved be saved when the ruler of the world (when death also exists) is Satan.

I have never been able to resolve the logical inconsistency between an omniscient, omnipotent god and human free will.
Even the Angels seemed to have free-will, they would also seem to be under some sort of Law, without Law there is no sin and Satan was found guilty of being a liar and a murderer way back in Eden.

A point of speculation might be did God know that Satan would succeed in tempting Eve, or that he would even tempt her. Man was given a Law about eating from the tree, Satan was probably under the same Law that will apply to man after Judgment Day (given in Re:21). That might mean that the innocence of man was the same thing to Angels that the tree was to man.

Then maybe Satan thought he should be given dominion over something (being the highest angel) rather than dominion being given to man over something (living things that resided on the earth). If his wish was for a dominion he does get one, just not the one he desired, he gets the lake instead and probably no guarantee that he will be the top of the heap there. If man will mock him while he is bound for that 1,000 years I doubt the 1/3 of all angels that fell are going to be very pleased with him either.

I don't see how they can coexist, and that's the point that's always stopped me from accepting any version of religious belief; it just doesn't make any sense to me.
I can't answer that with anything other than an opinion. I don't know why there has to be this stretch of time between the original fall and the end of Satan. I do know that there will be "X" number of people that will be staying in New Jerusalem and He might want a certain # that start the new earth. It could also be that the tree of life isn't ripe yet, which might be some sort of answer as to why Adam and Eve didn't go to that tree right after they ate from the other tree. I'm quite sure that God has only done enough to keep salvation possible. Noah was the last of man that was perfect (without any fallen angelic blood) in that he was the same as Adam. It could also have something to do with Christ, even though He was with God from the very beginning God was still showing Him things. I just don't see the description of Him given at the beginning of Revelation as being what He would have looked like in these verses.
Proverb:8:22:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
Proverb:8:23:
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Proverb:8:24:
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverb:8:25:
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
Proverb:8:26:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Proverb:8:27:
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Proverb:8:28:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Proverb:8:29:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Proverb:8:30:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Proverb:8:31:
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.

You can't meaningfully be said to have a choice if somebody else already knows with perfect accuracy what you're going to do.
Correct

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that this omni-everything god exists, as does Heaven, where some people will go in the next life, and there's a Hell, where certain other people will go.
It would seem that Heaven (actually the 3rd Heaven) is only a palce that man visits for a short time. If Jerusalem is enlarged to be 1,500 mi./side maybe the new earth is enlarged by that same factor, or the 'old heaven' (currently home for the Angels) is the 'new earth' and the Angels move over to another 'new heaven'. However it works I doubt space limitation will be any factor on how many people see these new things.
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.

That place would seem to be where the city of God is, in that if He made the heaven that is home to Angels He was still somewhere when He accomplished those feats. Kind of like going from a single universe (what we can see these days) to a multi-verse that would mean the number of stars in our universe is about the same number of other 'big-bangs'

I can't know which place I'm going to end up in, it's not given to me to know that, but god, by definition, must know it.
Even those that end up in hell are only there for a set time, hell is empty when Judgment Day happens.

And there's nothing I can do in this life to change my final destination, it's already established.
If the parable of the workers and the penny can be applied here not everybody is called at once, those called last receive the same reward as those who have been in the field longer.

In what sense can I be held responsible for what I do if all my actions and their consequences are already known?
The only consequences I can see is if a person is destined for life in new Jerusalem or life in the new Earth, the first probably being the preferred over the 2nd, but even that would't seem to be a 'hardship'. I doubt those that will be 'tilling the soil' will also be pulling the plows.

I have no power to change any of them.
I still stand by the Scripture that says you can't reject Christ before you actually meet Him.

I don't see how omniscience and omnipotence can exist either, really (can god change his mind, for instance?), but that's another subject.
Once He has spoken something? No He doesn't change it, that is actually a good thing in the end, makes the path to there a little unpleasant for some though.
Psalms:110:4:
The LORD hath sworn,
and will not repent,
Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Jer:4:28:
For this shall the earth mourn,
and the heavens above be black:
because I have spoken it,
I have purposed it,
and will not repent,
neither will I turn back from it.

Later, feel free not to answer point by point as this is pretty long already.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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I'd keep your tshirt where it is since most Albertans I know are too busy destroying the envronment in a lust for wealth to be concerned with separation.
Not my fault that the printing presses have to run overtime so I can go about putting some of that oil back on the ground.

Where did you come up with this 7 letters to 7 angels at 7 churches stuff?
The first few chapters of Revelation, did the RCC do away with that book?

I see you agree with my premise that the Book of Myths is actually hate literature; although you don't say so directly , you do agree with the Gospel calling Jews Sons of Satan.
Lets see, killing all those 'forms of life' in the temple when an acceptable substitute was 'fine flour' and charging people money so their sins could be covered, yea, Jesus was right when He overturned the tables of the money-changes both times.

Isa:1:10:
Hear the word of the LORD,
ye rulers of Sodom;
give ear unto the law of our God,
ye people of Gomorrah.
Isa:1:11:
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?
saith the LORD:
I am full of the burnt offerings of rams,
and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs,
or of he goats.
Isa:1:12:
When ye come to appear before me,
who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Isa:1:13:
Bring no more vain oblations;
incense is an abomination unto me;
the new moons and sabbaths,
the calling of assemblies,
I cannot away with;
it is iniquity,
even the solemn meeting.
Isa:1:14:
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth:
they are a trouble unto me;
I am weary to bear them.
Isa:1:15:
And when ye spread forth your hands,
I will hide mine eyes from you:
yea,
when ye make many prayers,
I will not hear:
your hands are full of blood.
Isa:1:16:
Wash you,
make you clean;
put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes;
cease to do evil;
Isa:1:17:
Learn to do well;
seek judgment,
relieve the oppressed,
judge the fatherless,
plead for the widow.

By the way, what is a good Christian such as yourself doing pounding away on your keyboard on the Sabbath?...shouldn't you be following your Lord's direction and be out stoning unruly children, adulterers and homosexuals? Maybe you could use your IROC to run them over? Would that fulfill your duty as a servant of the Lord, obeying His every command? Just curious...
I already explained that yesterday was the day of rest, HELLO.
I don't think anybody would fit under the spoiler, why do you think it's parked for the winter? It pushes snow even if I'm right behind the snow-plow.
Why do you spend so much time in 'Church' when you keep saying you have rejected Christianity?
M't:18:20:
For where two or three are gathered together in my name,
there am I in the midst of them.

You seem awfully cheerful today.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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One verse says it all:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

In between "subjected to vanity and subjected the same in hope" is all that any argument is all about.

That is cutting it to the chase, for there is where God is doing all the work without any effort on mankind's part.

Now, filter through all of that, and see the love of God poured out in Jesus for all mankind, and you will see that all that matters in this world is that we learn to be a good neighbor.

Two commandments Jesus left us, the first, if you don't want to abide by it, then abide by the second one.

Here they are, Love God with all thine heart, mind and soul, the second is to love thy neighbor as they self.

There is absolutely nothing complicated about those two.

Mankind has convoluted it all to fit their agendas, missing the whole point of those two commandments.

Peace>>>AJ
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Later, feel free not to answer point by point as this is pretty long already.
Okay, I won't. I wouldn't have anyway... :smile:

In point of fact, your entire argument is lost on me, because I believe your basic premise, that the Bible is to be taken literally, is wrong. You're obviously a biblical literalist to some degree, and believe, for instance, that Revelation is a prediction for the future. It's not, it's a diatribe about the political and religious situation that existed at the time it was written, carefully couched in symbols and metaphors its readers--the seven churches it's addressed to--would have understood, for reasons that we would now call deniability.

Those symbols and metaphors are no longer familiar to us, so the book is a pretty hard and confusing thing to read. Anybody who pays attention to the news knows now that when a jihadist refers to The Great Satan these days, he means the United States. Similarly, the beast with the seven heads and ten horns in Revelation is the Roman Empire of the time. Apocalyptic writings are full of references like that, and if you don't know what they mean in the context of their times, you'll never make proper sense of them. Instead people will do what you've done, invent other meanings to suit some other agenda.
 

Avro

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It's hilarious on many levels that conspriacy guys dump on religion.

Yes, god is fake but somehow GWB caused 9/11 to further his Dads oil interests.

What a joke you are.:lol:
 

MHz

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Okay, I won't. I wouldn't have anyway... :smile:

In point of fact, your entire argument is lost on me, because I believe your basic premise, that the Bible is to be taken literally, is wrong. You're obviously a biblical literalist to some degree, and believe, for instance, that Revelation is a prediction for the future. It's not, it's a diatribe about the political and religious situation that existed at the time it was written, carefully couched in symbols and metaphors its readers--the seven churches it's addressed to--would have understood, for reasons that we would now call deniability.

Those symbols and metaphors are no longer familiar to us, so the book is a pretty hard and confusing thing to read. Anybody who pays attention to the news knows now that when a jihadist refers to The Great Satan these days, he means the United States. Similarly, the beast with the seven heads and ten horns in Revelation is the Roman Empire of the time. Apocalyptic writings are full of references like that, and if you don't know what they mean in the context of their times, you'll never make proper sense of them. Instead people will do what you've done, invent other meanings to suit some other agenda.

Then I guess it's a wait and see thing.
 

MHz

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If I became a christian could my cat go to heaven with me?
I don't think beasts of the field are allowed into heaven, depending on the fate of these sparrows you would likely have to wait until the waters flow from New Jerusalem out into the new earth.
M't:10:29: Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

There does seem to be a faster than normal 'explosion of life' when the new earth first comes into being.
Isa:60:22: A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Your question:
If I became a christian could my cat go to heaven with me?>>>darkbeaver

Noah is a similitude of Jesus, and Jesus came to save that which was lost.

I hope your cat is lost, so that He will join you in heaven.

Peace>>>AJ




 

MHz

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Revelation is a prediction for the future. It's not, it's a diatribe about the political and religious situation that existed at the time it was written, carefully couched in symbols and metaphors its readers--the seven churches it's addressed to--would have understood, for reasons that we would now call deniability.
I'll try to keep these short so as to not lose you.
Before Jesus ascended 40 days after His resurrection He said that only God knows when He would return. Under the premise that God doesn't do anything without it first being made known what He is going to do, there is going to be information given about His return. (Isa:42:9). Revelation was written close to the time the writer was to die of old-age.
Are you saying that if the things Revelation covers was not about things that are still future events that He should have kept that writer alive and only have it written down (shortly) before these things are made real?
Anything written about in Revelation is also covered in some detail in earlier NT text. Even finer detail of what the 7th trump brings is contained in OT text. As is what Satan does in those 42 months that precedes that, if you can understand Daniel 11.

Those symbols and metaphors are no longer familiar to us, so the book is a pretty hard and confusing thing to read. Anybody who pays attention to the news knows now that when a jihadist refers to The Great Satan these days, he means the United States. Similarly, the beast with the seven heads and ten horns in Revelation is the Roman Empire of the time. Apocalyptic writings are full of references like that, and if you don't know what they mean in the context of their times, you'll never make proper sense of them. Instead people will do what you've done, invent other meanings to suit some other agenda.
It's more confusing if you don't believe in God, in that belief in Angels (both Holy and fallen) also goes out the window. The book of Jude deals mostly with fallen angels, the last book before a book that deals with angels a lot, think that was an accident?
Revelation has some times given in it, those 3 sets of times are not back-to-back, they all end at the same time, the sound of the 7th trump.
Rome is mentioned, briefly, but 'old Rome' is not a factor, nor is there some sort of 'revived Rome'. Revelation covers the whole earth and everybody in it has some role or another in those last 3 1/2 years.
If you have seen a show like 'Crash', there are different views that all come together 'at the climax'. For Revelation that climax is is at the 7th trump, Christ's return.
 

dancing-loon

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Oct 8, 2007
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If I became a Christian could my cat go to heaven with me?
For you, Beaver, THEY would make the exception, I'm sure! Just to have you in heaven would be worth putting up with a few cats, even dogs!!!;-):lol::lol:
Just don't bring your snake, because I am scared of the creature!!!:p:cool:
 
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Dexter Sinister

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Are you saying that if the things Revelation covers was not about things that are still future events that He should have kept that writer alive and only have it written down (shortly) before these things are made real?
No, there's no "if" about it at all. I'm saying that Revelation is not about future events. It's about the political and religious situation around the end of the first century AD, at the time Domitian was the Roman Emperor--he was assassinated in 96--and running a major persecution of Christianity. Apocalyptic writings generally appear when the true believers are being oppressed and evil appears to be triumphant, so somebody feels it necessary to offer reassurance that god's not actually asleep at the switch, there's a plan being worked out, things will get better soon, and the oppressors will be destroyed. Revelation says right at the beginning, in the third verse, that the time is at hand; I don't see how you can logically stretch that far into the indefinite future, certainly not as far as our own time.

The apocalyptic chapters of Isaiah grew out of the same kind of thing: serious persecution of the Jews by the Seleucid Empire. The last half of Daniel is also about that, the Seleucid persecution under Antiochus. Since apocalyptic writings talk about the fall of empires that are then firmly in power, and there was no such thing as legitimate democratic dissent at the time, the writings were done in terms of myths and symbols the oppressed would understand but the foreign oppressors would not, to avoid charges of treason and sedition and the various nasty consequences of them. The four beasts Daniel identifies, for instance, are the four major powers in the area: the Chaldeans (the winged lion), the Medians (the bear), the Persians (the 4-headed leopard), and the Seleucids. That last isn't associated with an identified animal, but it's described as having 10 horns, then a little horn appears and three of the first 10 horns are uprooted. Each horn is a king in the Seleucid line, Antiochus is the little horn, he became king after a short civil war, he got rid of three pretenders, leaving seven, and he became the 8th king, Antiochus IV. The four heads of the leopard are four Persian kings, who come into the tale again later. And so it goes.

Most apocalyptic writings are readily explicable with known historical facts. But you do need to have a reference that tells you what they are. The Bible's not it.
 

look3467

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Thank you Dexter for that explanation. I even got some education out of it.
It always helps to learn something other than what is in the bible.

The bible uses instances in stories to form similitudes of what the spiritual work is being done.

For example, the 4 beasts with six wings in the Book of Revelation, though as you say were things happening at that time, are similarly used to present us with a spiritual message.
That picture is of the day that Jesus was crucified divided into four 6 hour periods aligning them with these four progressive periods
1.Introduction
2.the fall, or sin entering in
3 The judgment
4. Penalty of death and salvation.

These four are in perfect harmony with Jesus' day beginning at the Eve of Friday and ending the eve of Saturday.
Jesus at the last supper introduces to His Apostles what must "Shortly come to pass"= introduction, first quarter, 6pm to 12 midnight.

Jesus then goes to the garden to pray and receives on His shoulders the weight of the worlds sins, which then is His fall, in similitude to Adams fall, then arrested. After midnight, arrested, Jesus is taken and judgment is made on Him by four separate courts, punished and led to the cross.

The fourth period is death on the cross and salvation of all mankind begun, or attained.

So, though the message is written as like you say, for the times, the message of Gods work is hidden within them.

A literalistic view, take it to mean future instances, when it all took place that day.

Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

In the midst of darkness, (Lack of knowledge) that light will be introduced (New revelation) and that light shall be forever more.


Another example of many is the story of David the Giant killer. Whether it was real or not, the similitude in that is that Christ slayed the Giant, (The giant being the curse that plagued all mankind: spiritual death) and won life in our behalf.

Does that give you a clue as to where I am coming from, I mean, it is not the traditional view of things.

Peace>>>AJ