quebec get lost

[gopher]

Hey goph...Stop hijacking every thread for your own personal agenda. You come off like the radical fringe and your points are lost in the annoying clutter you create.

As if you don't have your own radical agenda. Yeah, right.:roll:

 

[Lester]

Not much would change anyway, they would probably keep the dollar, modify some laws, they already have their own pension plan, their own taxation system, doubt if you would need a passport- and we wouldn't have to send them equalization payments looks like a win win

 

[NorthrnMystique]

no way!
lets try to solve our problems and save canada!
of course there are radical seperatists, but if we shouldnt allow them to spoil the party for the rest of us.

 

[lone wolf]

Not much would change anyway, they would probably keep the dollar, modify some laws, they already have their own pension plan, their own taxation system, doubt if you would need a passport- and we wouldn't have to send them equalization payments looks like a win win

I say if they go, they're out completely. Sovereignty association is like having a joint account with the ex....

Woof!

 

[CDNBear]

So who's claim is the right one? A Mohawk could very well knock on my home and tell me to go away because this is where his great-great-great-great grandfather lived. But would he be right to do so? By that logic, all Natives should rule the Americas... But that's not realist. History left its mark and immigration from the rest of the world was overwhelming. The Natives lost most of the control over the land. Most of it was done out of brutal colonial methods, sadly enough. But are we all to pay for the sins and misfortunes of our ancesters?

I'm not talking about contemporary land claims, I'm referring to an agenda of mutual benefit, between the US and the Mohawk.

Yeah there are a couple of nuts in the seperatist movement that's for sure... as there are in almost any movement. There are feminist wackos... black movement wackos... native wackos... religious wackos...

I never said you had the lock on it. Only in Kebec, you seem to be abusing the privilege.

I honestly don't see how Quebec would want to change its global policy on how to deal with the St-Lawrence river. The US has always been a huge commercial trading partner, why would we want to change that? Quebecers don't want extremists as leaders... It won't happen.

Let's see...The Cree and Inu take back Ruperts land, if the Mohawk do not take the Seaway, then that will be Kebec's only resource.

Are ya following me here?

One resource...can you say 'profiteering'?

As a Side note on the Mohawk land-claim,

In international law, the Quebecers would have priority, having been there first and being there now (in Comparison to the Mohawk).

Mohawk territory was further south, being granted land by an occupying power (the Mohawks were loyalists) doesn't transfer rights beyond minority property rights anymore than Italy has a right to parts of France because Germany gave it to them.

The original Mohawk or 'People of the Flint', territory, as the 'Keepers of the Eastern door', ran from the Mohawk Valley in upstate NY, along the St. Lawrence, into Ontario.

They were not Loyalists, they were allied to the Francaise and broke the Great Peace with the rest of the 5 Nations..

As for civil war, I think this is a worst-case scenario that shouldn't be taken too seriously. Beyond the little FLQ stunt, modern Quebec's history of actual violence is minimal and I don't see any reason why that would change in the future, unless we were downright attacked by a foreign nation. Practically no one in Quebec is interested in using physical violence to further a cause unless it would reach a desperate point. A secession in the 21st century, in North America, should be allowed to happen peacefully, democratically and with adult negotiations.

You're talking about Quebecuois, that does not equate to 'adult'.

As if you don't have your own radical agenda. Yeah, right.:roll:

Really? Could you point it out to me? :roll:

 

[s_lone]

Let's see...The Cree and Inu take back Ruperts land, if the Mohawk do not take the Seaway, then that will be Kebec's only resource.

Are ya following me here?

One resource...can you say 'profiteering'?

OK... let's say we lose Ruperts land but keep the sea way... That would make us a country in size and population equivalent to let's say a mix between Finland, Sweden and Norway, countries with climate similar to ours. Finland is a ressource poor country and seems to manage quite fine... We don't often hear about poverty being a big problem over there... And as far as I know, the St-Lawrence valley isn't that ressource poor...

The problem I could see would be in the transition phase. The adaptation could very well mean some tough times... But not Ethiopia-famine style tough times... If Quebec would have become a country in 1980, I'm sure it would be doing quite fine today, with intelligent management. And don't give me your condescending crap about Quebecuois being un-intelligent...

We keep hearing Quebec couldn't manage on its own but that's bull****. Even with a diminished land, we'd be in a situation comparable to countries in the world that manage quite fine.

You're talking about Quebecuois, that does not equate to 'adult'.

I'll politely dismiss that as irrational prejudice that brings nothing constructive to the discussion.

 

[CDNBear]

OK... let's say we lose Ruperts land but keep the sea way... That would make us a country in size and population equivalent to let's say a mix between Finland, Sweden and Norway, countries with climate similar to ours. Finland is a ressource poor country and seems to manage quite fine...

timber, iron ore, copper, lead, zinc, chromite, nickel, gold, silver, limestone

Link

All of which, Kebec would no longer have.

We don't often hear about poverty being a big problem over there... And as far as I know, the St-Lawrence valley isn't that ressource poor...

And you think the Mohawk, the Wendat and the Algonkian are going to allow you to mine Uranium there?

Come on, get real!!!

The bulk of the resources are already on contested land.

The problem I could see would be in the transition phase. The adaptation could very well mean some tough times... But not Ethiopia-famine style tough times... If Quebec would have become a country in 1980, I'm sure it would be doing quite fine today, with intelligent management. And don't give me your condescending crap about Quebecuois being un-intelligent...

I doubt it. It would be mired in a contemporary French-Indian war.

I guarantee it.

I can post, and have posted a myriad of examples of the absolute stupidity and the obtuse nature of the Quebeuois. If you think separating is going to smarten up the unwashed French masses, you have another thing coming.

We keep hearing Quebec couldn't manage on its own but that's bull****. Even with a diminished land, we'd be in a situation comparable to countries in the world that manage quite fine.

Not with it's present infrastructure.

I'll politely dismiss that as irrational prejudice that brings nothing constructive to the discussion.

You can dismiss it all you want, but for the very same reasons that my community is nowhere near being ready or capable of governing themselves, the bulk of the inhabitants of Kebec are not ready either.

 

[s_lone]

I can post, and have posted a myriad of examples of the absolute stupidity and the obtuse nature of the Quebeuois. If you think separating is going to smarten up the unwashed French masses, you have another thing coming.

You can dismiss it all you want, but for the very same reasons that my community is nowhere near being ready or capable of governing themselves, the bulk of the inhabitants of Kebec are not ready either.

Absolute stupidity...? Grow up. I can smell the rot in your emotional wounds up to here.

You decided to isolate yourself from anything that's francophone. Your judgement on the intelligence of Quebecers is worthless.

If Quebecers aren't able to manage themselves then this is what they must aim for. A complacent Quebec nation being mothered by Canada is not what I want... I don't want that type of Quebec and I don't want that type of Canada either.

 

[CDNBear]

Absolute stupidity...? Grow up. I can smell the rot in your emotional wounds up to here.

No, what you smell is the idiocracy, that is rampant in Kebec. Not everyone is hell bent on being a Draconian gestapo totalitarian, but I've witnessed it first hand in the QPP/Circue du Kebec, the Courst, the bulk of the separatist movement and for certian, its politicians.

You decided to isolate yourself from anything that's francophone.

I speak to my Mother constantly. I visit my relatives on and off res regularly. Hell, I even served in the all French Royal 22e. I didn't isolate myself, I was subjugated. There's a world of difference. The fact you can not see it, only makes me wonder about your ability to be objective and impartial if and when the faitful day comes.

Your judgement on the intelligence of Quebecers is worthless.

I think not, it's based on years of living there, serving there and leaving there. Then compounded by years of listening to the tripe that flows freely out of there.

If Quebecers aren't able to manage themselves then this is what they must aim for. A complacent Quebec nation being mothered by Canada is not what I want... I don't want that type of Quebec and I don't want that type of Canada either.

s_lone...remember The Plains of Abraham.

 

[s_lone]

No, what you smell is the idiocracy, that is rampant in Kebec. Not everyone is hell bent on being a Draconian gestapo totalitarian, but I've witnessed it first hand in the QPP/Circue du Kebec, the Courst, the bulk of the separatist movement and for certian, its politicians.

Oh... You must be refering to the man with a machine gun that comes every morning to give me my daily bag of rice... Or maybe you're refering to that time I got whipped 100 times for saying out loud that I would prefer to see Canada reform itself than for Quebec to seperate!

Or maybe to the fact that my brother's in jail for being openly gay. He must be happy now!:lol:

Seriously, we must have a very different conception of what totalitarian means...

I speak to my Mother constantly. I visit my relatives on and off res regularly. Hell, I even served in the all French Royal 22e. I didn't isolate myself, I was subjugated. There's a world of difference. The fact you can not see it, only makes me wonder about your ability to be objective and impartial if and when the faitful day comes.

Well don't condemn an entire society for the sins of a few bigots.The fact that you can't see how you're blinded by your own personal experiences makes me wonder about your ability to make an objective judgment on the French speaking population of Quebec.

I think not, it's based on years of living there, serving there and leaving there. Then compounded by years of listening to the tripe that flows freely out of there.

I've lived among Québecois for 26 years and am surrounded by intelligent, sensible and thoughtful people. Excuse me for not taking you too seriously.

s_lone...remember The Plains of Abraham.

Yeah... I remember sliding down slopes in the winter... building an igloo with my dad... I remember me as a teen playing guitar against a tree on a beautiful sunny day looking at all the beautiful women in bikinis playing frisbee:headbang:

Man I love the Plains of Abraham...But of course all these beautiful memories are there because the Plains of Abraham is managed by the oh-so-benevolent Federal Government... These were the only moments of freedom and liberty I've ever known... As soon as I'd get out, the nightmare of totalitarian Quebec would start again...

I've got to stop posting now... I'm almost past my daily quota of internet upload allowed by the provincial government!

 

[gopher]

If self determination for Kosovo is OK then it is the same for everyone else. The right of self determination is not to be infringed by anyone. In fact, this formed the basis for the creation of the USA. Therefore, if you support the USA and its policies, then you must support majority rule everywhere else. If this is what citizens in Quebec want for themselves, then so be it. Anything less is total hypocrisy and clearly proves that its opponents have a destructive and nonsensical agenda.

 

[CDNBear]

Oh... You must be refering to the man with a machine gun that comes every morning to give me my daily bag of rice... Or maybe you're refering to that time I got whipped 100 times for saying out loud that I would prefer to see Canada reform itself than for Quebec to seperate!

Yep, that's who I be referring to.

Or maybe to the fact that my brother's in jail for being openly gay. He must be happy now!:lol:

Bingo again.

Seriously, we must have a very different conception of what totalitarian means...

I'm speaking of when the moderation of the whole of the nation is removed.

Well don't condemn an entire society for the sins of a few bigots.The fact that you can't see how you're blinded by your own personal experiences makes me wonder about your ability to make an objective judgment on the French speaking population of Quebec.

I didn't. I condemned the Quebeuois.

I've lived among Québecois for 26 years and am surrounded by intelligent, sensible and thoughtful people. Excuse me for not taking you too seriously.

That's right, I've lived, learned and served along side Quebecois as well and you wouldbe quite right about them...not to mention my Mommies quite a sweety.

Yeah... I remember sliding down slopes in the winter... building an igloo with my dad... I remember me as a teen playing guitar against a tree on a beautiful sunny day looking at all the beautiful women in bikinis playing frisbee:headbang:

Oh those Kebec hotties...Ya gotta love dem.

Man I love the Plains of Abraham...But of course all these beautiful memories are there because the Plains of Abraham is managed by the oh-so-benevolent Federal Government... These were the only moments of freedom and liberty I've ever known... As soon as I'd get out, the nightmare of totalitarian Quebec would start again...

Jest as you wish, but the French lost. They've been happily suckling a the teet of Kanata for so long, now they wish to suckle and get a hand job...greedy bastards.

I've got to stop posting now... I'm almost past my daily quota of internet upload allowed by the provincial government!

Sorry to hear that. Over here in the Free RoC, we get unlimited internet access.

Come to the 'light' side s_lone.

If self determination for Kosovo is OK then it is the same for everyone else. The right of self determination is not to be infringed by anyone. In fact, this formed the basis for the creation of the USA. Therefore, if you support the USA and its policies, then you must support majority rule everywhere else. If this is what citizens in Quebec want for themselves, then so be it. Anything less is total hypocrisy and clearly proves that its opponents have a destructive and nonsensical agenda.

The Kosovan Parliament's declaration of independence Sunday must leave a lot of Canadians wondering why Quebec's Assemblee Nationale can't do the same thing.
The answer is: International and Canadian law.
Since the 1930s, international law has recognized four general criteria of statehood: Defined territory, a permanent population, an effective government and the ability to conduct foreign relations.
But a fifth criterion -- recognition by other countries -- often helps to tip the balance even though it is not necessary to confirm a state's legal existence.
Both Quebec and Kosovo appear to meet the first four criteria, but only Kosovo is likely to satisfy the fifth.

Link

 

[lone wolf]

Kosovo, unlike Quebec, has been the mass burial ground for murdered innocents. Therein is the difference.

Woof!

 

[s_lone]

I didn't. I condemned the Quebeuois.

That's right, I've lived, learned and served along side Quebecois as well and you wouldbe quite right about them...not to mention my Mommies quite a sweety.

You must forgive my 'temper' CDNBear... I keep forgetting that when you spell 'Quebecuois' the special way you do, you're refering to a specific sort of Quebecers and not all French speaking Quebecers... My bad... Please accept my apologies for giving you a little fit!

 

[s_lone]

Kosovo, unlike Quebec, has been the mass burial ground for murdered innocents. Therein is the difference.

Woof!

Thank you for pointing this out Lone Wolf... While there are some similarities between Quebec and Kosovo, the differences are also striking.

I like to think that if ever Quebec did vote YES in a referendum, the following consequences would be non-violent, because of the long history of non-violence Canada and Quebec have.

 

[CDNBear]

You must forgive my 'temper' CDNBear... I keep forgetting that when you spell 'Quebecuois' the special way you do, you're refering to a specific sort of Quebecers and not all French speaking Quebecers... My bad... Please accept my apologies for giving you a little fit!

Your reaction would have to have been unjustified to be needing of an apology.

I know I grate on your nerves, so I took what you said with that in mind and thought nothing of it.

I still stand by my opinion of you being the most logical, intelligent and reasonable 'separatist' I've ever had the pleasure of discussing this with.

That said s_lone...That distinction I place on certain individuals within the separatist movement, worry me. Their blind eye towords Natives, their seemingly dismissive attitude towords our concerns and the the arrogant continued view that we will follow along like sheep, drives me up the wall.

If they weren't so numerous and so blatant, I would take a much different stand.

I'm afraid certian folk would take their new found freedom and create a mandate of exclusion and subjugation, that would end in bloodshed.